Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #20

[js202]

Respectfully bolded by me.

Indeed, as this is a wholly hypothetical discussion anyway, there really is no true answer, just some fun back and forth.

One thing first: I should point out that it took the US base on Okinawa almost getting booted by the Japanese for those soldiers to stop being protected. Again, political motivations trump anything else (and some of those charges were dubious indeed, though most were solid). In addition, these problems didn't disappear after that point, they just fell out of the spotlight. I highly recommend delving into the Japanese/Okinawan/US relations with regards to the US military presence there, it's fascinating reading.


ETA: Oops, should have said that the base was threatened by the Japanese & Okinawans, especially the latter - the natives of that island consider themselves racially, socially & politically distinct from the Japanese, a position that I respect given their history.

Fair enough. Thanks. :loser:

 

[otto]

This is getting to one of the things that really bother me about this case. So much effort has been spent by the prosecution to create a dichotomy between Meredith and Amanda -- Meredith being a sainted and pure girl while Amanda is portayed as an evil *advertiser censored*. At the same time, nothing is said about either Raffaele or Rudy. Really. Rudy's DNA is found within Meredith, but he does not warrant the same kind of vilification Amanda does.

To me, this is another form of misogyny. It treats women as somehow lesser beings that don't have the nuance that men do -- they are only either 100% good or 100% evil.

And honestly, Amanda and Meredith seem to be very similar at the time of the murder. College age girls away from home. Both dating locals, both into partying -- both have been described by their friends in glowing terms.

Why is there such a movement to hide Meredith's partying and sexuality -- both of which I think are absolutely normal for a girl of her age -- while overemphasizing Amanda's?

I suppose that when it comes to criticizing the victim, it's best to align her with the murderess (Knox) rather than the murderers (Sollecito, Guede). It's quite a stretch to interpret this as misogyny. We know that Knox is a lying woman of questionable character convicted of murder. We cannot say these things about the victim, Meredith Kercher, as there is absolutely no evidence to support making such false statements. I truly thought that the victim should be left out of the criticism ... I mean, there are so many others to choose from ... but here we are, seeing remarks about the victim having the morals and character of a convicted murderer. Unbelievable!

 

[Allusonz]

Just don't be surprised if the Defense uses similar tactics. As I said, it's a very common strategy.

Don't mind me. I find it totally absurd what was presented, how things were presented, and that NOTHING is now the motive.

I have seen alot of antics in the courtroom. What amazes me is the lengths and time spent on evidence that is not there and which does not pertain to guilt.

Sorry I am still shaking my head over the entire process that has been allowed to happen in this case. If it were all not so disturbing I would be laughing but I can't as it taking place in real time

 

[Allusonz]

I def. think Amanda knows what happened that night........

But I don't get all of the odd behavior after the discovery of Meredith's body and during her trial, and why all the lying too?

I def. think Rudy is the main suspect and A & R helped cover it up.

What is more disturbing is the number of lies that PLE have been caught in

 

[otto]

Don't mind me. I find it totally absurd what was presented, how things were presented, and that NOTHING is now the motive.

I have seen alot of antics in the courtroom. What amazes me is the lengths and time spent on evidence that is not there and which does not pertain to guilt.

Sorry I am still shaking my head over the entire process that has been allowed to happen in this case. If it were all not so disturbing I would be laughing but I can't as it taking place in real time

Murder, without a self-serving motive beyond "for fun", is not new.

 

[Allusonz]

Murder, without a self-serving motive beyond "for fun", is not new.

The evidence pointing to this is?

 

[SMK]

I suppose that when it comes to criticizing the victim, it's best to align her with the murderess (Knox) rather than the murderers (Sollecito, Guede). It's quite a stretch to interpret this as misogyny. We know that Knox is a lying woman of questionable character convicted of murder. We cannot say these things about the victim, Meredith Kercher, as there is absolutely no evidence to support making such false statements. I truly thought that the victim should be left out of the criticism ... I mean, there are so many others to choose from ... but here we are, seeing remarks about the victim having the morals and character of a convicted murderer. Unbelievable!

I do not agree that it is unbelievable. The fact is, Mignini is trying to paint Knox as sexually/socially depraved (vibrator, condoms, pot) when all the girls engaged in smoking and sex. I think you are missing the point: That the juxtaposition is not a valid one. No one is trashing the victim or saying she had bad character. Only that she was living as most college girls do in the 21st century, Knox included. I agree with Nova that MK was sleeping with a drug dealer who knew Rudy, and with Monzoo that the bad girl/good girl dichotomy is a cheap and false one. These are simply facts......by the way, if a victim did have bad character, (which is NOT true in this case), say lied and did drugs, or was promiscuous, does that make it less a murder??

 

[otto]

The evidence pointing to this is?

Not sure what you're looking for here. Who knows why people like Scott Peterson, Knox, Sollecito and Guede give up their lives for murder. Perhaps one needs to be a murderer to understand their reasoning.

 

[Allusonz]

Not sure what you're looking for here. Who knows why people like Scott Peterson, Knox, Sollecito and Guede give up their lives for murder. Perhaps one needs to be a murderer to understand their reasoning.

The point I am making is that there have been so many motives presented starting with the satanic drug fueled sex orgy. The motive stated by the prosecution has changed more times than AK's statements. The motive presented in closing arguments was nothing.

 

[otto]

I do not agree that it is unbelievable. The fact is, Mignini is trying to paint Knox as sexually/socially depraved (vibrator, condoms, pot) when all the girls engaged in smoking and sex. I think you are missing the point: That the juxtaposition is not a valid one. No one is trashing the victim. I agree with Nova that MK was sleeping with a drug dealer who knew Rudy, and with Monzoo that the bad girl/good girl dichotomy is a cheap and false one. These are simply facts.

Knox is a lying woman convicted of murder. Why did Knox leave her vibrator lying around the shared bathroom? Why did Knox describe her recently deceased roommate as "she *advertiser censored***** bled to death"? Why did Knox hook up with several men when she claimed she had a boyfriend back home? Why did Knox accuse an innocent man of rape and murder? Who knows. According to her family, all the bizarre things Knox has done are because that's Knox being Knox. That is not Meredith, and to malign the victim in order to bolster the character of the convicted murderer is low. It reminds me of the arguments about the child murderer being an honest, upstanding guy when he was testifying (lying) in court as a defense witness. Some were so desperate to hang on to his lies they painted him with the brush of an impeccable character.

How is it not trashing the victim when comparing her to a murderer?

 

[SMK]

Knox is a lying woman convicted of murder. Why did Knox leave her vibrator lying around the shared bathroom? Why did Knox describe her recently deceased roommate as "she *advertiser censored***** bled to death"? Why did Knox hook up with several men when she claimed she had a boyfriend back home? Why did Knox accuse an innocent man of rape and murder? Who knows. According to her family, all the bizarre things Knox has done are because that's Knox being Knox. That is not Meredith, and to malign the victim in order to bolster the character of the convicted murderer is low. It reminds me of the arguments about the child murderer being an honest, upstanding guy when he was testifying (lying) in court as a defense witness. Some were so desperate to hang on to his lies they painted him with the brush of an impeccable character.

How is it not trashing the victim when comparing her to a murderer?

Because we are only comparing certain behaviors. I do not believe Knox is a murderer. I also believe saying "she f---ing bled to death" was an expression of the severity of the crime. I speak in such a manner when I feel those around me are being literal minded or white washing things. I simply do not see any indications that Knox is all you say she is. I still cannot understand why so many find her repulsive.

 

[SMK]

No, we are seeing non-critical remarks about MK being a real person, a normal woman of her age, and not some statue of a saint on a pedestal. All of the things that people trot out as examples of AK's 'questionable character' are shared by MK and a huge portion of women of that age, and aren't even objectionable to any except social conservatives and those with an axe to grind.

All of the examples that were made (parties, hangs out with drug dealers, having sex with a local, beloved by friends, etc) are documented facts, not false statements, and on top of that, the posters made clear that these traits are not immoral or being criticized. This knee jerk reaction addresses nothing in the previous posts, instead attempting to vilify the other posters by misrepresenting their posts. Bravo.

Seriously, I keep seeing these posts about how terrible AK is because she's 'an oversexed druggie', when in fact her sex life and drug usage has been demonstrated to be mild and shared by a large segment of her demographic as well as MK, while Guede (you know, the guy that is the only one proven to have sexually assaulted MK) has been practically rehabilitated and excused from culpability by the same posters, and RS has as usual been ignored. :sick:

The vilification of AK that originated with the Prosecution has at times reached lows rarely seen on Jerry Springer, so yeah, I'd say wondering about misogyny is called for - especially given that Italy is a socially conservative, paternalistic, Catholic nation with a very recent Judicial history of misogynistic rulings, particularly those against rape victims.

Unbelievable indeed.

You have addressed this far better than I. Good job.

 

[Allusonz]

Knox is a lying woman convicted of murder. Why did Knox leave her vibrator lying around the shared bathroom? Why did Knox describe her recently deceased roommate as "she *advertiser censored***** bled to death"? Why did Knox hook up with several men when she claimed she had a boyfriend back home? Why did Knox accuse an innocent man of rape and murder? Who knows. According to her family, all the bizarre things Knox has done are because that's Knox being Knox. That is not Meredith, and to malign the victim in order to bolster the character of the convicted murderer is low. It reminds me of the arguments about the child murderer being an honest, upstanding guy when he was testifying (lying) in court as a defense witness. Some were so desperate to hang on to his lies they painted him with the brush of an impeccable character.

How is it not trashing the victim when comparing her to a murderer?

I find it odd that in the video of the bathroom I did not see a bag with a toy vibrator and I must ask again what does owning a toy vibrator have to do with committing a murder? The truth is it has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Mignini though remains fixated on it

 

[SkewedView]

Knox is a lying woman convicted of murder. Why did Knox leave her vibrator lying around the shared bathroom? Why did Knox describe her recently deceased roommate as "she *advertiser censored***** bled to death"? Why did Knox hook up with several men when she claimed she had a boyfriend back home? Why did Knox accuse an innocent man of rape and murder? Who knows. According to her family, all the bizarre things Knox has done are because that's Knox being Knox. That is not Meredith, and to malign the victim in order to bolster the character of the convicted murderer is low. It reminds me of the arguments about the child murderer being an honest, upstanding guy when he was testifying (lying) in court as a defense witness. Some were so desperate to hang on to his lies they painted him with the brush of an impeccable character.

How is it not trashing the victim when comparing her to a murderer?

OMG, a vibrator! OMG, sex with men while away from home! What a *advertiser censored*! - seriously, you're going with that?

As for the bled to death thing - MK did bleed to death, and it was in response to someone saying something innocent but rather stupid. Under the same circumstances I'd have reacted in the same manner. Is that rude? Sure - but not unusual in a situation like that - not 'just Knox being Knox', but Knox being a real person.

There is only one logical explanation for what happened with PL, but you don't believe in false statements unless they are given by kids or the mentally handicapped (despite tons of cites given that say otherwise), so we'll just have to leave that one alone as a dead topic.

As for lies, well, to quote the great Dr. House: "everybody lies". Especially when they talk to cops, guilty or innocent. Again though, cites don't seem to be worth anything here either, so another dead topic we have.

At any rate, you once more totally mischaracterize other posters when you use the word 'Malign'. Unless of course you think that MK being a real woman who doesn't fit into the narrow confines of acceptable behavior according to social conservatives is 'maligning' her.

But hey, if you really feel this way, and aren't using this as a way to smear other posters, then why not just use that little alert button and let the mods decide?

 

[SMK]

I find it odd that in the video of the bathroom I did not see a bag with a toy vibrator and I must ask again what does owning a toy vibrator have to do with committing a murder? The truth is it has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Mignini though remains fixated on it

I agree: This being so common, why is it an indicator of depravity and murder in this case? @ Otto: You ask, "Why does Knox hook up with several men when she claimed to have a boyfriend at home?". Why did my sister Julie do the same? How does this indicate murder or intent to commit murder? I thought these kinds of "she-devil" arguments had died with feminism, but they seem to be making a comeback.

 

[Allusonz]

New blog from Dempsey

Amanda Knox prosecutor: Ignore science, demand life, think of wedddings

"In a festival of food references, illogic and misinformation, Comodi insisted that police forensic expert Patrizia Stefanoni, who lacks a doctorate in forensics, correctly identified crucial DNA traces. Two judge-appointed, independent Roman forensic experts with advanced degrees beg to disagree. They’ve declared her work “unreliable.” Not just “inconclusive,” but worthless, meaningless, out. Their 145-page report was scathing and meticulous. They found more than 50 errors in the sloppy police investigation. And that was before Stefanoni sparked laughter in court by admitting that she stored key evidence in the victim’s shared refrigerator and then sent it off to the Rome lab, not even accredited at the time."

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2011/09/25/amanda-knox-prosecutor-ignore-science-demand-life/

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Knox is a lying woman convicted of murder. Why did Knox leave her vibrator lying around the shared bathroom? Why did Knox describe her recently deceased roommate as "she *advertiser censored***** bled to death"? Why did Knox hook up with several men when she claimed she had a boyfriend back home? Why did Knox accuse an innocent man of rape and murder? Who knows. According to her family, all the bizarre things Knox has done are because that's Knox being Knox. That is not Meredith, and to malign the victim in order to bolster the character of the convicted murderer is low. It reminds me of the arguments about the child murderer being an honest, upstanding guy when he was testifying (lying) in court as a defense witness. Some were so desperate to hang on to his lies they painted him with the brush of an impeccable character.

How is it not trashing the victim when comparing her to a murderer?

otto,

The vibrator was a toy one, and it, the condoms, and toiletries were in a plastic bag below the sink, in a flat where storage space was at a premium (MiI, pp. 278-279). Knox slept with two men in Italy, Daniel and Raffaele. Two does not constitute several, and she and her Seattle boyfriend (DJ?) broken up, but she still had feelings for him. Do you have a citation for your claims about how the defense team described the witness you mentioned?

 

[Monzoo]

I suppose that when it comes to criticizing the victim, it's best to align her with the murderess (Knox) rather than the murderers (Sollecito, Guede). It's quite a stretch to interpret this as misogyny. We know that Knox is a lying woman of questionable character convicted of murder. We cannot say these things about the victim, Meredith Kercher, as there is absolutely no evidence to support making such false statements. I truly thought that the victim should be left out of the criticism ... I mean, there are so many others to choose from ... but here we are, seeing remarks about the victim having the morals and character of a convicted murderer. Unbelievable!

It sounds like we have different definitions of morality. I don't consider a young woman having sex (or smoking mj or drinking) to be anything but normal behavior. This is the 21st century, after all... Not the 19th.

I also disagree that AK is a proven liar. She is also not a convicted murder until after the Italian Supreme Court has had it's say in this case -- provided the conviction holds up.

 

[SMK]

New blog from Dempsey

Amanda Knox prosecutor: Ignore science, demand life, think of wedddings

"In a festival of food references, illogic and misinformation, Comodi insisted that police forensic expert Patrizia Stefanoni, who lacks a doctorate in forensics, correctly identified crucial DNA traces. Two judge-appointed, independent Roman forensic experts with advanced degrees beg to disagree. They’ve declared her work “unreliable.” Not just “inconclusive,” but worthless, meaningless, out. Their 145-page report was scathing and meticulous. They found more than 50 errors in the sloppy police investigation. And that was before Stefanoni sparked laughter in court by admitting that she stored key evidence in the victim’s shared refrigerator and then sent it off to the Rome lab, not even accredited at the time."

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2011/09/25/amanda-knox-prosecutor-ignore-science-demand-life/

from the same piece:

Comodi freely insulted the judge’s hand-picked experts, a risky and desperate strategy. Rather than cite any errors in technique, she resorted to name-calling. Their work was “embarrassing,” she claimed and they had failed their task, “betraying” the court.


Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini, convicted of abuse of office, nodded off through much of this rhetoric. The previous day, he had accused Amanda of “Nazism,” an insult to her German mother and grandmother. Without irony, he complained about a trial by media that he created and continues to feed via his numerous contacts with the press. He spoke of Amanda supporters as if they were foreign spies, amusing ex-FBI agent and vocal critic Steve Moore, who was in the stands, unbeknownst to the prosecutor.

I recall from Nina Burleigh's book that Mignini takes a lot of antihistamines and remedies for his allergies. Probably makes him doze off, but one would think he could have remained alert at this crucial trial moment.

 

[SMK]

OMG, a vibrator! OMG, sex with men while away from home! What a *advertiser censored*! - seriously, you're going with that?

As for the bled to death thing - MK did bleed to death, and it was in response to someone saying something innocent but rather stupid. Under the same circumstances I'd have reacted in the same manner. Is that rude? Sure - but not unusual in a situation like that - not 'just Knox being Knox', but Knox being a real person.My take exactly, "I hope Meredith did not suffer any pain?" seems a Pollyanna type silly thing to say, and Knox's response would have also been my own.--SMK

There is only one logical explanation for what happened with PL, but you don't believe in false statements unless they are given by kids or the mentally handicapped (despite tons of cites given that say otherwise), so we'll just have to leave that one alone as a dead topic.

As for lies, well, to quote the great Dr. House: "everybody lies". Especially when they talk to cops, guilty or innocent. Again though, cites don't seem to be worth anything here either, so another dead topic we have.

At any rate, you once more totally mischaracterize other posters when you use the word 'Malign'. Unless of course you think that MK being a real woman who doesn't fit into the narrow confines of acceptable behavior according to social conservatives is 'maligning' her.

But hey, if you really feel this way, and aren't using this as a way to smear other posters, then why not just use that little alert button and let the mods decide?

well said...see my bolded comment above....