Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[OldSteve]

How many hours did other suspects spend at the police station? All of Meredith's close friends were there as long as Knox on the first day ... was that 12-15 hours? I think we need to keep things in perspective, so mentioning that Knox was questioned for x number of hours means little on its own. What about Sofie? How many hours was she at the police station, waiting to be questioned ... sitting next to Knox? How many times was she asked to come in to clarify her answers? What about the guys in the downstairs cottage that were out of town at the time of the murder ... how many hours were they at the police station?

When did the pair have time to smooch in the lingerie department at the fashion shop?

To answer your question I do not know, but I do know the others were not there till the wee hours of the morning, without food/drink and grilled by a tag-team of investigators speaking Italian which AK did not understand, while she is trying to listen and make sense out of what the interpreter is telling her.

The others were not caught in the tunnel-vision of "prove them guilty" IMO.

 

[OldSteve]

Are you suggesting that someone innocent and jailed for 4 years would not wear a weathered or tense expression or show signs of ageing/maturing? Seems a bit far-fetched to me...

Also, whilst some heterosexual men might object, there are many, many educated heterosexual men who would be absolutely fine with that term. Being feminine should not be treated as a bad thing. These days I would hope that both men and women are more open to such things and that they wouldn't consider anything feminine as being insulting. As a woman, and a feminist, I find that notion insulting.

It should be noted that RS was kept in the section of prison for sex offenders... I think that would make anyone become weathered and tense!

 

[otto]

To answer your question I do not know, but I do know the others were not there till the wee hours of the morning, without food/drink and grilled by a tag-team of investigators speaking Italian which AK did not understand, while she is trying to listen and make sense out of what the interpreter is telling her.

The others were not caught in the tunnel-vision of "prove them guilty" IMO.

Acutally, on the first night after the murder, everyone was detained without breaks ... but Knox had her legs straddled over Sollecito and proclaimed that the victim "fukcing bled to death" even though the coroner had not yet determined cause of death.

Not the interpreter story again ... I guess we only need look as far as the Knox testimony to see that she stated that she had an interpreter.

Not seeing any tunnel vision in the evidence that excludes everyone but Guede, Sollecito and Knox ... if only they hadn't been stoned out of their heads the night that Meredith was murdered ... maybe they'd remember what they did ... none of those "imaginery" memories.

 

[SMK]

So should we discredit eye witness testimony because the receipt was not found on the floor of the car? Facts are that she was not replacing the confiscated underwear the day after she was released from questioning ... instead she was playining in the shops with Sollecito. So Sollecito and Knox were out of words when asked what they did after Meredith's murder ... other than buy sexy lingerie and flirt in the shop.

OK, let us suppose this is true. Worst case scenario: MK has been brutally murdered, and what Amanda is interested in is buying sexy lingerie, and telling Raffaele about the great sex they will have that night. Maybe she wanted to distance herself from trauma. Maybe as she was not really close to MK, she simply did not care all that much and was moving on. Callous maybe. Against the law, no. If the 2 knew they were involved, they would likely have agreed to be seen about town, weeping over MK, putting on a show. As they knew they were not involved, they threw caution to the winds and let it be known that they were thinking of their joy, and not her tragedy. How does this connect them to a murder?

 

[SMK]

Acutally, on the first night after the murder, everyone was detained without breaks ... but Knox had her legs straddled over Sollecito and proclaimed that the victim "fukcing bled to death" even though the coroner had not yet determined cause of death.

Not the interpreter story again ... I guess we only need look as far as the Knox testimony to see that she stated that she had an interpreter.

Not seeing any tunnel vision in the evidence that excludes everyone but Guede, Sollecito and Knox ... if only they hadn't been stoned out of their heads the night that Meredith was murdered ... maybe they'd remember what they did ... none of those "imaginery" memories.

Right, Knox felt it was absurd to be Pollyanna-ish and say Kercher had not suffered. "She ****ing bled to death." Stop the white washing. I would have said similar, as I hate whitewashing. She knew it was no crime to say this, and as she knew she was not involved, she did not believe she needed to put on an act. Girls straddle boys when they sit on their laps all the time. If the murder left her unmoved, then one must accept it. How does that reveal her as the killer? Killers put on acts to deflect suspicion.

 

[otto]

It should be noted that RS was kept in the section of prison for sex offenders... I think that would make anyone become weathered and tense!

The attack on the victim was sexually staged ... of course the culprit was housed with the other sexual offenders. Knox too. Wouldn't you expect that they were in good company?

 

[SMK]

The attack on the victim was sexually staged ... of course the culprit was housed with the other sexual offenders. Knox too. Wouldn't you expect that they were in good company?

NOT if they were not involved, NO, absolutely not.

 

[OldSteve]

OK, let us suppose this is true. Worst case scenario: MK has been brutally murdered, and what Amanda is interested in is buying sexy lingerie, and telling Raffaele about the great sex they will have that night. Maybe she wanted to distance herself from trauma. Maybe as she was not really close to MK, she simply did not care all that much and was moving on. Callous maybe. Against the law, no. If the 2 knew they were involved, they would likely have agreed to be seen about town, weeping over MK, putting on a show. As they knew they were not involved, they threw caution to the winds and let it be known that they were thinking of their joy, and not her tragedy. How does this connect them to a murder?

Well stated! She had to buy new underwear because all her's was taken during the investigation.

What she chose to buy - I cannot fault her. I can actually see a tragedy bringing people in love closer together, increasing the need for affection and intimacy.

Otto - would you have her buying large, industrial-strength, unfeminine underwear so as to diminish any interest in intimacy?

OT - I'm thinking of my aunts back in Italy - seems they wore black all their lives in constant morning - no sooner were they over one thing, when there was something else to morn about... Not the way to go through life.

 

[SMK]

@ OTTO:No matter how I seach pics of Sollecito, I see nothing in his face post-conviction, which gives away that he was rightfully convicted. Nor Amanda's.

The fact of the matter with Knox and Sollecito: They may not be your type, your cup of tea, and you may find them selfish or callous or lacking in some way - but legally, jurisprudence-wise, we need to make sure the evidence proves beyond reasonable doubt that they were involved in Kercher's murder. All else must be outside the vision of Justice.

 

[emyr]

Isn't that a great headline: Aviello: "I lied because I love Raffaele Sollecito." Also in the article: According to Aviello, his version of events was not only false, but the false testimony was agreed upon with Sollecito and Knox lawyers. He was to be paid 30 000 euros for a sex change operation by Sollecito's sister. Per the lying prisoner, the false testimony was intended "to create confusion in the process." Not too long ago, posts on this forum defended these liars as being good people, even if they were mafia and child murderers, but the fact that Aviello has been convicted for libel eight times may be the more appealing perspective to take today.

http://www.nuovasocieta.it/cronaca/...ho-mentito-perche-amo-raffaele-sollecito.html

I, for one, never said that. I said it was a mistake from the start. And I still think so. And I also think the defense counsel is not that great, and doesn't have enough experience in criminal court. Both families should have hired someone else.

 

[emyr]

Raff is a late Generation X edgey type, not some stuffy old army footballer. And yes, he is very , very pretty!:razz:

Sorry to disagree with everyone, but I think he looks like a D&D nerd. As for does he "look" innocent or guilty, I think that's a rabbit hole that leads nowhere.

 

[SMK]

Sorry to disagree with everyone, but I think he looks like a D&D nerd. As for does he "look" innocent or guilty, I think that's a rabbit hole that leads nowhere.

Right---this is what I want Otto to see: Sollecito's face reveals nothing of guilt or innocence.

 

[emyr]

My understanding is that Guede's case is closed, so it's not possible to introduce new evidence. It's worth noting that collection of evidence was closed at a certain time prior to trial. This part of the process is done to ensure that the prosecution can't spring new evidence on the accused at the last minute.

It was deterimined during Guede's trial that although he only admitted to being at the scene, there was evidence that he was involved in the assault. Similar evidence led to the conviction of Sollecito and Knox. DNA evidence was matched to all three suspects. If DNA evidence is in question, then it would also be in question with the case against Guede. It's not really possible to argue the lonewolf theory when there is nothing to prove that he was doing anything other than being in the bathroom during the attack and then going to Meredith's aid. His footprints and fingerprints are consistent with his story. If the DNA is to be tossed, then I think the lonewolf theory has to go with it.

The DNA on the knife handle has been a confirmed match with Knox. This evidence is neither here nor there except that the DNA on the blade could hypothetically be contaminated, and Sollecito said it got there during a dinner party that Meredith attended at his apt. In fact, there had never been there. Same story with the clasp. Hypothetically it may have been contaminated. If it wasn't flying DNA in the cottage, it was faulty lab work. Seems to me that if there was something wrong with the collection and processing of the evidence, then both the blade and the handle should be contaminated.

Otto, you keep using Sollecito's private diary entry as if that is the explanation Sollecito has presented in court. He did not. Your version spins the facts and it undermines your point. Yes, the fact that he wrote that version at all is troublesome, but it should remain within its proper context.

As for Guede, the difference between Guede, Knox, Sollecito, and Lumamba is Guede was never a suspect until his DNA made a cold match from the murder room. The police spent two weeks trying to make Lumamba fit to the crime, threatening him and intimidating him in jail. Not so for Guede. Guede was convicted from evidence gathered in a non-suspect-centric way. That makes his conviction far stronger.

If we are being fair and objective, we would have to say that the evidence convicting Guede might be the result of contamination. Then we look at the rest of the evidence and see what it can factually tell us (beyond a reasonable doubt). And that is, that after witnessing a brutal murder committed by people he barely knew, Guede did not call the police, and in fact went dancing afterwards because he was afraid of getting in trouble for the crime. Believable? no.

Guede admits he was there, and he has never stated that he wasn't there that night. Amanda and raffaelle say they were not there. The weight of evidence between the two (excluding all DNA) is still very skewed.

 

[SMK]

As for Guede, the difference between Guede, Knox, Sollecito, and Lumamba is Guede was never a suspect until his DNA made a cold match from the murder room. The police spent two weeks trying to make Lumamba fit to the crime, threatening him and intimidating him in jail. Not so for Guede. Guede was convicted from evidence gathered in a non-suspect-centric way. That makes his conviction far stronger.
[. . . ]
Guede admits he was there, and he has never stated that he wasn't there that night. Amanda and raffaelle say they were not there. The weight of evidence between the two (excluding all DNA) is still very skewed.

Well said.

 

[trillian]

I dont care if Amanda bought racy S&M gear and wore it to have liasons with multiple partners on the police station roof and then did a cheer routine.
She wasn't involved - and there isn't any evidence otherwise except by fantasy.

A few weeks of knowing someone really isnt all that long to make some huge emotional investment. I wouldn't really be all that affected frankly. I mean, I would think it was a horrible tragedy and I would thank the stars I had not been home...but I wouldnt be in complete anguish and probably would not even cry. Stunned and a bit sad, yes. Heartbroken, no. Life goes on. I completely understand why Amanda wasn't consumed with grief and I dont get why people think she should have been.

 

[SMK]

I dont care if Amanda bought racy S&M gear and wore it to have liasons with multiple partners on the police station roof and then did a cheer routine.
She wasn't involved - and there isn't any evidence otherwise except by fantasy.

A few weeks of knowing someone really isnt all that long to make some huge emotional investment. I wouldn't really be all that affected frankly. I mean, I would think it was a horrible tragedy and I would thank the stars I had not been home...but I wouldnt be in complete anguish and probably would not even cry. Stunned and a bit sad, yes. Heartbroken, no. Life goes on. I completely understand why Amanda wasn't consumed with grief and I dont get why people think she should have been.

I kind of thought this all along, but was often afraid to say it. Knox maybe was indifferent to a roommate whom she had known for only a short period of time, and who had chosen to distance herself from Knox. But that does not prove murder in any way, shape or form, and should never have been given the importance it was in her email home in November 2007.

 

[Nova]

So now the 8 libel charges should be taken into consideration and the prisoner's testimony should not be taken seriously? Dr Sollecito was willing pay to make water run uphill. What wouldn't he have approved and done to have his son released from jail? We don't know about the 30 000 Euros yet, but Aviello wants his money for the sex change.

I could probably find some posts about the baby killer having killed the child shortly after taking him, implying that at least he didn't torture the child ... even though the child was was yanked from his high chair, dragged through the streets and murdered because he was crying. I think it was suggested that just because he's a baby killer it doesn't mean he isn't telling the truth this time.

What are you talking about?

Yes, a baby killer can tell the truth and may have done so in AK's and RS' appeal.

Nobody has said that the charge against the Sollecitos shouldn't be investigated. What I said is that IMHO it is patently untrue on its face: the family would never pay for testimony that could be so easily disproven. (Though, to my knowledge, ILE still hasn't bothered.) For 30,000 euros they would have made sure Aviello told a better story.

 

[Nova]

How many 25 year old heterosexual professional males would like to be described as pretty; a feminine term ... not even in Italy.

I agree that Sollecito has a very odd expression in many of his photos. He seems to have his lips thinly pursed and twist to the right. It gives the impression of a mental disturbance. The strange appearance of Sollecito has nothing to do with his hair. Knox has her own quirks, as does Guede. It's not surprising that the culprits are unable to hide their mental disturbances - and who can blame them after four years in prison ... their lives are harshly written on their faces. People say that Knox has aged and matured in jail, that Sollecito looks like a hardened criminal ... two ways of saying the same thing.

So my describing him as "good looking" would upset him, but your insistence that he is mentally ill would suit him fine. Unbelievable!

There is no evidence that either Sollecito or Knox is mentally ill. But then there's no evidence they killed Meredith Kercher either, so I don't suppose it should surprise me that the flights of fancy continue.

 

[Nova]

What are you suggesting is a repeat from a tabloid?

Knox bought one pair of panties and claimed that she did it right after the murder because she couldn't access her things and needed underwear ... knowing that it would be some time before she had access to her things. She spent $82 on this one piece of underwear. Are you suggesting that this was all she needed for the next few days? Surely she knew that since her rental was a crime scene she wouldn't be going home for a while ... one $82 pair of underwear from the second hand shop to replace the underwear that she couldn't access in the next few days, weeks or months? That's a nice story, but not believable.

Since it has nothing to do with the crime, this entire discussion of Knox's underwear is tabloid trash. I don't care where it originated.

How about the other two roommates? Did they buy underwear that week or just keep wearing the pairs they had on when the murder was discovered?

For the record, the focus on tales such as the Great Underwear Caper go along way toward convincing thoughtful people that Knox and Sollecito are victims of a witch hunt.

 

[SMK]

Since it has nothing to do with the crime, this entire discussion of Knox's underwear is tabloid trash. I don't care where it originated.

How about the other two roommates? Did they buy underwear that week or just keep wearing the pairs they had on when the murder was discovered?

For the record, the focus on tales such as the Great Underwear Caper go along way toward convincing thoughtful people that Knox and Sollecito are victims of a witch hunt.

Exactly. And it takes other forms as well. I was just reading an article on TJMK about the excellent classical education Meredith was given as a child. That is lovely, and I wish to hell my parents had been as responsible as hers were. But to use this as a juxtaposition, showing Knox and Sollecito as creepy opposites, modern idiots , only smacks of witch hunt to me.