Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #17

[Nova]

*Snipped*. <modsnip>. Pointing out to what the facts are and what the rumors are has nothing to do with any downplaying. The attempts to make RG look like a serial killer go all the way back to when the defense still was trying their lone wolf scenario. That is the only reason why all these rumors have popped up. Most of them originate from the defense themselves.

The truth is that if you look at the facts then you see nothing where you could foresee that any of these 3 would become murders. I don't read much into the rock throwing party of AK, or manga collection of RS either. And indeed I don't see any aggressive rapist murder in RG just because he stole some stuff. He even returned some of the stolen stuff. Where is the aggression?

IMO none of these 3 would ever by themselves murderer anyone. This is where the group dynamic comes into play which is a very interesting discussion <modsnip>.

I appreciate your fairness in discounting the histories of the defendants. I think RG's background is far more serious than AK's or RS', but you are certainly right there's nothing in his known history that screams rapist or murderer.

But in leaping to the "group dynamic" as an alternative explanation, you point out the problem with the pro-guilty stance. There is more evidence of RG's criminal background than there is of a criminal "group dynamic" between AK, RS and RG. There is simply no evidence the three ever met as a group, much less formed a psychological bond so dysfunctional it ended in murder. And there isn't enough time for them to have done so on the night of the murder.

You might as well blame satanism, as Mignini has already tried.

 

[sherlockh]

I appreciate your fairness in discounting the histories of the defendants. I think RG's background is far more serious than AK's or RS', but you are certainly right there's nothing in his known history that screams rapist or murderer.

But in leaping to the "group dynamic" as an alternative explanation, you point out the problem with the pro-guilty stance. There is more evidence of RG's criminal background than there is of a criminal "group dynamic" between AK, RS and RG. There is simply no evidence the three ever met as a group, much less formed a psychological bond so dysfunctional it ended in murder. And there isn't enough time for them to have done so on the night of the murder.

You might as well blame satanism, as Mignini has already tried.

Lol..the satanism thing came from the defense lawyers as you well know. There is evidence of all 3 of them at the crime scene during the murder which you already know as well.

I never thought that murder was their intention. You don't need to be best friends to turn against another. There is no time limit set on such a thing. I have seen fights in bars within an hour where people who just met join against another. It happens. All you need is something in common (like drinking or drugs), and another one who is not willing to join your 'fun'. AK explained most of the dynamics already in her confession. We were drunk, we just wanted some fun, she didn't want to join us, and he (RG) went after her. And so it all started.

 

[Sonata]

I returned because I just read in the book, where Nina is describing the cottage and moving in etc, in the "roommates" chapter. She says that RF did NOT feel safe with her window like it was. RF even worried that the wind could blow it open. She says that RF said in court that she didn't feel safe about that window and wanted Bars and new shutters.

This together with the fact that in Rudy's skype call he said the window was not smashed when he was at the house makes me wonder whether RG didn't use the front door and something happened afterwards. I was thinking the wind smashed the windows but then there is the infamous rock...

But I can't help but think that when Rudy gives a little detail like that (and like the toilet detail) that it may well stem from the truth. I am NOT saying I trust RG by any means. Just noticing his pattern of storytelling.

 

[SkewedView]

What was the name of that Manga that had the Italians so worked up? For some reason I can't remember right now...

 

[SMK]

Lol..the satanism thing came from the defense lawyers as you well know. There is evidence of all 3 of them at the crime scene during the murder which you already know as well.

I never thought that murder was their intention. You don't need to be best friends to turn against another. There is no time limit set on such a thing. I have seen fights in bars within an hour where people who just met join against another. It happens. All you need is something in common (like drinking or drugs), and another one who is not willing to join your 'fun'. AK explained most of the dynamics already in her confession. We were drunk, we just wanted some fun, she didn't want to join us, and he (RG) went after her. And so it all started.

How is that actually stated in the confession?

 

[SMK]

BTW, I watched a Dateline last night about Ryan Ferguson, an all-American boy who was falsely accused of murdering a newspaper editor in Columbia, MO, in 2001.

The friend who accused him has recanted; the eyewitness who identified Ryan has recanted. Both claim their testimonies were coerced by LE. The account of attempted coercion is backed up by other witnesses who refused to cooperate and say what LE wanted them to say.

There is no forensic evidence implicating Ryan and all the forensic evidence at the scene (fingerprints, bloody footprints, etc.) points to others.

The only evidence against Ryan is a dream his friend had two years after the murder; in the dream, the friend said he saw himself and Ryan robbing and killing the editor to get drink money and then returning to the club where they were partying. The problem with that story is that the club closed at 1:30 a.m. and it is known for certain that the victim wasn't killed until after 2.

Nonetheless, after 8 years of appeals and recantations, Ryan Ferguson remains in a Missouri prison.

I don't think we should get our hopes up for Knox or Sollecito. No matter how nonsensical the prosecution's story, once a conviction is obtained, reversing the verdict tends to call the entire system into question. And bureaucratic systems are like human bodies, they are ruthlessly efficient in fighting off invaders who threaten the health of the organism.

I know. This is what has bothered me regarding very well-meaning people from IIP, authors and the like, declaring "case closed" and "game over" RE the DNA findings by the independent experts. I hope they are correct, but I really do not trust if , for the reasons you state.

 

[SMK]

This together with the fact that in Rudy's skype call he said the window was not smashed when he was at the house makes me wonder whether RG didn't use the front door and something happened afterwards. I was thinking the wind smashed the windows but then there is the infamous rock...

But I can't help but think that when Rudy gives a little detail like that (and like the toilet detail) that it may well stem from the truth. I am NOT saying I trust RG by any means. Just noticing his pattern of storytelling.

The pattern notwithstanding, I always felt Rudy said that the window was not smashed to keep with his idea of going over for a consensual time with MK, and to make it look like he was not involved with anything untoward. I see what you mean about his pattern which contains truth, so he may have come in the front door, but he is also a self-serving liar, so hard to tell...:waitasec:

 

[Nova]

Lol..the satanism thing came from the defense lawyers as you well know. There is evidence of all 3 of them at the crime scene during the murder which you already know as well.

I never thought that murder was their intention. You don't need to be best friends to turn against another. There is no time limit set on such a thing. I have seen fights in bars within an hour where people who just met join against another. It happens. All you need is something in common (like drinking or drugs), and another one who is not willing to join your 'fun'. AK explained most of the dynamics already in her confession. We were drunk, we just wanted some fun, she didn't want to join us, and he (RG) went after her. And so it all started.

There is evidence that all three were in the cottage. But very little evidence of RS (even if one counts the bra clasp, which I do not), no evidence that AK was in the room where MK was murdered and no evidence that the three of them were ever at the cottage at the same time.

Sorry, but I've been a college undergrad and grad student and I've certainly spent my time in bars (gay and straight) and, no, I have never once seen a situation where three relative strangers suddenly pulled a knife and killed a co-ed. Nor have I witnesses anything remotely similar.

I've occasionally known of chest-thumping by straight men (or gay women) to erupt into a fistfight, but that isn't remotely similar to what is claimed in this case. And in my experience the people who end up in bar fights have usually been in bar fights before. No evidence of that for the Perugia defendants.

Whether it's satanism, witchcraft, "evil group dynamic" or, now, your "typical" bar fight, all of these explanations require great leaps of faith for which there is, in fact, no evidence.

 

[Nova]

Lol..the satanism thing came from the defense lawyers as you well know....

Actually, I did not know that. I was confusing Mignini's "sex game gone wrong" with Satanism because Mignini's actual claim has always reminded me of the Satanism claimed in the West Memphis 3 case. My bad.

 

[SMK]

There is evidence that all three were in the cottage. But very little evidence of RS (even if one counts the bra clasp, which I do not), no evidence that AK was in the room where MK was murdered and no evidence that the three of them were ever at the cottage at the same time.

Sorry, but I've been a college undergrad and grad student and I've certainly spent my time in bars (gay and straight) and, no, I have never once seen a situation where three relative strangers suddenly pulled a knife and killed a co-ed. Nor have I witnesses anything remotely similar.

I've occasionally known of chest-thumping by straight men (or gay women) to erupt into a fistfight, but that isn't remotely similar to what is claimed in this case. And in my experience the people who end up in bar fights have usually been in bar fights before. No evidence of that for the Perugia defendants.

Whether it's satanism, witchcraft, "evil group dynamic" or, now, your "typical" bar fight, all of these explanations require great leaps of faith for which there is, in fact, no evidence.

Yes, I recall reading of the "group dynamic" in regard to Perry Smith and Dick Hickcock, who killed the whole Clutter family in Holcomb, Kansas, in 1957.

It was said that "neither would have killed alone, but together, the 2 men created a third man, and he did it." However, both Smith and Hickcock had serious criminal pasts, and they had spent weeks planning and talking about how they would kill the Clutters.

Very different from AK and RS, suddenly deciding to kill MK with RG. It COULD happen, yet the evidence raises huge, huge doubts that this unlikely scenario ever unfolded. Even in another case I read where 3 teen girls killed a fourth girl, there had been months and months of build up before the event took place.

 

[sherlockh]

How is that actually stated in the confession?

"We were drunk and we wanted to have some fun, we invited Meredith to join us," Knox said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1568773/Students-sex-party-that-ended-in-murder.html

That Meredith refused I think is obvious. That that is how it started is my own deduction. The point was that the group is easily formed in such a situation, and you don't need to be best friends. I can play b-ball with total strangers on a recreational field and then when someone comes along who wants us all off then it can happen that me and the strangers turn against that someone. Not in such an extreme way as what happened with Meredith of course, but the 3 against 1 situation doesn't need any special bonding IMO.

 

[SMK]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1568773/Students-sex-party-that-ended-in-murder.html

That Meredith refused I think is obvious. That that is how it started is my own deduction. The point was that the group is easily formed in such a situation, and you don't need to be best friends. I can play b-ball with total strangers on a recreational field and then when someone comes along who wants us all off then it can happen that me and the strangers turn against that someone. Not in such an extreme way as what happened with Meredith of course, but the 3 against 1 situation doesn't need any special bonding IMO.

The American girl accused of murdering the British student Meredith Kercher, who allegedly died in a violent orgy, made a tearful confession saying they just wanted to "have some fun," it has emerged.

How odd that I had never read any of this before. Is this when police were still using Patrick as the third?

 

[SMK]

Actually, I did not know that. I was confusing Mignini's "sex game gone wrong" with Satanism because Mignini's actual claim has always reminded me of the Satanism claimed in the West Memphis 3 case. My bad.

NO, not your bad. :razz:

The Satanism came from Mignini, as I was reading last night in Burleigh's book, and yes, I trust a professor from Columbia University School of Journalism and published under Random House, New York, to check her facts, and check them meticulously.

Mignini did indeed hold to the Satanism, witch-craft, Masonic initiation obsessively, and was forced to relinquish it only by Comodi. It went far, far deeper than anyone knows. You were absolutely correct, Nova. And Sherlock wrong. :razz:

 

[sherlockh]

There is evidence that all three were in the cottage. But very little evidence of RS (even if one counts the bra clasp, which I do not), no evidence that AK was in the room where MK was murdered and no evidence that the three of them were ever at the cottage at the same time.

Sorry, but I've been a college undergrad and grad student and I've certainly spent my time in bars (gay and straight) and, no, I have never once seen a situation where three relative strangers suddenly pulled a knife and killed a co-ed. Nor have I witnesses anything remotely similar.

I've occasionally known of chest-thumping by straight men (or gay women) to erupt into a fistfight, but that isn't remotely similar to what is claimed in this case. And in my experience the people who end up in bar fights have usually been in bar fights before. No evidence of that for the Perugia defendants.

Whether it's satanism, witchcraft, "evil group dynamic" or, now, your "typical" bar fight, all of these explanations require great leaps of faith for which there is, in fact, no evidence.

I am not sure what you are looking for. A 'normal' murder? Had there not been any knives we would never even heard of this. There might have been a small article in the local newspaper how a foreign college girl was assaulted by 3 drunk kids but that is it. The 3 against 1 situation is not so absurd. It is the knife thing that turned this assault into an absurd murder. JMO.

 

[sherlockh]

NO, not your bad. :razz:

The Satanism came from Mignini, as I was reading last night in Burleigh's book, and yes, I trust a professor from Columbia University School of Journalism and published under Random House, New York, to check her facts, and check them meticulously.

Mignini did indeed hold to the Satanism, witch-craft, Masonic initiation obsessively, and was forced to relinquish it only by Comodi. It went far, far deeper than anyone knows. You were absolutely correct, Nova. And Sherlock wrong. :razz:

It was Luca Maori saying stuff about the prosecutors. He made that up. 'Some kind of satanic rite'. Those are his words. Not Mignini's. There is no quote from Mignini. He denied ever saying that. Burleigh has no idea what she is talking about and just copied some stuff from the tabloids.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4968044.ece

The prosecutors &#8220;laid out a scenario like from some crime novel&#8221;, Sollecito&#8217;s lawyer Luca Maori said. He added that they &#8220;alleged it was some kind of satanic rite, with Amanda allegedly first touching Meredith with the point of a knife, then slitting her throat, while Sollecito held her by the shoulders, from behind, Guede held her by an arm&#8221; and tried to sexually assault her.

 

[SMK]

It was Luca Maori saying stuff about the prosecutors. He made that up. 'Some kind of satanic rite'. Those are his words. Not Mignini's. There is no quote from Mignini. He denied ever saying that. Burleigh has no idea what she is talking about and just copied some stuff from the tabloids.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4968044.ece

Well, I hate to keep quoting Burleigh's text, but in the Chapter entitled, "Mignini", (Chapter 11) it delves into his insistence that some kind of Masonic initiation had taken place, with the one shoe off, and Amanda touching her forehead.

He is quoted as saying he believes they meant for it to occur in Halloween, but were forced to wait a night as MK was out. The Satanism and witchcraft theory is attributed to Mignini, (Chapter 11) with Comodi telling him to withdraw it, which he did reluctantly.

Times online UK may be credible, but i think Burleigh is moreso.

ETA: I think this theory of Mignini's may actually be brought up in the "Questura" Chapter 11 and another. I skipped around but do know I was impressed with reading how M. kept questioning about Hallowtide and that night of the dead, and about witchcraft and Masonic and Satanic ritualism.

 

[SMK]

Excerpts from a recent review and commentary of Burleigh's book:

Powerful assessment of a tragic crime and its disastrous aftermath.

The 2007 murder of British student Meredith Kercher in the university town of Perugia, Italy, at first seemed scandalously comprehensible: The victim&#8217;s amoral American housemate, Amanda Knox, bewitched two Italian men into a &#8220;sex game&#8221; gone bad. Journalist and Elle contributing editor Burleigh (Unholy Business: A True Tale of Faith, Greed, and Forgery in the Holy Land, 2008, etc.) argues that Knox and her equally naive boyfriend became unwitting scapegoats to a fumbled investigation and a volatile mix of Italian gender issues and local mores (she adeptly portrays Perugia as a gritty, conservative region with a tangled history).

Although authorities quickly convicted Rudy Guede, a troubled local, they then successfully prosecuted Knox despite a near-total lack of credible evidence, other than her strange outbursts and writings. &#8220;The scenario presented by the prosecution was not very plausible,&#8221; writes the author.

&#8220;The two students did not behave like guilty people&#8230;[but] were guilty of callous, blithe, and stupid behavior.&#8221; It was this that damned them from the Italian perspective, but Burleigh establishes that Knox&#8217;s adolescent self-indulgence was both typically American and reactive to a seamy European hedonism that is both moralistically condemned and economically tolerated.

She notes that in Italy, the police often sue defendants for slander, and &#8220;defense witnesses&#8230;are not sworn in, and they are presumed to be lying.&#8221; Ultimately, she argues, Knox simply made a more fascinating villain than Guede, despite his burglaries and damning forensic evidence. Her devastating conclusion shows how actual physical evidence supports Knox&#8217;s alibi and suggests that the disturbed Guede acted alone.

Burleigh&#8217;s propulsive narrative and the many unsettling aspects of the case make this a standout among recent true-crime titles.

http://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/non-fiction/nina-burleigh/fatal-gift-beauty/#review

 

[Allusonz]

Lol..the satanism thing came from the defense lawyers as you well know. There is evidence of all 3 of them at the crime scene during the murder which you already know as well.

I never thought that murder was their intention. You don't need to be best friends to turn against another. There is no time limit set on such a thing. I have seen fights in bars within an hour where people who just met join against another. It happens. All you need is something in common (like drinking or drugs), and another one who is not willing to join your 'fun'. AK explained most of the dynamics already in her confession. We were drunk, we just wanted some fun, she didn't want to join us, and he (RG) went after her. And so it all started.

BBM

That came from the prosecution in which Mignini even consulted a psychic.

This were the first 6 results of a quick google search and they all say prosecution not defense

at the culmination of a satanic rite, a prosecutor told a Perugia court yesterday.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...r-in-neck-as-part-of-satanic-rite-966242.html

Prosecutors on Saturday accused a University of Washington student of fatally stabbing her British house mate in a satanic rite in Perugia

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008283886_knox19.html

Prosecutors "alleged it was some kind of Satanic rite, with Amanda allegedly first touching Meredith with the point of a knife, then slitting her throat, while Sollecito held her by the shoulders, from behind, Guede held her by an arm" and tried to sexually penetrate her, Maori said.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,440482,00.html

An American student slit the throat of her British house mate in a Satanic rite, prosecutors told an Italian court today

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/mhidcwojcwmh/rss2/#ixzz1ULx9vOtr

Italian prosecutors yesterday accused Amanda Knox of stabbing to death the Leeds Univeristy exchange student Meredith Kercher in a satanic ritual with the complicity of her former boyfriend and an Ivory Coast drifter

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4968044.ece

Amanda Knox, an American exchange student, stabbed her British fellow student and flatmate Meredith Kercher in the neck at the culmination of a satanic rite, a prosecutor told a Perugia court yesterday

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...r-in-neck-as-part-of-satanic-rite-966242.html

 

[SMK]

The reviews of Burleigh's book online all say "Nonfiction Review". Here is another excerpt from another review:

Burleigh also skillfully launches a comprehensive journalistic investigation into the lives and backgrounds of the defendants. Through her research, she creates, for the first time, full character portraits of the three defendants in the case: Sollecito, a computer engineering student at the University of Perugia and a member of an affluent family; Guede, a mysterious Ivory Coast immigrant with a troubled childhood, a habitual home invader, and a criminal; and Knox, or &#8220;Foxy Knoxy&#8221; as she became known, the twenty-year-old University of Washington language student attending Perugia&#8217;s University for Foreigners. Burleigh also introduces us to an extraordinary cast of characters involved in the case, including Carlo Dalla Vedova, Knox&#8217;s chief attorney; Magistrate Giuliano Mignini, the morally stern prosecutor overseeing the case; Giacinto Profazio, a Perugia policeman; Giacamo Silenzi, a suave Italian boy who lived below Kercher and Knox; Patrick Lumumba, a local bar owner wrongly accused of the murder; and assorted policewomen, lawyers, and journalists&#8212;each with his or her own agenda.

THE FATAL GIFT OF BEAUTY is a thoughtful, compelling examination of an enduring mystery; an ancient, storied place; and a disquieting facet of Italian culture: its obsession with female eroticism. It is also an acute window into the minds and personalities of the accused killers and of the conservative Italian magistrate striving to make sense of an inexplicable act of evil. But at its core, it is an indelible portrait of Amanda Knox, the strangely childlike, enigmatic beauty whose photogenic face became the focal point of international speculation about the dark side of youth and freedom.



ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Nina Burleigh is an award-winning journalist and author of four previous books, including Mirage: Napoleon&#8217;s Scientists and the Unveiling of Egypt, which was selected by the New York Times as an Editors&#8217; Choice and winner of the Society of Women Educators&#8217; Award in 2008.

She has been a staff writer at Time and People, and her articles have appeared in The New Yorker, the Washington Post, the Chicago Tribune, New York, and The Huffington Post. She lives in New York.

http://crownpublishing.com/2011/08/01/press-release-the-fatal-gift-of-beauty-by-nina-burleigh/

 

[emyr]

*Snipped*. Don't be ridiculous. Pointing out to what the facts are and what the rumors are has nothing to do with any downplaying. The attempts to make RG look like a serial killer go all the way back to when the defense still was trying their lone wolf scenario. That is the only reason why all these rumors have popped up. Most of them originate from the defense themselves.

The truth is that if you look at the facts then you see nothing where you could foresee that any of these 3 would become murders. I don't read much into the rock throwing party of AK, or manga collection of RS either. And indeed I don't see any aggressive rapist murder in RG just because he stole some stuff. He even returned some of the stolen stuff. Where is the aggression?

IMO none of these 3 would ever by themselves murder anyone. This is where the group dynamic comes into play which is a very interesting discussion but obviously would not interest many posters here.

Thanks for clarifying, and this argument makes more sense to me.

At trial women did report being harassed by him, and some said he stole things from their handbag. On Sept 27, 2007 a bartender from Merlin's stated that Guede threatened him with a knife. So there is testimony of a history of aggression. I agree with you that if I had been an officer I would not have assumed he was headed so quickly for murder, but I would have thought he was on a downward spiral.

It is my opinion though that the story does support Rudy becoming a murderer.