Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[SMK]

I'm so sorry about your husband, my friend.

:blowkiss::heartbeat:

 

[SMK]

An excerpt from a very lengthy post, which clarifies what I have long been wondering about the Lone Wolf scenario: Whether it might still be upheld, along the lines of Hendry's brilliant analysis:

At this point, it's time to state a critical truth: the Supreme Court did not find that Guede acted with accomplices in the murder of Meredith Kercher. Instead, it found that the lower courts were correct (legally and procedurally) to make this finding of fact in the light of the evidence placed before those courts. There's a very important difference.

And that leads on to the second of my initial points. The two lower courts in Guede's case made the ultimate finding of fact that Guede acted in concert with a larger group in the murder. It came to this finding based upon all the evidence and testimony placed before it, and having considered the arguments of the prosecution and defence (and the court's own reasoning, given that this is possible in Italian criminal courts). But here's the important part: this does not mean that other courts investigating the same crime need to agree on the same findings of fact. In reality, the courts in the Knox/Sollecito trials will come to findings of fact purely on the basis of the evidence/testimony/arguments presented in these courts.

So, in fact, Hellmann's court could perfectly legitimately come to a finding of fact that the murder was the work of a sole perpetrator - and it wouldn't necessarily even have to find that this sole perpetrator was Guede (although of course Hellmann's court would not ever explicitly or implicitly state that Guede was not involved, given the abundance of evidence against him*. This stuff about Hellmann's court now being somehow "bound" by the findings of fact in Guede's trials is misleading and ignorant nonsense. And, in any case, the only concern of Hellmann's court is to find whether Knox and/or Sollecito are guilty of participation in the murder, to the exclusion of any doubt based in reason. Technically, therefore, it's immaterial whether one or 100 people participated in the murder** - all that matters is whether it can be proven that Knox and/or Sollecito were participants. And the answer to that is almost certainly a resounding "no".

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=215085&page=12

 

[trillian]

Does anyone else think that if only Amanda had not send the "see you later" text, she and RS would not be in prison today?

I think that is what started the suspicions against her, but more so with Patrick since they suspected a black man and her text read different in Italian than what she meant.

Then the coerced statements from Amanda, all the media hysteria, the "we got 'em" press conferences before they had any evidence, the forensic lies, and this huge international case got too big to pull back. It really would have been so embarrasing for them. A screw up of epic proportions! Even when Guede turned up, they just replaced Lumumba with him and carried on with the same theory. And they couldnt just blame Guede. My god, they themselves had let that local knife-weilding rock-throwing criminal go free, more than once!

If only she had not sent that text she may not have been victim to such an inept process that buried her under a mountain of lies.

I'm sure she has tortured herself a ton with all the "what ifs" and "if only I had..". It won't be much longer now though I hope.

 

[wasnt_me]

Oh come on, they couldn't care less about Meredith. They went on with their daily business as nothing happened. Why you think they didn't toss the knife in the first place? Why didn't RS toss his knife? He cleaned it and put it back in his pocket. They did exactly that with the kitchen knife. And I am not claiming to know exactly what they ate after the murder. That was my whole point. Maybe this, maybe that. You simply can't say anything absolute about that starch. Nothing. IMO.

All of this is 100% fiction.

 

[Nova]

Does anyone else think that if only Amanda had not send the "see you later" text, she and RS would not be in prison today?

I think that is what started the suspicions against her, but more so with Patrick since they suspected a black man and her text read different in Italian than what she meant.

Then the coerced statements from Amanda, all the media hysteria, the "we got 'em" press conferences before they had any evidence, the forensic lies, and this huge international case got too big to pull back. It really would have been so embarrasing for them. A screw up of epic proportions! Even when Guede turned up, they just replaced Lumumba with him and carried on with the same theory. And they couldnt just blame Guede. My god, they themselves had let that local knife-weilding rock-throwing criminal go free, more than once!

If only she had not sent that text she may not have been victim to such an inept process that buried her under a mountain of lies.

I'm sure she has tortured herself a ton with all the "what ifs" and "if only I had..". It won't be much longer now though I hope.

Perhaps. But I'm not sure ILE hadn't already decided AK was to blame. We're now seeing statements about how "the American girl" "corrupted" RS, and I assume you know the lead investigator said he knew from AK's supposedly suspicious hip movements that she was guilty before the text message was even read.

Perugia LE has proven itself lazy and incompetent at every turn. I think they made the easy, snap decision that the break in was staged (no need to exert themselves finding a culprit) and then focussed on the girl from the U.S., the country where satanic and sexual crimes are common (at least in their minds).

What might have made a difference is if AK and RS had immediately lawyered up like her Italian roommates did, and if AK had fled the country like MK's friends did. These actions might have forced ILE to wait for forensic results before announcing the crime was "solved." (As you point out, once that announcement was made, ILE went into "saving face" mode.)

 

[Nova]

All of this is 100% fiction.

Thank you. I asked about the facts alleged at the time of the post and got no response.

It seems to me that the worse the evidence gets for the prosecution, the more pro-guilty posters retreat into tabloid mythology, if not outright invention.

 

[SMK]

Does anyone else think that if only Amanda had not send the "see you later" text, she and RS would not be in prison today?

I think that is what started the suspicions against her, but more so with Patrick since they suspected a black man and her text read different in Italian than what she meant.

Then the coerced statements from Amanda, all the media hysteria, the "we got 'em" press conferences before they had any evidence, the forensic lies, and this huge international case got too big to pull back. It really would have been so embarrasing for them. A screw up of epic proportions! Even when Guede turned up, they just replaced Lumumba with him and carried on with the same theory. And they couldnt just blame Guede. My god, they themselves had let that local knife-weilding rock-throwing criminal go free, more than once!

If only she had not sent that text she may not have been victim to such an inept process that buried her under a mountain of lies.

I'm sure she has tortured herself a ton with all the "what ifs" and "if only I had..". It won't be much longer now though I hope.

Yes, I think the Perugia polizia certainly jumped on the text. It was what "caught" her. And yet, I have this feeling that the fact that AK and RS were at the cottage when all was discovered, doomed them.....

 

[Allusonz]

Otto, you keep using Sollecito's private diary entry as if that is the explanation Sollecito has presented in court. He did not. Your version spins the facts and it undermines your point. Yes, the fact that he wrote that version at all is troublesome, but it should remain within its proper context.

As for Guede, the difference between Guede, Knox, Sollecito, and Lumamba is Guede was never a suspect until his DNA made a cold match from the murder room. The police spent two weeks trying to make Lumamba fit to the crime, threatening him and intimidating him in jail. Not so for Guede. Guede was convicted from evidence gathered in a non-suspect-centric way. That makes his conviction far stronger.

If we are being fair and objective, we would have to say that the evidence convicting Guede might be the result of contamination. Then we look at the rest of the evidence and see what it can factually tell us (beyond a reasonable doubt). And that is, that after witnessing a brutal murder committed by people he barely knew, Guede did not call the police, and in fact went dancing afterwards because he was afraid of getting in trouble for the crime. Believable? no.

Guede admits he was there, and he has never stated that he wasn't there that night. Amanda and raffaelle say they were not there. The weight of evidence between the two (excluding all DNA) is still very skewed.

Deserves more than my simple thank you

 

[emyr]

Where does the decision of the jury factor into this? The jury heard all the evidence and had no problem arriving at the unanimous verdict of guilt. I hope that "reasonable doubt" doesn't mean the same thing it meant to the Anthony jury.

The old jury did hear that Curatalo's (the homeless guy? I have trouble remembering his name) testimony was true, which was really the primary piece of evidence that "caught" them in the lie that they were home together all night. And they also heard that Sollecito told people he called the police which he didn't until after the police showed up.

Both of those pieces of evidence have been proven factually incorrect. If you also throw out the knife and the bra clasp, introduce a clear narrative of prosecutorial and forensic misconduct, then you have an entirely different set of circumstances presented to the jury.

 

[Allusonz]

Sorry, SMK. I hadn't read your post when I posted the same thing this afternoon.

I believe you say it better, so I'm quoting you here.

You both stated it very well!!! as well I am so sorry about your brother!!!

 

[otto]

I was going to say something similar. I was going to say that if Amanda's own mother or sister had been murdered while visiting her in Perugia, it would have been very strange to see her planning a romantic evening with Sollecito. As it was, it was a roommate who had distanced herself from Knox. She likely wanted to put it all behind her.

Isn't that the point of this particular circumstantial evidence ... that the murder had absolutely no impact on Knox? That she did not appear sad or in mourning like the other friends that Meredith had made in the time she lived in Perugia?

 

[Allusonz]

@ SMK as well my thoughts to you on your husband

 

[wasnt_me]

I have read the court documents both English and Italian. I believe you may be misinformed as to some of the blood evidence

ETA Although I am still not fluent in Italian yet it is getting better

You go, girl. You never should have told us you can read Italian! I'm about to be after you for some translations. That Google and Bing just don't do it for me!

 

[emyr]

Regarding the forensics (where the conversation was before we all got distracted by pretty boys and sexy undies):

Forensics is the use of science to find the truth in criminal matters. I can't stress that enough. Science. Not magic. Science. If it were magic, we'd only care if the results were convincing. The methods used to get to those results wouldn't matter. In science, however, the first thing you look at in an experiment/test is the methods used. If the methods are flawed, the results are invalid. Period. Doesn't matter how attractive those results may be. (See the various discredited 'Cold Fusion' experiments for a good reference)

In this case, the methodology of PLE and its lab people is hopelessly flawed, as proven by their own videos, still images and lab reports. Sorry, there's no getting around it, they are hoist by their own petard.

Pure and simple, if you are going to use science to take away someone's freedom, you'd better treat it like science, not like some magic show, and most certainly not like some legal argument, where eloquence and 'gotcha' moments dominate. If the courts and the public can't respect scientific method and the ethics that go with it, then we shouldn't use science in the courts at all. The independent experts showed how much respect Stephanoni and her cohorts have for those ethics - in their own words and pictures.

But here we get back to Otto's argument. Is Stephanoni's misconduct so gross that all of Guede's DNA evidence must also be thrown out?

I actually have to say that I find the evidence handling both lazy and sub-par. That being said, any DNA that left a clear and strong signal (Definitely anything above 400 RFUs, perhaps anything above 100 RFUs) I would likely accept. So anything that convicted Guede that was a strong signal I would accept. I think the vaginal swab might have been borderline, but I think there was plenty of strong DNA to convict him.

Also the fact that he said he had never been to their apartment before means any DNA found in there is unlikely to have arrived there from contamination.

 

[Allusonz]

Has anyone else read anything that Staphanoni will not take the stand on Saturday and that the August 1st date has been cancelled?

 

[wasnt_me]

Exactly. Just imagine, if you were the victim of such a horrific crime and were somehow aware of the aftermath (not that I believe in an afterlife personally, but for the sake of this...) I feel like I'd almost rather have the killer walk free than have 2 innocent people locked up and defamed. It's a tough call.

Such a horrible concept.

It's not really a choice, though sonata, because if two innocent people are locked up, then the killer IS most likely running free anyways--unless he happened to be the third wheel suspect in the murder.

 

[sherlockh]

The old jury did hear that Curatalo's (the homeless guy? I have trouble remembering his name) testimony was true, which was really the primary piece of evidence that "caught" them in the lie that they were home together all night. And they also heard that Sollecito told people he called the police which he didn't until after the police showed up.

Both of those pieces of evidence have been proven factually incorrect. If you also throw out the knife and the bra clasp, introduce a clear narrative of prosecutorial and forensic misconduct, then you have an entirely different set of circumstances presented to the jury.

Really? The primary piece of evidence? Again presented as fact but it isn't. There are phone records, computer records, witness statements, their own statements, and a whole set of evidence in the cottage (much more than just knife and bra clasp) that proves they were in the cottage and not RS's apartment. I have no problem with other opinions but the way the 'innocence' of princess AK must be defended by all these far fetched theories and claimed facts that are no facts at all just leaves me wondering....why? JMO.

 

[Malkmus]

But here we get back to Otto's argument. Is Stephanoni's misconduct so gross that all of Guede's DNA evidence must also be thrown out?

I actually have to say that I find the evidence handling both lazy and sub-par. That being said, any DNA that left a clear and strong signal (Definitely anything above 400 RFUs, perhaps anything above 100 RFUs) I would likely accept. So anything that convicted Guede that was a strong signal I would accept. I think the vaginal swab might have been borderline, but I think there were lots of strong evidence that proved he murdered her and tore off her clothes.

I don't see what it matters if Rudy's DNA came from contamination as well. DNA is useful for placing people where they shouldn't be. Rudy has already admitted to being at the scene of the crime so it doesn't matter if it were thrown out, we have his uncontested confession of being there with her as she died. It would be pointless to contest it.

 

[wasnt_me]

I have never seen reference to that amount of money or an itemised receipt for lingerie. Please can you link me to your source.

I am not new to the case. I have never seen this specific information. And I am concerned that your source might be from a tabloid such as the Sun which as a Brit I know is utterly, utterly unreliable and though popular is not taken seriously by any educated british citizen.

So if you don't mind I would like to check those facts.

Just fyi, there have been plenty of times when a "fact" by a seasoned poster has been asserted as true without them wanting to cite it, and later, it was determined that the "fact" was wrong or had been miscontrued. A few times, some have taken for granted that the "fact" is correct and debated it and debated it, only to find out that the fact was wrong in the first place. So you are right to question, if you have doubt. A polite and confident poster will find you the cite.

Like once, I had emyr asking me where I got the flipflop info from. I tracked it down only to realize I'd read it on a forum, which never cited where they got it from, so I told emyr not to trust it as fact. Before then, I was trusting it as fact, so we ALL can learn something from citations, even at this point in the game.

 

[wasnt_me]

OK, let us suppose this is true. Worst case scenario: MK has been brutally murdered, and what Amanda is interested in is buying sexy lingerie, and telling Raffaele about the great sex they will have that night. Maybe she wanted to distance herself from trauma. Maybe as she was not really close to MK, she simply did not care all that much and was moving on. Callous maybe. Against the law, no. If the 2 knew they were involved, they would likely have agreed to be seen about town, weeping over MK, putting on a show. As they knew they were not involved, they threw caution to the winds and let it be known that they were thinking of their joy, and not her tragedy. How does this connect them to a murder?

I agree with this, except RS said in his diary that it was a sarcastic statement because he knew there would be no hankypanky going on considering what had happened to MK and them in questioning.