Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

[wasnt_me]

Because Guede required only the most rudimentary of police work to apprehend, and because once apprehended he had a clear motive and was additionally already on file for previous criminal activity. They matched a fingerprint and voila, they had their man, who subsequently confessed to being at the scene of the crime.
The police work used to nail AK and RS was the opposite of rudimentary. It involved controversial forensics techniques such as LCN DNA analysis, equally shaky "intuition" based on Amanda swiveling her hips and judging a knife looked too clean, and a multitude of results derived from methods that can best be described as dubious - which we've listed a million times already.

And it also took deciding that there was a simulated break-in and a real--no sorry--simulated sex act.

 

[Malkmus]

Good point! Guede and Knox both confessed to being at the scene. Evidence supported their confessions. By Sollecito placing himself with Knox, he also placed himself at the scene. Evidence supports this as well.

The difference with them confessing to being at the scene of the crime is that they haven't maintained that story as Rudy has. And the evidence used to tie them to it is currently under review. We'll just have to see how it pans out.

 

[Malkmus]

OR

She might not have planned to eat at all. I skipped meals a lot when I was younger or I grabbed fast food, or I even ate at the restaurant where I worked. RS could have said to her, hey, now we have time to make dinner instead of you grabbing something at the bar while you're working.

That was actually on the tip of my tongue as well. It's just as likely that Amanda just planned on eating at the bar she worked at. There's no way of knowing, and another reason we can't label the dinner time as a lie.

 

[otto]

<modsnip>. She didn't have to be at work until ten o' clock. She could have been planning on eating dinner as late as 9:30. Patrick told her she didn't have to work at 8:18. So after 8:18 she could have planned to eat dinner even later than 9:30. Her start time at work and the text from Patrick mean she could have planned on eating any time that night, basically.

Knox should be able to relate dinner to other time commitments. If I have to work at 7:30 AM, I know when I have to get up, eat and be dressed in order to arrive at work at the correct time. I have no doubt that Knox was aware of how she had to schedule her evening in order to eat before going to work. I do not see any reason for an employed university student to be completely befuddled about what time she ate dinner when she has to schedule her time in order to eat before work. We are talking about someone who suggested that she was deprived of food and water when she signed a police statement at 1:45 AM even though she ate earlier in the evening at 10 or 10:30 PM. Obviously she needs to eat at regular intervals so I don't see her not planning her pre-work meal, or being all confused about when she ate.

 

[wasnt_me]

Otto, Judge Hellman has stated that the review of the DNA evidence is needed to remove an reasonable doubt. That means that if the DNA evidence fails there is still reasonable doubt in this case. Just something to keep in mind.

Hopefully, the judge will allow the review of the computer debacle, because it's critical to establishing alibi. That along with the TOD.

I'd also like to see a new look at that footprint in the bathroom. If they throw out te bra clasp, with the "innocently placed unknown DNA on it," then the barefoot print is the only other thing possibily linking RS, right?

I personally think that with RG, the real super witness, placing the murder at 930pm rules AK and RS out all by itself.

 

[wasnt_me]

That was actually on the tip of my tongue as well. It's just as likely that Amanda just planned on eating at the bar she worked at. There's no way of knowing, and another reason we can't label the dinner time as a lie.

Yep, and after agreeing to cook, one of them could have said, "Oh, but not in this dirty kitchen," and they started washing dishes and the leak happened. Then the father called. The friend might have stopped by as RS was cleaning himself up from the water spill because I read somewhere that he was in the bathroom and AK talked to the friend.

And about that water spill and the mop, I did a lot of reading of articles on the case going back to day one. I did it last night, and i saw nothing about the mop bucket up till the time of RG's arrest. Granted, I couldn't possibily read EVERYTHING, but a lot of the papers repeated each other's information, too, so I thought that was strange.

 

[Malkmus]

As far as I can recall, on the night that he and Knox were detained Sollecito said that he had told investigators a "load of rubbish". He said that he was misled by Knox into lying for her. Knox did not admit to deliberately lying, instead she claimed that after 2 hours of questioning she was forced to accuse an innocent man of murder. She was found guilty of lying about the investigators. Her parent's trial for repeating those false statements in the UK is set for July 4, 2011.

Sollecito has never changed his statement about being unable to confirm that Knox was at his apartment during the night of the murder.

Raf wrote in his diary on November 18th:

Thinking and reconstructing, I think that she always remained with me; the only thing I do not
remember exactly is if she went out for a few minutes in the early evening.
I am convinced that she could not have killed Meredith and then come back home.

So the only time she may have gone out was "early evening", as in before the murder took place. And she was with him the rest of the night, and he is convinced she didn't kill Meredith.

 

[Allusonz]

NOw that you mention it, that video I posted looks funny and like it jumps just before RG is seen. Maybe someone edited it....?

IIRC RG was seen 2 times once about 7:41 the other time was around 8:30. It was some time prior to MK arriving home

 

[Malkmus]

Knox should be able to relate dinner to other time commitments. If I have to work at 7:30 AM, I know when I have to get up, eat and be dressed in order to arrive at work at the correct time. I have no doubt that Knox was aware of how she had to schedule her evening in order to eat before going to work. I do not see any reason for an employed university student to be completely befuddled about what time she ate dinner when she has to schedule her time in order to eat before work. We are talking about someone who suggested that she was deprived of food and water when she signed a police statement at 1:45 AM even though she ate earlier in the evening at 10 or 10:30 PM. Obviously she needs to eat at regular intervals so I don't see her not planning her pre-work meal, or being all confused about when she ate.

<modsnip> I don't think you realize why it doesn't add up. She didn't have to work until ten that night. If she had planned on eating before going in to work(which you have no way of knowing) she may have been planning on eating as late as 9:30, but Patrick told her at 8:18 not to come in, blowing any planned dinner time out of the water. <modsnip>

 

[otto]

Otto, Judge Hellman has stated that the review of the DNA evidence is needed to remove an reasonable doubt. That means that if the DNA evidence fails there is still reasonable doubt in this case. Just something to keep in mind.

I am looking forward to the review of the DNA analysis! The entire case could fall apart, or it could stand on other evidence. The bathmat print, staged break-in, etc ... this evidence is not going to disappear easily.

 

[otto]

OR

She might not have planned to eat at all. I skipped meals a lot when I was younger or I grabbed fast food, or I even ate at the restaurant where I worked. RS could have said to her, hey, now we have time to make dinner instead of you grabbing something at the bar while you're working.

We know she planned to eat ... because she did have dinner at about 8:20 PM that night.

 

[wasnt_me]

IIRC RG was seen 2 times once about 7:41 the other time was around 8:30. It was some time prior to MK arriving home

Right, but that video I posted shows MK first. Then after a while it jumps and shows RG once, as if he was following her. So yeah, I think the one I posted is doctored.

And those times were off by the 12 minutes on those cameras. So the real times were 750 something and 820 something IIRC.

After reading Frank's latest article about Alessi's testimony, I can almost believe that RG was walking around there, waiting on his friend. But maybe his friend just chickened out. Or he ran off when MK got home, leaving RG to have to fight iwth her alone.

 

[otto]

You're just repeating the same thing you said before, so I don't think you realize why it doesn't add up. She didn't have to work until ten that night. If she had planned on eating before going in to work(which you have no way of knowing) she may have been planning on eating as late as 9:30, but Patrick told her at 8:18 not to come in, blowing any planned dinner time out of the water. Please read and understand what I'm saying as it doesn't seem like you paid attention the first time.

She ate dinner at about 8:20 or 8:30 (not sure), prior to Sollecito's phone call with his father. What am I not getting? They ate dinner per the phone call with Dr Sollecito.

Are you suggesting that Knox may not have eaten dinner that evening, or didn't plan to eat dinner but ate dinner anyway shortly before Dr Sollecito's call?

 

[wasnt_me]

Raf wrote in his diary on November 18th:



So the only time she may have gone out was "early evening", as in before the murder took place. And she was with him the rest of the night, and he is convinced she didn't kill Meredith.

I personally don't know how you can't remember if the person left the house or not while you were awake, but I can believe that the police can get you son confused at what you think, that you'll doubt what you know to be true. My ex does it to me ALL the time. He'll swear something happened totally different than i said and then have me doubting how it really happened.

Also, RS seems to be a "pleaser." whether right or wrong, he wanted to help the police and they were pressuring him, so he made up stuff. Like the knife poking thing. bad form, but not as bad as "I had consentual relations with the victim. but she got killed while I was crapping and jamming out on the toilet."

Who does that, let alone says it as if it's true? RG.

 

[Malkmus]

We know she planned to eat ... because she did have dinner at about 8:20 PM that night.

Sorry, just because you do something doesn't mean it was planned. And I have still have issues with the phone call from dad as it is not mentioned in the call that dinner had been eaten. That being said, I also don't see how lying about what time she ate dinner would help her case. The important thing is she claims she was at home. Whether she was eating or watching a movie or taking shower isn't important.

 

[Malkmus]

I personally don't know how you can't remember if the person left the house or not while you were awake, but I can believe that the police can get you son confused at what you think, that you'll doubt what you know to be true. My ex does it to me ALL the time. He'll swear something happened totally different than i said and then have me doubting how it really happened.

Also, RS seems to be a "pleaser." whether right or wrong, he wanted to help the police and they were pressuring him, so he made up stuff. Like the knife poking thing. bad form, but not as bad as "I had consentual relations with the victim. but she got killed while I was crapping and jamming out on the toilet."

Who does that, let alone says it as if it's true? RG.

Well, he says he doesn't know if she went out "for a few minutes". In the early evening we know she answered the door and talked to Jovana while Raf was in the bathroom. Seems like a moment where he may not have been sure exactly where she was or if she stepped outside for a few minutes.

 

[wasnt_me]

that's what I was thinking about after I got done posting that about not knowing if she went out or opened the door and talked to his friend outside, possibly due to the leak, or he just didn't see what was going on in terms of his door being answered.

 

[wasnt_me]

What time is court? I guess when I wake up, it'll all be over.

 

[otto]

Sorry, just because you do something doesn't mean it was planned. And I have still have issues with the phone call from dad as it is not mentioned in the call that dinner had been eaten. That being said, I also don't see how lying about what time she ate dinner would help her case. The important thing is she claims she was at home. Whether she was eating or watching a movie or taking shower isn't important.

Dinner included fish, with Sollecito chopping the head off the fish and it being bloody (think it was Knox that described the bloody fish preparation for the meal). I suspect that took a little preparation and preplanning - meaning that dinner was planned.

The water spill happened after dinner and before the call with Dr Sollecito. <modsnip>
Anything to distance themselves from the time of the murder ...

Providing an incorrect dinner time, specifically later in the evening, helps fill out the hours from 8:42 PM until 6ish AM. The earlier the murder, when Knox and Sollecito have an alibi, the better for them. The later they stayed at the apartment, the better for them.

She was finished dinner by about 8:30. The pipes leaked. There was a phone call with Dr Sollecito. The phones for Knox and Sollecito were turned off. The pair are unaccounted for until the following morning. Claims that the computer was accessed cannot be verified after 8:40, and it's possible that the movie simply played out ("no human interaction" per report) at 9:10. In order to argue that Knox and Sollecito are not guilty, it's desirable to have the murder occur at 8:50 and dinner at 9:30.

The pair also lied about when they got up. Their story is that they slept until about 10 AM, and we know that's not true. They haven't provided an explanation.

 

[Allusonz]

I've posted before that stomach contents are not a reliable source of information regarding time of death, but I supposed this needs a proper citation, so here it is:

"The inspection of the contents of the stomach must be part of every postmortem examination if possible because it may provide qualitative information concerning the nature of the last meal and the presence of abnormal constituents. Using it as a guide to the time of death, however, is theoretically unsound and presents many practical difficulties, although it may have limited applicability in some exceptional instances. Generally, using stomach contents as a guide to time of death involves an unacceptable degree of imprecision and is thus liable to mislead the investigator and the court. Characteristic cell types from food plants can be used to identify a victim's last meal; knowledge about which can be useful in determining the victim's whereabouts or actions prior to death "

Forensic toxicology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Original Paper:

Journal of Forensic Sciences (1997)
Volume: 42, Issue: 3, Publisher: ASTM AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR TESTING AND, Pages: 364-367
ISSN: 00221198

Abstract and Addition Info: http://www.mendeley.com/research/forensic-botany-an-underutilized-resource/


Therefore, we cannot conclude that the time of death was at 9:30.

Stomach contents are a viable way of determining TOD when ENOUGH VARIABLES are known which in this particular case there are sufficient variables known to provide an accurate TOD. Add to that a videotaped autopsy for all to see.

From the testimony

"[Amy Frost has a pretty specific recollection, 5:30-6:00, p. 37]:
"As far November 1 was concerned, she remembered that Meredith had arrived
about half past four and that they had started eating the pizza they had prepared at
around half past five or six."

[Robyn Butterworth's chronology supports earlier pizza consumption, later consumption of the apple crumble, p. 34]
"The last time she had seen Meredith had been November 1 at her house in Via
Bontempi, where there were also Amy Frost and Sophie Purton. Meredith had
arrived at about 4 pm; they had prepared a pizza and had eaten; then they had
looked at the Halloween photos on the computer before starting to watch a film;
around the middle of the film they had prepared an apple crumble, a sort of apple
cake, which they had eaten with ice cream. ..."

Amy Frost, Sophie Purton and Robyn Butterworth have testified that the start of the meal (pizza) started at 5:30 - 6:00, 6:00, 6:00 - 6:30. For the purposes of TOD using stomach contents it is calculated based when the meal starts not ends. The meal consisted of 2 separate courses one being the pizza the other being the apple crumble. It does not matter how many parts there are to a meal nor does it matter when the meal ended for the purposes of determining the TOD it is when the meal starts. Yes I have seen many try to stretch this based on when the meal ended. Thankfully science does not work that way.

There was no abnormal pathology and MK was healthy. This autopsy was videotaped and the duodenum was tied off properly to prevent slippage of the stomach contents into the duodenum. The duodenum was empty at the time of the autopsy.

For those of you that try to Google and it states that it can take between 2 - 7 hours or whatever time you happen to hit upon sorry does not work in this case for 2 reasons. There is no abnormal pathology and normally they are giving the time that it would take for the stomach contents to traverse the gastro system not just into the duodenum.

For those that want to bring up the possibility of the mushroom again it has no bearing on the TOD as it begins from the time the FIRST mouthful is eaten. It truly does not matter whether it was a piece of apple or a mushroom.

Also for those that want to state that there could of been food eaten at an earlier time the stomach contents are consistent with the pizza and apple crumble and measured 500ML.

All of the experts agreed with respect to the fact that stomach would of started emptying into the duodenum between 2 -4 hours. With 3 hours being the average time even by Dr. Lalli the prosecution expert. By 10:00 as stated by one the stomach contents would of started to pass into the duodenum thus the TOD would of had to of been, based on all the variables known, between 9:00 and 9:30