Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #18

Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread

DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
:)

Clearly what happened is Amanda and Raffaelle went to the plaza and hung out for an hour and a half while tour buses and city buses picked up people dressed in costume, people intent on doing exciting things on a holiday night when all the shops were closed (and city buses were suspended). They then went to the cottage, and circumstantially met Rudy on the way. They abruptly killed Meredith, causing Rudy to flee.

Then, while one of them left to throw the cell phones in the garden, the other one frantically tried to clean out the bathroom, hooking up some sort of spray hose to cover the entirety of the bathroom in a fine mist of blood.

Anyone who sees it otherwise isn't looking at the facts.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

Ok this is good. I better stick to the science I simply cannot be this imaginative lol
 
Meredith's blood containing Knox's DNA was found In Filomena's room. It was heard in the trial and is in the Massei Report.

Dang and it was even on the rulers and feet of the forensics team that traversed back and forth from room to room and from the outside as their feet were glowing as well. How does one explain that?
 
It doesn't need to explode to cover surfaces, that's the nature of water..it 'flows'. You have two people that are bloody using that little bathroom...using the sink, the bidet and probably the shower...things are going to get pretty wet.

Would you not though have the nice lines as the water trickled down the walls? That is how it works in my shower. I can honestly state I have never seen water trickled upwards save in zero gravity
 
I'm not a star I'm afraid. You have the report, use the search function or read the sections regarding Filomena's room. It's not as though the blood with Amanda's DNA isn't well documented.

Perhaps if you read it better and with some care, it may not read like 'toilet paper'.

Interestingly enough what else is documented well are all those people walking around in that cottage :giggle:
 
Yeah, I saw their erroneous and scientifically disprovable conclusions. I'm glad you take them at face value. If the report told you the world was flat, would you quote that from it too?
Scientifically disprovable? When..where?
 
No one did a confirmatory blood test. Therefore if Massei concluded it was blood, his report is erroneous in this regard. We have been through this before.
Yes, many times. Your 'therefore' statement does not make any sense. If they exclude the alternatives for blood with good argumentation then I don't see what is wrong with that.
 
Yes, many times. Your 'therefore' statement does not make any sense. If they exclude the alternatives for blood with good argumentation then I don't see what is wrong with that.
sherlockh,

The way one excludes the alternatives for blood is by doing the confirmatory tests. Your second sentence begins with the word "if." Are you in fact claiming that the forensic police or the prosecution did indeed exclude the other alternatives? If so, would you please elucidate precisely how this was done?
 
sherlockh,

The way one excludes the alternatives for blood is by doing the confirmatory tests. Your second sentence begins with the word "if." Are you in fact claiming that the forensic police or the prosecution did indeed exclude the other alternatives? If so, would you please elucidate precisely how this was done?
By reasoning. There is a difference between a scientist and a judge. Of course it would be nice if everything could be confirmed by scientific tests, but it doesn't always work like that.

The judges use logical reasoning to exclude the alternatives. If I put a knife in my arm then I don't need any test to know for sure that that red stuff coming out of my arm is blood. I don't see what is wrong with judges drawing conclusions based on logical arguments.
 
By reasoning. There is a difference between a scientist and a judge. Of course it would be nice if everything could be confirmed by scientific tests, but it doesn't always work like that.

The judges use logical reasoning to exclude the alternatives. If I put a knife in my arm then I don't need any test to know for sure that that red stuff coming out of my arm is blood. I don't see what is wrong with judges drawing conclusions based on logical arguments.
sherlockh,

Your answer is lacking in specifics, and your comparison is a weak one. Bot theory and experience (see Sara Gino's testimony) tell us that catalytic tests (luminol, TMB, Kastle-Meyer, etc.) provide false positives. When the confirmatory tests come back negative, the FBI labs state that the presence of blood could not be confirmed. That implies that presumptive testing is not sufficient to conclude that blood is present. I'll give you a example of something that cuts no ice whatsoever, namely Ms Comodi's saying words to the effect, "Blood or turnip juice? You decide." Any prosecutor could say that, and if it had any validity as an argument, there would be no need for confirmatory tests.

Did you read the link I provided? Here is a link to the abstract of a recent review article by someone with a national reputation in forensic science. The article goes through both confirmatory and presumptive tests.
"Analysis of body fluids for forensic purposes: From laboratory testing
to non-destructive rapid confirmatory identification at a crime scene," Kelly Virkler and Igor K. Lednev, Forensic Science International 188 (2009) 1–17.
 
sherlockh,

Your answer is lacking in specifics, and your comparison is a weak one. Bot theory and experience (see Sara Gino's testimony) tell us that catalytic tests (luminol, TMB, Kastle-Meyer, etc.) provide false positives. When the confirmatory tests come back negative, the FBI labs state that the presence of blood could not be confirmed. That implies that presumptive testing is not sufficient to conclude that blood is present. I'll give you a example of something that cuts no ice whatsoever, namely Ms Comodi's saying words to the effect, "Blood or turnip juice? You decide." Any prosecutor could say that, and if it had any validity as an argument, there would be no need for confirmatory tests.

Did you read the link I provided? Here is a link to the abstract of a recent review article by someone with a national reputation in forensic science. The article goes through both confirmatory and presumptive tests.
"Analysis of body fluids for forensic purposes: From laboratory testing
to non-destructive rapid confirmatory identification at a crime scene," Kelly Virkler and Igor K. Lednev, Forensic Science International 188 (2009) 1–17.
Again, you just point at the scientific part. There is no point in that. I already explained that there is a difference between scientists and judges. If the scientific part is not conclusive then judges are free to use their own reasoning (by putting things in context for example) and to draw their own conclusions. It is not unusual. In fact, that is their job.
 
knoxwindows.jpg

The cottage has two apartments. The one on the upper floor is where Kercher, Know and the two Italian women lived. The lower floor is where the four guys lived that Rudy knew lived. The windows on the lower floor are all protected by burglar bars. Your circle on the left side is an entry to the lower apartment. There is no internal connection between the two apartments.

As you can see from your photo, the upstairs balcony is in full view of the street. At night, the streetlight visible in the photo illuminates that side of the building. As do the headlights of cars coming heading west. At night, Filomena's window is in the shadows.
 
Again, you just point at the scientific part. There is no point in that. I already explained that there is a difference between scientists and judges. If the scientific part is not conclusive then judges are free to use their own reasoning (by putting things in context for example) and to draw their own conclusions. It is not unusual. In fact, that is their job.

In fact they kinda have to in the Italian System, don't they? They have to write a Motivations Report summarizing all the evidence against the accused. Then it goes automatically to the appeals court, which then reads it along with the defense appeal documents. This happens for every single crime of this nature which isn't fast-tracked, and as I'm sure you heard, a lot of them get overturned.

In this case, they relied on a lot of dubious 'evidence,' which Giancarlo Massei had to spend pages and pages trying to establish as legitimate and relevant. I'm betting he didn't want to do that, in fact he might have envied Michaeli getting to write Rudy Guede's Motivations, I don't think they were paid by the page. So if Massei has to continuously accept low probability scenarios, and even those which defy known scientific principles, it's probably a pretty good hint the wrong verdict was reached. He might even know that as he's writing it, you can kinda tell the way he just piles bilge on top of the cesspool which is what the 11:40 time of death argument amounts to.

Hellmann is not bound to any of these arguments. He's free to dismiss the luminol stains as meaningless, which is what they very probably are, being as they tested negative for blood and a fair number resemble abstract art rather than the foot or shoe prints they're supposed to be. The judge in the trial of the first instance is bound to try to make a way for the evidence to work if a verdict is reached, he can't just throw up his hands, tell the world 'I can't write a Motivations Report using this evidence! Sorry, I didn't realize how silly the case is! Let 'em go!' Instead he tries to think of a way it could still possibly work, which is what he did all the way through the report on every single piece of physical 'evidence.'

Perhaps that's the part that's confusing you, the silly theories in Massei are just indications of how poor the verdict is and how the evidence doesn't support the conviction. They're not set in stone, and where they conflict with observed scientific principles, logic, and probability, Hellmann is highly likely to choose the more rational explanation. Massei couldn't, he was bound by the verdict and had to try to make it work, Hellmann gets to see how silly it was and not make the same mistake twice!
 
Who cares what Daily Mail readers thought? How's it relevant to either the investigation or the trial what Daily Mail readers think?

Alas I was not responding to a poster on the Daily Mail but here on websleuths :)
 
In fact they kinda have to in the Italian System, don't they? They have to write a Motivations Report summarizing all the evidence against the accused. Then it goes automatically to the appeals court, which then reads it along with the defense appeal documents. This happens for every single crime of this nature which isn't fast-tracked, and as I'm sure you heard, a lot of them get overturned.

In this case, they relied on a lot of dubious 'evidence,' which Giancarlo Massei had to spend pages and pages trying to establish as legitimate and relevant. I'm betting he didn't want to do that, in fact he might have envied Michaeli getting to write Rudy Guede's Motivations, I don't think they were paid by the page. So if Massei has to continuously accept low probability scenarios, and even those which defy known scientific principles, it's probably a pretty good hint the wrong verdict was reached. He might even know that as he's writing it, you can kinda tell the way he just piles bilge on top of the cesspool which is what the 11:40 time of death argument amounts to.

Hellmann is not bound to any of these arguments. He's free to dismiss the luminol stains as meaningless, which is what they very probably are, being as they tested negative for blood and a fair number resemble abstract art rather than the foot or shoe prints they're supposed to be. The judge in the trial of the first instance is bound to try to make a way for the evidence to work if a verdict is reached, he can't just throw up his hands, tell the world 'I can't write a Motivations Report using this evidence! Sorry, I didn't realize how silly the case is! Let 'em go!' Instead he tries to think of a way it could still possibly work, which is what he did all the way through the report on every single piece of physical 'evidence.'

Perhaps that's the part that's confusing you, the silly theories in Massei are just indications of how poor the verdict is and how the evidence doesn't support the conviction. They're not set in stone, and where they conflict with observed scientific principles, logic, and probability, Hellmann is highly likely to choose the more rational explanation. Massei couldn't, he was bound by the verdict and had to try to make it work, Hellmann gets to see how silly it was and not make the same mistake twice!

:welcome:

Hands you a special designer straight jacket for this thread

Great perspective with respect to the Motivational Report
 
The cottage has two apartments. The one on the upper floor is where Kercher, Know and the two Italian women lived. The lower floor is where the four guys lived that Rudy knew lived. The windows on the lower floor are all protected by burglar bars. Your circle on the left side is an entry to the lower apartment. There is no internal connection between the two apartments.

As you can see from your photo, the upstairs balcony is in full view of the street. At night, the streetlight visible in the photo illuminates that side of the building. As do the headlights of cars coming heading west. At night, Filomena's window is in the shadows.

:welcome:

You have put what so many of us have been trying to get across so well

As well gives you a designer straight jacket (it comes in handy) especially on my private asylum in the caribbean :)
 
She didn't bring up a non-existent telephone call, the telephone call happened. Just because she made a general reference to the time of it (midday) instead of saying its exact time, does not mean it can then be argued that she was referring to a non-existent call.

However, you seem to have no problem with Raffaele referring to non-existent computer activity, or Amanda referring to non-existent deep conversations about suicided mothers and school bullying, long showers with ear cleaning. long bouts of love making and the rest of the huge list of things they either claimed they did and never happened, or claimed they did but actually happened many hours earlier.

I guess this could technically be viewed as either a non-existant telephone call or a non-existent time for a call. Either way you view it there was no call made at the time Comodi indicated
 
That was because the scratch is only visible under intense light. She had to shine a lamp on it to find it.

What do you mean 'too low'?

How odd yet when the experts tried to find same said scratch they could not. They did though test the spot for blood and as I am sure you are aware it tested negative. SV provided those results for you
 
Like I said, my personal belief (which is supported by a range of clues) is that they were planning on playing a 'prank'. For that, three things needed to be in place...Meredith needed to be home and alone at the cottage, and all those who were going to take part in playing the prank needed to be present. There also perhaps needed to be some last minute discussion on how they were going to play it. I believe it was these things they were waiting for.

If they waited 'in' the flat, then they couldn't surprise Meredith (if she was already home or arrived home while they waited) with their prank...could they? The prank depended on surprise.

Interesting. If I am understanding this correctly "clues" carry more weight than "fact". Have not played that game in years (Clue that is)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
149
Guests online
477
Total visitors
626

Forum statistics

Threads
604,676
Messages
18,175,268
Members
232,798
Latest member
Crankymomma
Back
Top