Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #18

[sherlockh]

So basically what you are saying is, believe in the science up to the point where it supports my bias (i.e. the science confirms the presence of both of their DNA) but then ignore the science as soon as it stops supporting my bias (i.e. that the substance was probably not blood) and then fall back on conjecture.

No wonder you still believe she is guilty with logic circuits as faulty as that. Someone call the android engineer, we've got a malfunction.

Mmhh, no sorry. That is not what I said at all. Try again...or maybe better not.

 

[Fulcanelli]

So basically what you are saying is, believe in the science up to the point where it supports my bias (i.e. the science confirms the presence of both of their DNA) but then ignore the science as soon as it stops supporting my bias (i.e. that the substance was probably not blood) and then fall back on conjecture.

No wonder you still believe she is guilty with logic circuits as faulty as that. Someone call the android engineer, we've got a malfunction.

Because the science doesn't say that the prints were not blood. And to say it is not blood is to say it is something 'else' and since everything else can be reasonably ruled out, what we have are prints and other marks that react with luminol in a house full of blood. Further, if that's not enough, these marks are relatively rare...which kind of means it isn't some innocent reactive substance that has been used or spread around the cottage in the weeks previous to the murder as the place would be covered with it. Finally, we have barefoot prints that light up with luminol. We have a barefoot print on the bath mat that is in visible blood which is a match for Sollecito. One of the barefoot luminol corridor prints is also a match for Sollecito. I would think that any fool, not least an experienced court judge assisted by 7 others, would conclude that those prints are in blood. I for one, fail to see what possible 'logic' there is for concluding they are something 'else', something 'unknown', something that has not been found in the cottage. Were this mysterious substance ever to be actually produced...then the defence might have a possible tangible argument to posit. But until then, it's all so much nonsense.

 

[Ratunta]

How would I know what time they arranged? It could have been a loose arrangement. Alternatively it may not have been arranged and Rudy just happened to come along....since that was where he hanged out. As for Amanda, she may not have even remembered she had to work when (if) the arrangement was made...I mean, her memory isn't great, is it? Regarding Raffaele, he didn't even arrange to give someone a lift until the early evening. If they had bumped into Rudy in town, it would have been before that. As for the lift itself, it was cancelled pretty soon after he agreed to do it. Had it not have been, they still had plenty of time to do what they wanted to do before it was time for him to give the girl a lift. And hey, he could always cancel if he wanted/needed to.

You don't have to be specific, just choose from one of the following times and tell me which one works with Amanda thinking she is at work and Raf thinking he has an appointment and the times they were reportedly seen.

9pm?
9.30pm?
10pm?
10.30pm?
11pm?
11.30pm?
Later?
Earlier?

And you didn't answer my question as to WHY they would have arranged to meet Rudy. What do you think the purpose of the meeting was?

 

[Ratunta]

Not when they wiped things over shortly after and effectively spread it about.

Why would they spread it all over the ceiling? And if they were doing such a thorough job of it, why did they leave blood in the sink? And before you say "they forgot" consider that Raf told the police about the blood when he called them, and Amanda led the Postal Police to it when they arrived (as per Massei Report)

 

[Ratunta]

Mmhh, no sorry. That is not what I said at all. Try again...or maybe better not.

I hit the nail on the head first time, so no need for a second try.

 

[Ratunta]

Because the science doesn't say that the prints were not blood.

Ohhh, and there was me thinking that a negative test for blood meant it was a negative test for blood.

And to say it is not blood is to say it is something 'else'

Wow, your reasoning skills are coming along brilliantly

and since everything else can be reasonably ruled out

Awww, I spoke too soon.

Further, if that's not enough, these marks are relatively rare

Rare in the house or rare in general? If you are saying in the house, you are demonstrably incorrect

We have a barefoot print on the bath mat that is in visible blood which is a match for Sollecito.

A MATCH for Sollecito? A MATCH?

One of the barefoot luminol corridor prints is also a match for Sollecito

Yeaaah, that's a complete lie.

 

[Fulcanelli]

You don't have to be specific, just choose from one of the following times and tell me which one works with Amanda thinking she is at work and Raf thinking he has an appointment and the times they were reportedly seen.

9pm?
9.30pm?
10pm?
10.30pm?
11pm?
11.30pm?
Later?
Earlier?

And you didn't answer my question as to WHY they would have arranged to meet Rudy. What do you think the purpose of the meeting was?

You are assuming Amanda remembered she had work, or even remembered byt intended on going in. Has it occurred to you that she might have planned to skip work? People do that all the time, especially when you and essentially, are on holiday...as Amanda was. At the same time, it was a holiday in Perugia...she had a new boyfriend to hang with. Also, she may have had some unfinished business from the previous night. She also new the bar was unlikely to be busy...she wouldn't have been missed. I don't think the fact she was scheduled to work is any sort of alibi at all I'm afraid. Neither do I think Raffaele's (very fleeting) agreed trip to the station us any sort of alibi.

As to why they may have arranged to meet Rudy...in order to play their prank. Or, to score some drugs, or just to hang out. Any combination of these. And again I say, it also may have been they simply bumped into him around the time they were at the park. It's a very small town is Perugia...so small, Ridy lived only 140 steps away from Raffaele's apartment and the cottage was only a 4 minute walh from there.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Why would they spread it all over the ceiling? And if they were doing such a thorough job of it, why did they leave blood in the sink? And before you say "they forgot" consider that Raf told the police about the blood when he called them, and Amanda led the Postal Police to it when they arrived (as per Massei Report)

They didn't spread it over the ceiling.

The partial clean-up was never intended to hide the fact there had been a murder, they could never do that. It was simply to remove obvious visible traces of themselves and to delay the discovery of the crime, so that it wasn't obvious at a glance that something had happened. They were also limited by time. They knew the murder was going to be discovered, they just wanted to gave some degree of control over how and when that discovery happened. And by pointing out such things as the blood etc, it was to give the appearance of innocence. They were your typical 'overly helpful perps'.

 

[Ratunta]

You are assuming Amanda remembered she had work, or even remembered byt intended on going in. Has it occurred to you that she might have planned to skip work? People do that all the time, especially when you and essentially, are on holiday...as Amanda was. At the same time, it was a holiday in Perugia...she had a new boyfriend to hang with. Also, she may have had some unfinished business from the previous night. She also new the bar was unlikely to be busy...she wouldn't have been missed. I don't think the fact she was scheduled to work is any sort of alibi at all I'm afraid. Neither do I think Raffaele's (very fleeting) agreed trip to the station us any sort of alibi.

As to why they may have arranged to meet Rudy...in order to play their prank. Or, to score some drugs, or just to hang out. Any combination of these. And again I say, it also may have been they simply bumped into him around the time they were at the park. It's a very small town is Perugia...so small, Ridy lived only 140 steps away from Raffaele's apartment and the cottage was only a 4 minute walh from there.

So Amanda might have decided to skip work, and Raff was going to forego his responsibilities that evening, because earlier in the day they had bumped into Rudy Guede, and Amanda, being translated into Italian by Raff for Rudy's benefit, had explained to him that they intended to play a prank on Meredith? And they wanted to include him in this prank, which was so important they were going to skip work to carry out, even though Raff had never met him and Amanda had never had a conversation with him before that date? So her first conversation with him was "For unknown reasons we are going to play a prank on my flatmate this evening, and even though we don't know you, we would like you to join in"?

That's all fine, but I was just wondering, on which planet do you believe all this might have occurred? And why did this amazing theory never make it into court?

 

[Ratunta]

They didn't spread it over the ceiling.

The partial clean-up was never intended to hide the fact there had been a murder, they could never do that. It was simply to remove obvious visible traces of themselves and to delay the discovery of the crime, so that it wasn't obvious at a glance that something had happened. They were also limited by time. They knew the murder was going to be discovered, they just wanted to gave some degree of control over how and when that discovery happened. And by pointing out such things as the blood etc, it was to give the appearance of innocence. They were your typical 'overly helpful perps'.

Delay the discovery of the crime to what end? And how was it to their advantage to leave the blood in the sink?

 

[Fulcanelli]

Ohhh, and there was me thinking that a negative test for blood meant it was a negative test for blood.



Wow, your reasoning skills are coming along brilliantly



Awww, I spoke too soon.



Rare in the house or rare in general? If you are saying in the house, you are demonstrably incorrect



A MATCH for Sollecito? A MATCH?



Yeaaah, that's a complete lie.

There wasn't a negative blood test. Only a confirmatory blood test can be used to state a sample is negative for blood. Presumptive blood tests cannot be used to rule out the presence of blood (nor by themselves, confirm its presence). The test that provided a negative result was a TMB test and that is a presumptive blood test. The problem with TMB is it's a lot less sensitive then luminol and in this case we are talking about extremely small sample amounts, so small in fact, some of them didn't render a DNA profile and those that did were Low Copy Number. A TMB test is not sensitive enough to pick up traces that low. Luminol is and it did.

The luminol reactions in the house? Rare in the house, relatively speaking. For example, there was only a small handful of footprints in the corridor and Amanda's bedroom, one single luminol hit in Filomena's room. No luminol hits in the living room, kitchen, laundry room, large bathroom or Laura's room.

All the luminol footprints were a match for Amanda Knox, except for one in the corridor that was a match for Sollecito. There was also a visible barefoot print in blood on the bath mat which was a match for Sollecito.

By the way, as an aside, Knox and Sollecito had only been seeing each other for a week...so not only are you looking for a mysterious magical substance that isn't blood, you are looking for one that the twosome padded around in in the seven days leading yo to the murder...a cottage where Amanda hardly ever stayed (spending most of her time at Raffaele's or out) and Raffaele hardly ever went (being mostly at his with Amanda or out). So, where is your turnip juice? And why should the court conclude that it was turnip juice, rather then blood?

 

[Ratunta]

There wasn't a negative blood test. Only a confirmatory blood test can be used to state a sample is negative for blood. Presumptive blood tests cannot be used to rule out the presence of blood (nor by themselves, confirm its presence). The test that provided a negative result was a TMB test and that is a presumptive blood test. The problem with TMB is it's a lot less sensitive then luminol and in this case we are talking about extremely small sample amounts, so small in fact, some of them didn't render a DNA profile and those that did were Low Copy Number. A TMB test is not sensitive enough to pick up traces that low. Luminol is and it did.

The luminol reactions in the house? Rare in the house, relatively speaking. For example, there was only a small handful of footprints in the corridor and Amanda's bedroom, one single luminol hit in Filomena's room. No luminol hits in the living room, kitchen, laundry room, large bathroom or Laura's room.

All the luminol footprints were a match for Amanda Knox, except for one in the corridor that was a match for Sollecito. There was also a visible barefoot print in blood on the bath mat which was a match for Sollecito.

By the way, as an aside, Knox and Sollecito had only been seeing each other for a week...so not only are you looking for a mysterious magical substance that isn't blood, you are looking for one that the twosome padded around in in the seven days leading yo to the murder...a cottage where Amanda hardly ever stayed (spending most of her time at Raffaele's or out) and Raffaele hardly ever went (being mostly at his with Amanda or out). So, where is your turnip juice? And why should the court conclude that it was turnip juice, rather then blood?

You have 30 seconds to cite your source for a footprint MATCHING Raff's in the corridor which was made in blood. If the source is reliable, I will never again believe for one second that the pair are innocent.

 

[Fulcanelli]

So Amanda might have decided to skip work, and Raff was going to forego his responsibilities that evening, because earlier in the day they had bumped into Rudy Guede, and Amanda, being translated into Italian by Raff for Rudy's benefit, had explained to him that they intended to play a prank on Meredith? And they wanted to include him in this prank, which was so important they were going to skip work to carry out, even though Raff had never met him and Amanda had never had a conversation with him before that date? So her first conversation with him was "For unknown reasons we are going to play a prank on my flatmate this evening, and even though we don't know you, we would like you to join in"?

That's all fine, but I was just wondering, on which planet do you believe all this might have occurred? And why did this amazing theory never make it into court?

Raffaele had no responsibilities that evening. The girl had cancelled.

Rudy can speak English.

How do you know Raffaele had never met Rudy? Because Raffaele and Rudy say so?

They could have talked about a lot of things before Amanda brought up the prank. But hey, the prank is just the scenario I personally favour....there are others that do too...it may not have been a prank. It could just have been a plan to go over to the cottage to share some drugs and party and Meredith wasn't havung any of it. You pays yer money you takes yer choice.

 

[Kaosium]

When you say ILE, do you mean the Carabinieri? I don't know what the ILE is.

When you're dealing with so many different police organizations it's much easier to refer to them in general as ILE. (Italian Law Enforcement)

Otherwise one can get lost in italics when you have the Carabiniri and the Polizia di Stato, along with sub-components such as the Servizio Centrale Operativo, Polizia Scientifica, Polizia Penitenziaria, and Polizia Postale. In the crime scene videos I've seen Italian police running around with yet another designation on the back of their jackets, but I was afraid to look to close lest I have to try to remember yet another Italian word, and put italics around it as well, and I've decided the only other words I need to know in Italian regarding their police is Smettere di mentire--prendermi un avvocato!

What is published in the UK tabloid did not come from the Italian prosecutor's office and therefore there is nothing proving that the prosecutor's office released false information.

Oh, Vey.

Let's establish some goalposts here. Is there anything that will convince you the Italian police and prosecutors produce false information to the press? Let's start with this:

On November 6th, 2007, they arrested Amanda, Raffaele and Patrick on the basis of two statements that amount to little more than an opium dream where Amanda vaguely and confusedly doesn't actually remember the murder part, which she immediately clarifies with a note explaining she doesn't know if it was real or a dream, and all the yelling and hitting didn't help due to the stress, shock and extreme exhaustion. Raffaele signs a curious statement that has nothing to do with any murder. Obviously Patrick tells them nothing about a murder.

Two days later, with none of them permitted to see lawyers in the interim, they are produced before Matteini and a bizarre pornographic theory based on mistaken, imagined and false evidence is produced before the Court. The forensics aren't even in, where did this perverse hypothesis come from? Why is basically all the 'evidence' for it false? Isn't that either a huge clue they got the wrong people, or at the very least they give false information to the courts and the press?

Here's a page you ought to spend some time reading, it will show you the Matteini Report and then the press reports of the time of that document. You ought to wonder just what kind of police organization and prosecution proposes such bizarre theories on extremely limited and dubious information. Then perhaps the events of the next few weeks will make more sense. It wasn't just tabloid mistakes, they certainly bear some of the blame, but there was a pattern of mendacity from the police and prosecution in this case that defies description and understanding for those unused to a paradigm where the prosecutors are considered avatars of incorruptibility and and criticizing police is often cause for a calunnia or diffamazione charge. There's about twenty people so far who've have investigations started or charges filed on them for daring to contest the police and prosecutor on this case.

The whole case is false, Otto. That's what happens when you arrest innocent people on mistaken and coincidental evidence and don't release them all when the real perpetrator is caught. The reason they did that was to maintain the original theory was true, but as you can see, that hypothesis was based on whole cloth, they never had evidence any of it ever occurred, and even fired the coroner who told them it was a one person killing, something every forensic expert outside the prosecutors team has said, and even they had to allow the possibility in court, as per Massei.

Mignini just made it up, just like he did the last one where he was digging up bodies checking pants sizes and haircuts, sniffing around for Satanic cults to pin murder cases a generation old. He's delusional, and vindictive, and he's probably going to prison for it, sometime after Raffaele and Amanda are happy and free to live their lives as they deserve.

 

[Fulcanelli]

You have 30 seconds to cite your source for a footprint MATCHING Raff's in the corridor which was made in blood. If the source is reliable, I will never again believe for one second that the pair are innocent.

It's in the forensics report. Frank published it on his site shortly before the pre-trial.

 

[Fulcanelli]

The whole case is false, Otto. That's what happens when you arrest innocent people on mistaken and coincidental evidence and don't release them all when the real perpetrator is caught. The reason they did that was to maintain the original theory was true, but as you can see, that hypothesis was based on whole cloth, they never had evidence any of it ever occurred, and even fired the coroner who told them it was a one person killing, something every forensic expert outside the prosecutors team has said, and even they had to allow the possibility in court, as per Massei.

The coroner never told them it was a one person killing, that's patently false.

 

[Allusonz]

There appears to be a blatent attempt to derail this thread by posting information which has been discredited and I must state that I don't appreciate this

ETA I for one do not wish to see this thread closed

 

[Ratunta]

It's in the forensics report. Frank published it on his site shortly before the pre-trial.

By cite I mean a link, an ISBN and page number, ya know, something I can look at. Not a vague reference to a man named "Frank". Do you mean Sfarzo?

Did it come up in court at all? I would have thought it would have made it into the Massei report as it's as clear evidence as I've heard that they were involved in the murder.

 

[Allusonz]

The coroner never told them it was a one person killing, that's patently false.

In the testimony Dr. Lalli could not rule out whether it was one attacker or more than one.

 

[Kaosium]

As opposed to low probability scenarios like Amanda and Raffaele padding around the cottage barefoot in turnip juice? Or contamination by 'dust'? Low probability scenarios like that?

Fulcanelli, those stains could have been made at any time! They could have been there for weeks, months, even years! Do you think the ones they found at Raffaele's were turnip juice? They could be any number of things, the one thing that has been basically eliminated is that they were made of blood, that's what the TMB test does, eliminates blood. That's why Hellmann will choose the far higher probability scenario that they are anything but blood.

The scenario described in Massei that they failed the TMB test due to massive dilution is disproved by the pictures themselves which are far too luminous for blood diluted below even 10k:1. At this point if you want to argue they're blood you're left with admitting Stefanoni lied in court, that the crime scene photos were...conveniently...overexposed and then you're back to having to contend with at least 250 different items found in households that can light up luminol. Then you'd have to come up with a scenario in which those splotches can be connected to the crime anyway, with no clean-up and no discernible pattern to them, and many of them not even looking like footprints, and the one that's perfect, doesn't look like Amanda's unless you're into the sinister toe-stretching plot!

Dust is hardly the only possible contaminant, I'd say the sloppy way the Polizia Scientifica handled that crime scene they could have done it dozens of different ways. What did the court-appointed experts say? Fifty-some violations of standard forensic protocols breached as everyone laughed their way through the videos in court? No wonder there were four or more contributors to that allele soup on that tiny clasp! Haven't you ever wondered how they could have all gotten there legitimately? That thing is tiny, and shouldn't actually even be handled in the normal operation of the item anyway, plus it was normally shielded by the fabric.