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Userid,
Your reasoning does not seem to match events on the ground. Whether JR or FW found JonBenet seems less important that that she was found.

JR's take on it has to be, he never knew if FW would ever find JonBenet, so by default he had to.

JR wanted JonBenet found otherwise he would have attempted to search the house and find nothing, i.e. everyone else had including FW!

.

I'd say yours don't match, actually -- unless you believe that JR had ESP and knew that LA would tell both him and an "eyewitness" to search the cellar together, giving him the perfect scenario to "find" JBR. Again, he didn't. When LA told him that, he panicked.

And I'll state again: I disagree with this premise that JR "wanted" the body found. He didn't. He wouldn't have hid the body as long as he did (especially in your scenario, where he's moving the body from hiding place to hiding place) and he wouldn't have tried to skip town if he wanted the body found -- as long as we're on reasoning that "doesn't match events on the ground."
 
I'd say yours don't match, actually -- unless you believe that JR had ESP and knew that LA would tell both him and an "eyewitness" to search the cellar together, giving him the perfect scenario to "find" JBR. Again, he didn't. When LA told him that, he panicked.

And I'll state again: I disagree with this premise that JR "wanted" the body found. He didn't. He wouldn't have hid the body as long as he did (especially in your scenario, where he's moving the body from hiding place to hiding place) and he wouldn't have tried to skip town if he wanted the body found -- as long as we're on reasoning that "doesn't match events on the ground."

Userid,
You can disagree with the premise but that JR elected to find JonBenet actually demonstrates it.

he wouldn't have tried to skip town if he wanted the body found
Once he had skipped town he would not have bothered if JonBenet was found, he was gone and only an extradition warrant would have brought him back.

Once he was denied his escape flight JR must have thought if he found JonBenet then he might be able to control some of the evidence issues?

It was plan B, otherwise the best case scenario is that he and Patsy would be left with a decomposing body in the wine-cellar, and with the world's media camped outside, then what?

JR was originally hidden to fake an abduction scenario, no ransom note meant she could have been left lying on her bed or down in the basement as the victim of an psychopathic intruder.

If JR had not wanted JonBenet found he would have conducted a search that avoided the wine-cellar, its that simple!

.
 
Userid,
You can disagree with the premise but that JR elected to find JonBenet actually demonstrates it.

.

No it doesn't. That's your interpretation. My interpretation is that he panicked.

Also, again, he couldn't simply "avoid the wine cellar" after LA had just told him and FW to search the house from top to bottom. They were in the kitchen when she told him that, on top of it. If he tried to avoid the basement and/or the cellar, he would have looked too suspicious.

Also, I think you're confused how extradition works in this country. If he left the country, then yeah, perhaps extradition would have been a problem; but leaving the state wouldn't have been a problem to get him back to Colorado at all.
 
I'm a new poster.

I believe that JR found Jonbenet earlier in the morning and that he went to the wine cellar first because it had been eating away at him and he needed to bring it to a head.

I don't believe he was seeking to leave the country or the state. In fact, I believe most of JR's behaviour that morning actually points to his innocence.
 
Rain on my Parade,
If you read the Ramsey interviews its really some of JR's claims that jump out at you. e.g. JR says :
June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane

The closet is the wine-cellar and JR is suggesting he hid stuff in there, i.e. him alone, he that found the body!

Then there is JR's claim that he moved the Samsonite suitcase from upstairs to downstairs in the basement. Why would he bother, he has a housemaid for that kind of stuff, I doubt BPD believed that at all?


So that the Ramsey's could control, through their attorneys/lawyers etc, exactly what went into the public domain, they knew they might be dealing with Murder In The First Degree charges.

Great to hear you made it to Boulder. Its amazing the house has not been demolished, in other famous homicides, e.g. the West's, the local council bulldozed the house and tarmacked it over.

I'm not certain what the property laws are in Boulder, but in some states you have to tell prospective buyers if anything unusual happened in the house for sale, i.e. a homicide, as this effects the resale value.

The more notorious the homicide the larger is the depreciation in value, and it never goes away.

Although there might never be a court case, I think we will find out what happened, as with other famous cases there will be a drip feed of nuggets of information, think about all those jurors who reckon they know who did what and why?

.
Very interesting insight about the closet! I recall there being additional gifts found opened in the cellar i.e. Christmas Barbie. I have always felt that Jennie’s bloomies were there as well. It just seemed odd to me that he was directed to search top to bottom and he heads straight for the wine cellar, plus he mentioned to SL that he had found JB earlier then he brought her upstairs. And LA noticed him being jittery after being lost for over an hour. Tie this all together and I came up with he needed JB to be found.
I wondered the exact same thing when JR said he moved the suitcase to the basement.
The house has a famous evangelist’s daughter that lives there. She has never believed in the house being haunted and says it is her family’s home. They have tried to sell several times but to no avail. She was standing on the sidewalk at the edge of her property when I was there taking pictures. She didn’t speak, just watched me. Would have loved to have gone inside. There was a guy walking his dog and I pulled over and asked him if he knew where the house was. He wasn’t even aware of it being there. Finally after me driving around in circles and him making phone calls that he pointed the house out to me. I then got out to take pictures and he said to me that I shouldn’t impose. Boulder is different.
I can’t wait to hear the jurors opinions!
 
No it doesn't. That's your interpretation. My interpretation is that he panicked.

Also, again, he couldn't simply "avoid the wine cellar" after LA had just told him and FW to search the house from top to bottom. They were in the kitchen when she told him that, on top of it. If he tried to avoid the basement and/or the cellar, he would have looked too suspicious.

Also, I think you're confused how extradition works in this country. If he left the country, then yeah, perhaps extradition would have been a problem; but leaving the state wouldn't have been a problem to get him back to Colorado at all.

Userid,
You have not explained why JR would panic and why this would lead him to find JonBenet rather than leave her in place, hoping she was not found, there is no guarantee she would have been found.

Assuming JR never moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar, i.e. she was there all the time, and that FW missed her, and JR was hoping the focus would move elsewhere so that JonBenet would not be found.

Its difficult to understand why JR would suddenly decide, Hey, I better find JonBenet?
 
Very interesting insight about the closet! I recall there being additional gifts found opened in the cellar i.e. Christmas Barbie. I have always felt that Jennie’s bloomies were there as well. It just seemed odd to me that he was directed to search top to bottom and he heads straight for the wine cellar, plus he mentioned to SL that he had found JB earlier then he brought her upstairs. And LA noticed him being jittery after being lost for over an hour. Tie this all together and I came up with he needed JB to be found.
I wondered the exact same thing when JR said he moved the suitcase to the basement.
The house has a famous evangelist’s daughter that lives there. She has never believed in the house being haunted and says it is her family’s home. They have tried to sell several times but to no avail. She was standing on the sidewalk at the edge of her property when I was there taking pictures. She didn’t speak, just watched me. Would have loved to have gone inside. There was a guy walking his dog and I pulled over and asked him if he knew where the house was. He wasn’t even aware of it being there. Finally after me driving around in circles and him making phone calls that he pointed the house out to me. I then got out to take pictures and he said to me that I shouldn’t impose. Boulder is different.
I can’t wait to hear the jurors opinions!

Rain on my Parade,
On the Partially Opened Gifts, here is my take. Patsy says she opened the gifts to check the contents, but she says she also wrapped them, so she must have known what is them, i.e. she is lying.

The size-12's were probably never in the wine-cellar, possibly located elsewhere in the basement, e.g. where Patsy was wrapping?

Neither John or Patsy would have dressed JonBenet in the size-12's, they would have known they would represent a red flag.

Patsy says she gave the size-12's to JonBenet but none were found in her underwear drawer or even the whole house, i.e. they walked out of the house! Again Patsy is lying, so who is she covering for?

John says he put some gifts into the wine-cellar and Patsy did not know about this, so who is telling the truth Patsy or John, or neither?

If you are the parents why would you dress your daughter in oversized underwear when you could just walk up the stairs and fetch a pair of size-6 underwear from her bathroom drawer, remember Patsy said she was in there, that she selected Burke's longjohns, so she had the opportunity to dress JonBenet normally?

Who thinks Patsy returned from New York and over a glass or two of wine told John how she purchased this cute Bloomingdale's underwear for JonBenet and Jenny, would John have cared less?

Point being someone other than the parents redressed JonBenet in the size-12's, else minimally they would have left the remaining pairs in her underwear drawer or in the basement?

JR realized if he did not find JonBenet then he and Patsy would become prime suspects if she was then found at later point in time in the house, so he decided to find her?

The Samsonite suitcase was likely used to transport incriminating items from upstairs down to the basement, even if only to be used in staging. John has no interest in housework or moving suitcases about his house, he is a CEO,not a maid. So the suitcase narrative is just another cover story.

They have tried to sell several times but to no avail.
Big surprise, few folks want the media attention. I'll bet once they find out its the house in which JonBenet was molested and murdered its just Lets not go there the Yuk factor is so emotionally repulsive?

.
 
When jurors opinions will be unsealed I wonder?


Beltonian,
Here is how to parse it all: Once JR leaves us, it will be open season on new documentaries, witness interviews, etc. Boat loads of money will be involved, lots of $$ for new information, that can be syndicated across the networks.

JR's reputation cannot be litigated on once he is dead, so jurors who want to speak out can.

If the BPD want to unseal evidence or demote the JonBenet homicide from its status as a cold case then they can, there are many examples from other cases.

If none of that happens or BPD go after jurors for talking in public, despite two of the main suspects being dead, then you know by default that the case is BDI!

.
 
Rain on my Parade,
On the Partially Opened Gifts, here is my take. Patsy says she opened the gifts to check the contents, but she says she also wrapped them, so she must have known what is them, i.e. she is lying.

The size-12's were probably never in the wine-cellar, possibly located elsewhere in the basement, e.g. where Patsy was wrapping?

Neither John or Patsy would have dressed JonBenet in the size-12's, they would have known they would represent a red flag.

Patsy says she gave the size-12's to JonBenet but none were found in her underwear drawer or even the whole house, i.e. they walked out of the house! Again Patsy is lying, so who is she covering for?

John says he put some gifts into the wine-cellar and Patsy did not know about this, so who is telling the truth Patsy or John, or neither?

If you are the parents why would you dress your daughter in oversized underwear when you could just walk up the stairs and fetch a pair of size-6 underwear from her bathroom drawer, remember Patsy said she was in there, that she selected Burke's longjohns, so she had the opportunity to dress JonBenet normally?

Who thinks Patsy returned from New York and over a glass or two of wine told John how she purchased this cute Bloomingdale's underwear for JonBenet and Jenny, would John have cared less?

Point being someone other than the parents redressed JonBenet in the size-12's, else minimally they would have left the remaining pairs in her underwear drawer or in the basement?

JR realized if he did not find JonBenet then he and Patsy would become prime suspects if she was then found at later point in time in the house, so he decided to find her?

The Samsonite suitcase was likely used to transport incriminating items from upstairs down to the basement, even if only to be used in staging. John has no interest in housework or moving suitcases about his house, he is a CEO,not a maid. So the suitcase narrative is just another cover story.


Big surprise, few folks want the media attention. I'll bet once they find out its the house in which JonBenet was molested and murdered its just Lets not go there the Yuk factor is so emotionally repulsive?

.

I think they were both lying about the contents in the wine cellar; as their interviews contradict one another.

Yes, I may possibly put a size 12 underwear on my 6 year old daughter if I was trying to be misleading. PR and BR touch dna were found on the Barbie gown in the wine cellar. Why?

Most men couldn’t care less about women buying underwear and/or for whom; IMO.

I believe the suitcase is part of the cover but not exactly sure how it fits in; since it contents were from JAR. Do you suspect possible involvement from JAR here?

Emotionally repulsive home except for those that are at peace with the murder and no lingering spiritual residue. Least that’s the owners take. Odd for sure!
 
I think they were both lying about the contents in the wine cellar; as their interviews contradict one another.

Yes, I may possibly put a size 12 underwear on my 6 year old daughter if I was trying to be misleading. PR and BR touch dna were found on the Barbie gown in the wine cellar. Why?

Most men couldn’t care less about women buying underwear and/or for whom; IMO.

I believe the suitcase is part of the cover but not exactly sure how it fits in; since it contents were from JAR. Do you suspect possible involvement from JAR here?

Emotionally repulsive home except for those that are at peace with the murder and no lingering spiritual residue. Least that’s the owners take. Odd for sure!

Rain on my Parade,
I think they were both lying about the contents in the wine cellar; as their interviews contradict one another.
I agree with you. The reason they lie about the wine-cellar contents is that they both knew no intruder would redress JonBenet in size-12's, remove her pink barbie gown, never mind leave it in the wine-cellar, open the gifts, etc. So they have a cover story about the wine-cellar being used for whatever despite LHP and family going in and out of the wine-cellar prior to Christmas, i.e. they knew what was in there!

Yes, I may possibly put a size 12 underwear on my 6 year old daughter if I was trying to be misleading. PR and BR touch dna were found on the Barbie gown in the wine cellar. Why?
The reason I mention the size-12's and JR in the same breath is that JR never knew anything about those size-12's, i.e. he would not know they existed even if he was responsible for JonBenet's injuries?

The touch-dna is not a red-flag other than no foreign touch-dna is reported, suggesting both Patsy and Burke had contact with JonBenet either before she was killed or/and afterwards?

James Kolar, Foreign Faction, Excerpt
I learned, over the course of my inquiry, that it was Burke who had actually been responsible for tearing back the paper of the presents while playing in the basement on Christmas Day, and I wondered why Patsy would claim responsibility for doing this. Patsy had also told investigators that the unwrapped box of Lego toys in the same room was being hidden for Burke's upcoming January birthday.

I didn?t give much thought about the presence of Christmas presents in the room at the time, but would later think these played a role in some of the events that took place on Christmas day.

I wonder what events Kolar is thinking about? So if Burke opened the gifts, did he also open the size-12's, did he tell JonBenet about them, etc, maybe he took her down to show her more Christmas gifts?

There might be missing Christmas Gifts precisely because they played some role in JonBenet's death, so these gifts are unreported?


I believe the suitcase is part of the cover but not exactly sure how it fits in; since it contents were from JAR. Do you suspect possible involvement from JAR here?
Its possible, could be the cutesy collection of JonBenet photographs belonged to JAR, there are reports he was infatuated with JonBenet, but this could just be media speculation? Minimally the suitcase was a transport mechanism, else why bother with it, there are also reports that fibers from items in the suitcase were found on JonBenet's gap top?

Then there is the missing Christmas Video, why: because some gift(s) being opened Christmas Morning have since vanished?

.
 
UK Guy, so (thinking aloud) John did nor dress JB in size 12 panties because he simply did not know about their existence , the third person who might be responsible For JB death most likely did not know about them either...Patsy was the only one who knew (she bought them)...What they tried to show by this part of staging? Thanks...
 
UK Guy, so (thinking aloud) John did nor dress JB in size 12 panties because he simply did not know about their existence , the third person who might be responsible For JB death most likely did not know about them either...Patsy was the only one who knew (she bought them)...What they tried to show by this part of staging? Thanks...

Beltonian,
So Patsy says she placed the size-12s into JonBenet's underwear drawer, that's the explanation for JonBenet wearing Patsy's nieces underwear.

Atlanta 2000 BPD Interview Patsy Ramsey, Excerpt
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see

10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?

11 THE WITNESS: No.

12 MS. HARMER: But you specifically

13 remember her putting on the bigger pair?

14 And I am not saying --

15 THE WITNESS: They were just in

16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I

17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all

18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can

19 help herself to whatever is in there.

20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not

21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to

22 Jenny.

23 THE WITNESS: Right.

24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in

25 JonBenet's bathroom?

0087

1 A. Right.

Later in the same interview Patsy is told:
Atlanta 2000 BPD Interview Patsy Ramsey, Excerpt
1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you

2 aware that these were the size of panties

3 that she was wearing, and this has been

4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they

5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of

6 that?

7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.

8 Q. And how did you become aware of

9 that?

10 A. Something I read, I am sure.

11 Q. And I will just state a fact

12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties

13 taken out of, by the police, out of

14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is

15 that where she kept -

16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

17 Q. -- where you were describing that

18 they were just put in that drawer?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was

21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?

22 Would that have been about the size pair of

23 panties that she wore when she was six years

24 old?

25 A. I would say more like six to

0094

1 eight. There were probably some in there

2 that were too small.

3 Q. Okay. But not size 12 to 14?

4 A. Not typically, no.

5 MR. KANE: Okay.

6 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And you

7 understand the reason we are asking this, we

8 want to make sure that this intruder did not

9 bring these panties with him, this was

Now you would think if Patsy redressed JonBenet in the size-12's that she would make sure the remaining pairs ended up in JonBenet's underwear drawer?

But BPD investigators say no size-12's were found in her drawer or anywhere else in the house!

Patsy's story regarding the size-12's is just a cover story, someone else redressed JonBenet in them.
 
So the third someone saw a pack of size 12 underwear in wine cellar and decided to redress JB after he drugged or carried her there. If its true that Patsy really bought them and stored them in a cellar. Later this third person disposed of remaining pack of size 12 panties...
Who they cover for? JAR or someone else...
 
So the third someone saw a pack of size 12 underwear in wine cellar and decided to redress JB after he drugged or carried her there. If its true that Patsy really bought them and stored them in a cellar. Later this third person disposed of remaining pack of size 12 panties...
Who they cover for? JAR or someone else...

Beltonian,
That's about the size of it. One thing to consider is that the size-12's were originally not stored in the wine-cellar!

What probably happened is that forensic evidence that the parents thought looked questionable was placed in the wine-cellar, i.e. out sight?

So Patsy purchased the size-12's for her niece Jenny from Bloomingdale on her New York trip, but why would she need to put them in the wine-cellar, what would be the point of that?

So if you do not accept Kolar's full BDI, then someone with knowledge of the size-12's went down to the basement and took them back upstairs to redress JonBenet?

Which allows the speculation that JonBenet's original assault might have taken place in a bedroom other than her own, since access to her underwear would have been at hand?

One Ramsey is on record saying he returned back downstairs after everyone else was in their bedroom!
 
It makes sense that only presents that were bought for JB or BR would be hidden in cellar, so they would not find them ahead of time, the rest of presents ( for niece included) would be stored someplace else, like parents bedroom closet or more likely in spare bedroom...

IIRC it was Burke who admitted it...Hmm...Thought I totally believe that he was capable of killing JB ( by accident), I do not think he would redress her, especially in underwear that were stored in spare bedroom...Unless Burke and JB happened to be in that particular bedroom that night doing whatever they were doing...Hm...
 
It makes sense that only presents that were bought for JB or BR would be hidden in cellar, so they would not find them ahead of time, the rest of presents ( for niece included) would be stored someplace else, like parents bedroom closet or more likely in spare bedroom...

IIRC it was Burke who admitted it...Hmm...Thought I totally believe that he was capable of killing JB ( by accident), I do not think he would redress her, especially in underwear that were stored in spare bedroom...Unless Burke and JB happened to be in that particular bedroom that night doing whatever they were doing...Hm...

Beltonian,
The gifts placed in the wine-cellar by either john or/and Patsy, take your pick, were said to be Burke's Birthday Gifts, nothing to do with Christmas.

The Partially Opened Gifts have just been dumped in the wine-cellar, out of sight, for whatever reason?

Kolar's implicit speculation is that on Christmas Day Afternoon when Burke was searching the basement, he came across the size-12's when opening the Partially Opened Gifts, which he probably discounted, unless he told JonBenet?

So later on Christmas Day Evening when Burke needs underwear that looks like the alleged Bloomingdale Wednesday Day Of The Week that JonBenet likely wore, i.e. it was a Wednesday, he elected to return down to the basement so he could redress JonBenet in them?


Unless Burke and JB happened to be in that particular bedroom that night doing whatever they were doing...Hm...
Could be, its a scenario as good as any other?

The aspect of BDI that is questionable is did Burke relocate JonBenet down to the basement, and then redress JonBenet in the size-12's?

I'm convinced neither of the parents dressed JonBenet in the size-12's, since the remaining pairs vanished, and both parents would have known that would be an immediate red flag for BPD, given that the motive was to stage a credible crime-scene.

So there is something missing from the current BDI which links the size-12's to JonBenet's staging and the rationale for their use?

.
 
I'm convinced neither of the parents dressed JonBenet in the size-12's, since the remaining pairs vanished, and both parents would have known that would be an immediate red flag for BPD, given that the motive was to stage a credible crime-scene.

So there is something missing from the current BDI which links the size-12's to JonBenet's staging and the rationale for their use?

In the heat of the moment, one might not consider how big the underwear were.

One explanation could be that the oversized underwear were unwrapped, the appropriate day was taken out, Jonbenets underpants were put back in the packet and the packet was re-wrapped as a gift.

Perhaps it was then removed from the house as a Christmas gift by Pam Paugh?
 
I'm a new poster.

I believe that JR found Jonbenet earlier in the morning and that he went to the wine cellar first because it had been eating away at him and he needed to bring it to a head.

I don't believe he was seeking to leave the country or the state. In fact, I believe most of JR's behaviour that morning actually points to his innocence.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's a fact that he was on the phone trying to arrange a flight for his family out of the state hours before he found the body.
 
Userid,
You have not explained why JR would panic and why this would lead him to find JonBenet rather than leave her in place, hoping she was not found, there is no guarantee she would have been found.

Assuming JR never moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar, i.e. she was there all the time, and that FW missed her, and JR was hoping the focus would move elsewhere so that JonBenet would not be found.

Its difficult to understand why JR would suddenly decide, Hey, I better find JonBenet?

Yes I have -- he panicked because he wasn't relying on having to search the basement again and because FW was with him. He couldn't try to prevent FW from searching the cellar because that would have made him look suspicious. The only time he searched the basement before being told to search it with someone else, was by himself. That's why he panicked: because FW was with him and he felt it was only a matter of time before FW found the body, as JR knew FW was familar with the cellar.

Before, you were suggesting that JBR's body was moved to the cellar; now, you're suggesting she wasn't. Which is it?

Either way, whether she was there or moved there, he panicked all the same.
 
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