Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #18

[Chris_Halkides]

Again, you just point at the scientific part. There is no point in that. I already explained that there is a difference between scientists and judges. If the scientific part is not conclusive then judges are free to use their own reasoning (by putting things in context for example) and to draw their own conclusions. It is not unusual. In fact, that is their job.

sherlockh, Fulcanelli, and others,

Everthing I have said or quoted is in the context of forensics, which some define as "the application of science to the law." With respect to luminol, draino, rusty water, and some cleaning products are capable of providing a false positive. If one believes that they were set in bloody water, how about explaining how and when they were made?

With respect to the Kastle-Meyer test, it is very difficult to see how one could apply the hydrogen peroxide quickly enough over the area seen in the photo. One only has five seconds or so: "A positive reaction is indicated by the development of a pink colour within 5 seconds. Reactions occurring after 5 seconds, or before the addition of the hydrogen peroxide are inconclusive. A pink colour after phenolphthalein has been applied but before hydrogen peroxide has been applied normally indicates a false positive due to an oxidising agent being present. Rust could cause a false reading of this type."

 

[Kaosium]

The coroner never told them it was a one person killing, that's patently false.

I'm talking about the man who was fired for, get this, 'talking to the media.' That was Dr. Lalli, was it not? He thought any more than one attacker in that tiny room implausible, as should anyone who looks at it, and then realizes there's only evidence of one person other than Meredith there, Rudy Guede, and he's got bloody shoeprints, DNA evidence on the clothes, inside the victim, on the purse, as well as a bloody handprint.

Anything more than a one attacker scenario is akin to 'making water run uphill' in hopes of 'fingering a refreshing fee.'

 

[Allusonz]

Actually, Amanda provided the pornographic theory. It was she that said she took Patrick to the cottage so they could "have some fun with Meredith". And Meredith was sexually assaulted and stripped naked and all...

Cite please regarding AK providing the pornographic theory

 

[Kaosium]

Actually, Amanda provided the pornographic theory. It was she that said she took Patrick to the cottage so they could "have some fun with Meredith". And Meredith was sexually assaulted and stripped naked and all...

None of that happened, Fulcanelli, and there's no wild sex game four-way going on there either. It just places Amanda at the scene of the crime while one person kills her. Nothing kinky, nothing crazy, just a murder that started with consensual sex.

 

[Kaosium]

Neither the police nor the court ever knew about the prank Amanda had reportedly played on her housemate back in Seattle.

Fulcanelli, how many times have I posted on comments sections, blogs and websites that Amanda is an innocent cherub being abused by dastardly beings? How come you don't believe that too! I posted it! It was reported! You can even e-mail me and I'll tell you the same thing in even more detail!

See how that works, call it fast track innocentisti!

 

[RoseMontague]

Why would she want to look at it under the scope? Her aim was to find a scratch, she found it, she didn't need a scope. Her next aim was to sample it for DNA, she didn't need a scope for that either.

As for her testimony, why are you using Google Translate when you'll mind her testimony on the matter in the Massei Report (along with Massei's view on that testimony), which has been translated to English?

I attached the full transcript in Italian for that day's testimony. Massei does not relate everything she says and in my opinion is guilty of cherry picking things that support his opinion.

As pointed out in the C&V report Stefanoni did not make an attempt to determine exactly what the sample was comprised of. We do know it is not blood. If she had done the tests that C&V did she may have concluded her sample was not human cells/tissue at all.

 

[RoseMontague]

Fulcanelli, how many times have I posted on comments sections, blogs and websites that Amanda is an innocent cherub being abused by dastardly beings? How come you don't believe that too! I posted it! It was reported! You can even e-mail me and I'll tell you the same thing in even more detail!

See how that works, call it fast track innocentisti!

Thanks for that Kaosium. It must be true.

 

[RoseMontague]

Um...no.

I posted the picture earlier of the high resolution photo showing the luminol reaction on the tech's boot. Must have spilt some turnip juice on hisself, I guess.

 

[Kaosium]

Actually, the purpose of the appeal is simply to afford the defence an opportunity to challenge the content of the document. It is not an acknowledgement that the document is likely to be wholly incorrect.

That's what I said, I just used more words!

And actually, not a very high number of convictions are overturned on appeal...the figure is 11% (by the final appeal)...I wouldn't call that very high.

I've gotten wildly different figures from a variety of sources, ironically the highest was Machiavelli's! I would love to see a reliable cite for that, whatever the figure, 11% is awfully high, and when you take the Bayesian considerations of the independent court-appointed experts who flung the DNA evidence in the Tiber and exposed the crime-scene tapes as the black comedy they were, as well as left the prosecutor sputtering with rage giving interviews from the barroom which ought to get her charged, I'd say that number is high enough to basically ensure an acquittal.

Can you cite another case in Italy where the prosecution has been so thoroughly humiliated in court on the appeal? Whose last best hope appeared to be the entertainment provided by Alessi's fantasy life?

 

[Fulcanelli]

There appears to be a blatent attempt to derail this thread by posting information which has been discredited and I must state that I don't appreciate this

ETA I for one do not wish to see this thread closed

Here you go:

During testimony in court Friday Lorenzo Rinaldi, director of the print identity department of the Italian Police, said that a bloody footprint found on the rug in the bathroom across from the room where murdered British exchange student Meredith Kercher's body was found was compatible with that of Raffaele Sollecito.

Rinaldi also testified that two latent bare footprints highlighted by luminol, a chemical used to detect blood, are compatible with Amanda Knox's foot. Another bare footprint highlighted by luminol, found in the hallway, was positively identified as belonging to Sollecito.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/International/story?id=7538538&page=1

 

[Fulcanelli]

In the testimony Dr. Lalli could not rule out whether it was one attacker or more than one.

It's never possible to absolutely 100% rule out one attacker or multiple attackers simply from injuries left on a body. But, the coroner testified that in his considered opinion the injuries are consistent with an attack by multiple assailants rather then a single assailant.

The other evidence at the crime scene supports multiple assailants and rules out a single attacker.

 

[Kaosium]

There wasn't a negative blood test. Only a confirmatory blood test can be used to state a sample is negative for blood. Presumptive blood tests cannot be used to rule out the presence of blood (nor by themselves, confirm its presence). The test that provided a negative result was a TMB test and that is a presumptive blood test. The problem with TMB is it's a lot less sensitive then luminol and in this case we are talking about extremely small sample amounts, so small in fact, some of them didn't render a DNA profile and those that did were Low Copy Number. A TMB test is not sensitive enough to pick up traces that low. Luminol is and it did.

How come those pictures were so chemiluminescent if the blood was so diluted that a TMB test failed? Explain how that one works. Use words like reagent, oxidize, catalyze and pseudoperoxidase and hemoglobin.

The luminol reactions in the house? Rare in the house, relatively speaking. For example, there was only a small handful of footprints in the corridor and Amanda's bedroom, one single luminol hit in Filomena's room. No luminol hits in the living room, kitchen, laundry room, large bathroom or Laura's room.

Why would they even check there? If they were checking there, what would that imply about the integrity of their investigation that having to rush out to the crime scene to manufacture evidence on camera after having their pants pulled down and wedgied on TV by the Sollecitos didn't do?

All the luminol footprints were a match for Amanda Knox, except for one in the corridor that was a match for Sollecito. There was also a visible barefoot print in blood on the bath mat which was a match for Sollecito.

Oh, come on! I see a mermaid! I'm sure you see Atlanteans. The only one that is actually crystal clear requires the Great Toe Stretching conspiracy, otherwise it isn't Amanda's. It's also nowhere any murder scene, that's the one in Amanda's bedroom, isn't it? Hell, it could have been the girl who lived there previous, in fact it probably was.

By the way, as an aside, Knox and Sollecito had only been seeing each other for a week...so not only are you looking for a mysterious magical substance that isn't blood, you are looking for one that the twosome padded around in in the seven days leading yo to the murder...a cottage where Amanda hardly ever stayed (spending most of her time at Raffaele's or out) and Raffaele hardly ever went (being mostly at his with Amanda or out). So, where is your turnip juice? And why should the court conclude that it was turnip juice, rather then blood?

Compatible means possible in Italian legal parlance. They are also probably 'compatible' with half of Asia, including the panda bears. Do you really want me to break out the pictures and show the nice people what kind of prints you're pretending were 'attributed' to human beings?

 

[Fulcanelli]

Fulcanelli, those stains could have been made at any time! They could have been there for weeks, months, even years! Do you think the ones they found at Raffaele's were turnip juice? They could be any number of things, the one think that has been basically eliminated is that they were made of blood, that's what the TMB test does, eliminates blood. That's why Hellmann will choose the far higher probability scenario that they are anything but blood.

The scenario described in Massei that they failed the TMB test due to massive dilution is disproved by the pictures themselves which are far too luminous for blood diluted below even 10k:1. At this point if you want to argue they're blood you're left with admitting Stefanoni lied in court, that the crime scene photos were...conveniently...overexposed and then you're back to having to contend with at least 250 different items found in households that can light up luminol. Then you'd have to come up with a scenario in which those splotches can be connected to the crime anyway, with no clean-up and no discernible pattern to them, and many of them not even looking like footprints, and the one that's perfect, doesn't look like Amanda's unless you're into the sinister toe-stretching plot!

Dust is hardly the only possible contaminant, I'd say the sloppy way the Polizia Scientifica handled that crime scene they could have done it dozens of different ways? What did the court-appointed experts say? Fifty-some violations of standard forensic protocols breached as everyone laughed their way through the videos in court? No wonder there were four or more contributors to that allele soup on that tiny clasp! Haven't you ever wondered how they could have all gotten there legitimately? That thing is tiny, and shouldn't actually even be handled in the normal operation of the item anyway, plus it was normally shielded by the fabric.

Could...mighta......Doesn't cut it really. When there's been a murder, blood is all over the the place and you and your friend have your bare footprints in the victim's blood and you gave no alibi, you've got some explaining to do and the line 'they could have happened anytime' just doesn't wash...excuse the pun.

A TMB test does not eliminate the presence of blood. It is a presumptive blood test and as such cannot be used to eliminate the presence of blood. Only a confirmatory test can do that.

I'm not even going to attempt to discuss the 'too luminous' argument, it's one of the most ridiculous arguments I've heard so far. Incidentally, I recall you tried throwing that one at me before on another site...and I dealt with it there and then. Just because we are posting on a different site, I don't see that I should have to endlessly repeat myself with what I have already responded to you with elsewhere.

'Who's' protocols were breached? There is no such thing as universally agreed protocols.

 

[RoseMontague]

Here you go:

AMANDA KNOX'S APRIL FOOLS SKI MASK PRANK

http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/12/end_of_an_affair Post #15

The real "prank" here is when people say this has been "reported" as if it were something it is not.

 

[Ratunta]

Here you go:




http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/International/story?id=7538538&page=1

Did the words BLOOD and RELIABLE in my post somehow elude your attention?

 

[Sonata]

It's never possible to absolutely 100% rule out one attacker or multiple attackers sumply from injuries left on a body. But, the coronor testified that in his considered opinion the injuries are consistent with an attack by multiple assailants rather then a single assailant.

The other evidence at the crime scene sipports multiple assailants and riles out a single attacker.

Which other evidence at the crime scene suggests this?

 

[Ratunta]

Life is too short for this, there are Guilters out there with more scruples that I'd much rather engage because at least they don't pull stories of skipping work to pull pranks with strangers out of thin air to sustain their arguments.

I'll pop back to say hi at the end of the month though.

 

[Fulcanelli]

sherlockh, Fulcanelli, and others,

Everthing I have said or quoted is in the context of forensics, which some define as "the application of science to the law." With respect to luminol, draino, rusty water, and some cleaning products are capable of providing a false positive. If one believes that they were set in bloody water, how about explaining how and when they were made?

With respect to the Kastle-Meyer test, it is very difficult to see how one could apply the hydrogen peroxide quickly enough over the area seen in the photo. One only has five seconds or so: "A positive reaction is indicated by the development of a pink colour within 5 seconds. Reactions occurring after 5 seconds, or before the addition of the hydrogen peroxide are inconclusive. A pink colour after phenolphthalein has been applied but before hydrogen peroxide has been applied normally indicates a false positive due to an oxidising agent being present. Rust could cause a false reading of this type."

All the things you list can be completely ruled out.

Bleach:

1. Dissipates after 24 hours (is non-persistent), luminol wasn't applied until 17 days after the murder.

2. Bleach was never used in the house, as testified on the stand by the housemates.

3. Bleach reacts with luminol in a completely different way to blood which obvious. So obvious in fact, luminol is also the standard test to detect the presence of bleach.

Cleaning products:

1. Cleaning products that react with luminol do so because they contain bleach. See 'Bleach' above.

Draino:

1. Reacts with luminol because it contains bleach. See 'Bleach' above.

2. Are you seriously suggesting Amanda and Raffaele were padding around the cottage barefoot in corrosive drain cleaner?

Rusty Pipes:

1. If there were rusty pipes, then the whole cottage would be glowing since residue from 'rusty water' would be everywhere. It wasn't, just a small handful of very localised bare footprints and a few spots and smears. Special rusty water?

That leaves turnip juice.


Why all the intellectual gymnastics? Why not just accept the obvious explanation, the footprints were in blood?

The court came to the clear and obvious conclusion, supported by the evidence. Unless and until I hear some opposing evidence or argument worth squat, I'll go with that.

 

[Sonata]

Here you go:

AMANDA KNOX'S APRIL FOOLS SKI MASK PRANK

http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/12/end_of_an_affair Post #15

:floorlaugh:

So, what you're telling me is, some guy posted something on the internet saying that Knox had played a prank on her room mate in Seattle. He was contacted and said it was true according to a friend of his.

So, this is a story he got from someone, then repeated it, but will not officially come forward with it despite it obviously being relevant to the trial. I'm sorry but that suggests to me that this is a load of tripe. I do not understand why anyone would see this as a reliable source.

 

[Fulcanelli]

I'm talking about the man who was fired for, get this, 'talking to the media.' That was Dr. Lalli, was it not? He thought any more than one attacker in that tiny room implausible, as should anyone who looks at it, and then realizes there's only evidence of one person other than Meredith there, Rudy Guede, and he's got bloody shoeprints, DNA evidence on the clothes, inside the victim, on the purse, as well as a bloody handprint.

Anything more than a one attacker scenario is akin to 'making water run uphill' in hopes of 'fingering a refreshing fee.'

No, you are confusing him with Torre, the expert for the defence. Lalli never claimed the room was too small for multiple attackers. Torre did.

There is evidence of the presence and participation of all three of the accused. It's all in the Micheli and Massei Reports.