Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #20

[otto]

Amanda's testimony indicates she was introduced to him once, may have seen him at Le Chic once, might have seen him around the neighborhood a few times. She also testified that a spinello was smoked there the night she was introduced to him, she did not testify that she smoked it with Rudy. If the prosecution thought they could prove she did drugs with the murderer, you'd think they'd have asked that straight out, they had the opportunity, not just try to use sleazy lawyer tricks to imply Amanda and Rudy had a closer relationship than they did.

CP: You know Rudy Hermann Guede?

AK: Not much.

CP: In what circumstances did you meet him?

AK: I was in the center, near the church. It was during an evening when I met
the guys that lived underneath in the apartment underneath us, and while I
was mingling with them, they introduced me to Rudy.

CP: So it was on the occasion of a party at the house of the neighbors
downstairs?

AK: Yes. What we did is, they introduced me to him downtown just to say
"This is Rudy, this is Amanda", and then I spent most of my time with Meredith,
but we all went back to the house together.

CP: Did you also know him, or at least see him, in the pub "Le Chic", Rudy?

AK: I think I saw him there once.

CP: Listen, this party at the neighbors, it took place in the second half of
October? What period, end of October? 2007?

AK: I think it was more in the middle of October.

CP: On the occasion of this party, Miss, was hashish smoked?

AK: There was a spinello that was smoked, yes.

CP: At that time, in October 2007, did you use drugs?

AK: Every once in a while with friends.

CP: Which substances were they?

AK: Marijuana.

...

http://perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?p=80193

 

[js202]

CP: You know Rudy Hermann Guede?

AK: Not much.

CP: In what circumstances did you meet him?

AK: I was in the center, near the church. It was during an evening when I met
the guys that lived underneath in the apartment underneath us, and while I
was mingling with them, they introduced me to Rudy.

CP: So it was on the occasion of a party at the house of the neighbors
downstairs?

AK: Yes. What we did is, they introduced me to him downtown just to say
"This is Rudy, this is Amanda", and then I spent most of my time with Meredith,
but we all went back to the house together.

CP: Did you also know him, or at least see him, in the pub "Le Chic", Rudy?

AK: I think I saw him there once.

CP: Listen, this party at the neighbors, it took place in the second half of
October? What period, end of October? 2007?

AK: I think it was more in the middle of October.

CP: On the occasion of this party, Miss, was hashish smoked?

AK: There was a spinello that was smoked, yes.

CP: At that time, in October 2007, did you use drugs?

AK: Every once in a while with friends.

CP: Which substances were they?

AK: Marijuana.

...

http://perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?p=80193

What does this exchange prove for you, otto? How is the net result of the information you've proffered materially different from what Kaosium posited?

It seems to me that Kaosium would agree with Knox's testimony here that she barely knew Rudy Guede and had otherwise seen him around once or twice. I myself am not particularly moved one way or the other that college-aged kids -- some of whom barely knew each other -- got together and smoked a joint.

Can you point to any phone or text exchanges between Rudy Guede and Amanda Knox? Between him and Raffaele Sollecito? What is your understanding of Guede's efficacy with the English language?

 

[Allusonz]

So ... he wants the small pot plants ... so rather than break into the downstairs flat to get the small pot plants, he scaled a wall a few times, broke a window in another flat, hoped to find a key for the place he really wanted to break into and then murdered Meredith instead.

Wouldn't it make an awful lot more sense for him to simply kick in the window in the downstairs flat, just like the police officer did, and break into the downstairs flat?

Those little plants would of sold for more than the rent thus I certainly would not underestimate there value. As for breaking into the lower apartment please note the bars along all of the lower portion. Another aspect to this is we don't know whether they were involved in the selling of other drugs

 

[otto]

Those little plants would of sold for more than the rent thus I certainly would not underestimate there value. As for breaking into the lower apartment please note the bars along all of the lower portion. Another aspect to this is we don't know whether they were involved in the selling of other drugs

Police had no problem breaking into the downstairs flat at about 4 in the afternoon the day Meredith's murder was discovered by police. They simply put a foot through the glass in the front door. The images were posted on this forum recently.

 

[Kaosium]

CP: You know Rudy Hermann Guede?

AK: Not much.

CP: In what circumstances did you meet him?

AK: I was in the center, near the church. It was during an evening when I met
the guys that lived underneath in the apartment underneath us, and while I
was mingling with them, they introduced me to Rudy.

CP: So it was on the occasion of a party at the house of the neighbors
downstairs?

AK: Yes. What we did is, they introduced me to him downtown just to say
"This is Rudy, this is Amanda", and then I spent most of my time with Meredith,
but we all went back to the house together.

CP: Did you also know him, or at least see him, in the pub "Le Chic", Rudy?

AK: I think I saw him there once.

CP: Listen, this party at the neighbors, it took place in the second half of
October? What period, end of October? 2007?

AK: I think it was more in the middle of October.

CP: On the occasion of this party, Miss, was hashish smoked?

AK: There was a spinello that was smoked, yes.

CP: At that time, in October 2007, did you use drugs?

AK: Every once in a while with friends.

CP: Which substances were they?

AK: Marijuana.

...

http://perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?p=80193

Precisely what I said, isn't it? Note there's another portion of her testimony in which she says she also saw him around a few times. In the space of a couple months, a brief introduction and her eyeballs crossed his path a few times. Again they don't ask her whether she smoked with Rudy, but whether a spinello is smoked at the same party that they met, in which she spent most her time with Meredith. Rudy might not have been with them, might have been doing something else at the party, he might not even have been there when it was smoked. If they wanted to establish that she smoked it with him they would have asked, this is just a roundabout way of implying it without asking.

 

[Sonata]

It is my belief that if AK and RG had been majorly socialising at this party, someone would have come forward about it to LE. People would have noticed.

 

[Sonata]

Has anyone seen Life in a Day? The move Ridley Scott made using people's youtube clips?

Well, some of the clips are from a Russian gangster who does the most amazing acrobatics to scale walls. I did not realise how easy it actually is for someone with that ability to overcome obstacles. It made me think of Guede and wonder if he knew how to do those kind of stunts.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Has anyone seen Life in a Day? The move Ridley Scott made using people's youtube clips?

Well, some of the clips are from a Russian gangster who does the most amazing acrobatics to scale walls. I did not realise how easy it actually is for someone with that ability to overcome obstacles. It made me think of Guede and wonder if he knew how to do those kind of stunts.

sonata,

Here are some clips of Phil Doyle and Kie Willis doing
[video=youtube;voB6WiP83NU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voB6WiP83NU[/video].
Check out how they scale a wall at 1:13. Admittedly, they are good at what they do.

 

[RoseMontague]

Those little plants would of sold for more than the rent thus I certainly would not underestimate there value. As for breaking into the lower apartment please note the bars along all of the lower portion. Another aspect to this is we don't know whether they were involved in the selling of other drugs

Those 5 little pot plants look pretty uninteresting to me, it's not exactly a major score. I don't think Rudy was interested in gardening, myself. The video of the downstairs apartment show nothing of any value.

 

[js202]

sonata,

Here are some clips of Phil Doyle and Kie Willis doing parkour. Check out how they scale a wall at 1:13. Admittedly, they are good at what they do.

This is all well and good, Chris, but can you prove that Rudy Guede watched this youtube video on or before November 1, 2007?

:crazy:

 

[RoseMontague]

Looking at the downstairs video I see a couple of cheap portable TV's, a boom box, a hot plate, a big bowl of knives on the sink, many and numerous spots of presumed blood substances on the window sill, bed, quilt, chair, floor, wall. I have no doubt that a Luminol test downstairs would have lit that place up like a Christmas tree on the 4th of July. A hammer and screwdriver on the kitchen table (hmmmm). Lots of dirty clothes, glass all over the kitchen floor.

 

[otto]

Precisely what I said, isn't it? Note there's another portion of her testimony in which she says she also saw him around a few times. In the space of a couple months, a brief introduction and her eyeballs crossed his path a few times. Again they don't ask her whether she smoked with Rudy, but whether a spinello is smoked at the same party that they met, in which she spent most her time with Meredith. Rudy might not have been with them, might have been doing something else at the party, he might not even have been there when it was smoked. If they wanted to establish that she smoked it with him they would have asked, this is just a roundabout way of implying it without asking.

Knox certainly tries to distance herself from Guede, but the facts remain that in the couple of weeks that she'd been in Perugia, Guede was one of the people that she'd met, knew, recognized and had socialized with at a small private party.

 

[otto]

Looking at the downstairs video I see a couple of cheap portable TV's, a boom box, a hot plate, a big bowl of knives on the sink, many and numerous spots of presumed blood substances on the window sill, bed, quilt, chair, floor, wall. I have no doubt that a Luminol test downstairs would have lit that place up like a Christmas tree on the 4th of July. A hammer and screwdriver on the kitchen table (hmmmm). Lots of dirty clothes, glass all over the kitchen floor.

Wasn't there also something about a cat with a bleeding ear?

 

[RoseMontague]

Wasn't there also something about a cat with a bleeding ear?

Yep. The point is there wasn't anything worth stealing in there that I could see and Rudy had been there on several occasions. Now in the upstairs flat there were two girls from other countries. Might be worth a look for Rudy.

 

[otto]

Yep. The point is there wasn't anything worth stealing in there that I could see and Rudy had been there on several occasions. Now in the upstairs flat there were two girls from other countries. Might be worth a look for Rudy.

I find that unlikely as well. He knew both Knox and Meredith and seemed to like them - why would he break into their place. They were students, meaning they probably had very little in belongings beyond clothes and books. If someone is going to take the trouble to break into a place, why not at the very least be sure that there's something worth stealing. Rent money being in the cottage on the night of Nov 1 was certainly a very big "if" regardless of whether the rent was due during business hours on Nov 1 or on the next business day. There was something to steal in Filomina's room (laptop, jewelery) and most likely also in Laura's room, but nothing was taken from those rooms. In fact, it seemed that the "burglar" was very considerate and didn't want to disturb the bedrooms of Knox and Laura.

The whole burglary thing falls through for me. If the point of entry was Filomina's bedroom, her jewelery should have been stolen (fits easily into a pocket). The laptop fits easily into a backpack. The laptop wasn't even taken out of the room - where an encounter with Meredith could have occurred. Instead, clothes were thrown on the floor ... as Filomina said "what a stupid burglar."

 

[Malkmus]

I find that unlikely as well. He knew both Knox and Meredith and seemed to like them - why would he break into their place.

For the same reason he would kill Meredith. Rudy has no morals.

They were students, meaning they probably had very little in belongings beyond clothes and books.

And laptops and jewelry as you pointed out below.

If someone is going to take the trouble to break into a place, why not at the very least be sure that there's something worth stealing.

When Rudy, or whoever, broke into Christian Tramantano's house he took the same items, credit cards.

Rent money being in the cottage on the night of Nov 1 was certainly a very big "if" regardless of whether the rent was due during business hours on Nov 1 or on the next business day. There was something to steal in Filomina's room (laptop, jewelery) and most likely also in Laura's room, but nothing was taken from those rooms. In fact, it seemed that the "burglar" was very considerate and didn't want to disturb the bedrooms of Knox and Laura.

Agree with you about the rent money.

However, I think the other rooms were untouched because he was caught before he could complete the task.

The whole burglary thing falls through for me. If the point of entry was Filomina's bedroom, her jewelery should have been stolen (fits easily into a pocket). The laptop fits easily into a backpack. The laptop wasn't even taken out of the room - where an encounter with Meredith could have occurred. Instead, clothes were thrown on the floor ... as Filomina said "what a stupid burglar."

He may not have found anything of interest right away, or was interrupted by the need to use the bathroom, or didn't go back in because Meredith caught him... really there's no way to say what he would have or should have done since it would have been interrupted prematurely.

I also don't see how Rudy stealing from her purse fits in to a plan involving Raffaele and Amanda - being that it was his DNA on her purse and not theirs.

 

[emyr]

However opening the outer shutters with a stick becomes difficult if they are wedged closed and you are standing at a distance from the shutters. I would also imagine there would have been a significantly sized stick lying around for the investigators to see.

Rudy would not have known how much time he had or did not have before Meredith returned. My point was he walked right by the laptop and did not even attempt to take it, yet he rifled through clothes in closets/cabinets. That just seems strange to me. If you think about him entering through the window, then what does he do next - start pulling clothes out of cabinets - then the upset stomach? It almost appears as if he knew exactly what he was looking for and it was something someone would hide in amongst clothes, which makes no sense. I cannot think of any narrative for that first 5-10 minutes that makes sense.

FH

If the other posters are right and Laura's room had one drawer open, that implies that he was looking for money and assumed it was likely to be in the top drawer of the wardrobe area. Just an assumption.

 

[emyr]

For the same reason he would kill Meredith. Rudy has no morals.



And laptops and jewelry as you pointed out below.



When Rudy, or whoever, broke into Christian Tramantano's house he took the same items, credit cards.



Agree with you about the rent money.

However, I think the other rooms were untouched because he was caught before he could complete the task.



He may not have found anything of interest right away, or was interrupted by the need to use the bathroom, or didn't go back in because Meredith caught him... really there's no way to say what he would have or should have done since it would have been interrupted prematurely.

I also don't see how Rudy stealing from her purse fits in to a plan involving Raffaele and Amanda - being that it was his DNA on her purse and not theirs.

Actually, this is a great point. Rudy killed Meredith and fled, leaving Amanda and Raffaelle to clean up the crime scene, yet Rudy's fingerprints are on Meredith's purse and all of her things in her purse are stolen. So Rudy killed Meredith, stole items from her purse, yet left behind other items like her cell phones so that Raffaelle and Amanda could stage the scene?

This kind of goes against the whole theory of "Rudy was invited over, things went wrong, they attacked as a group, RUdy freaked and fled, Amanda and Raffaelle cleaned up."

If Rudy was invited into the house, would he steal from Meredith's purse right in front of the other two? After committing a group murder in the heat-of-passion?

 

[Rolfe]

So much of the attempted explanations hinge on total imponderables. I've seen people insist that the break-in was staged because certain items weren't stolen - but if it was inevitable that such items would be stolen, anyone staging a break-in would have made a point of taking these things!

A burglary that goes wrong and escalates into a murder isn't going to play out by a script. A couple of slightly stoned students who stumble bit-by-bit on the scene of a horrible murder aren't going to stick to a predictable set of responses either. But so many people (starting with the Italian cops) are prepared to declare they are certain the students are vicious killers for no better reason than that their own preferred scripts weren't followed by the various parties.

It's really quite bizarre.

 

[Rolfe]

I posted in the thread that was pulled, about Stefanoni's changing stories regarding the negative controls for the PCR run on the knife sample. Obviously this is a crucial piece of evidence because the tests were run in a lab in which Meredith's DNA had been amplified many times, and what was said to have been found was a tiny amount. Actually, a tiny amount found after cranking up the sensitivity of the test beyond the manufacturer's recommendations (a process Stefanoni chose not to do for other pieces of evidence). And tested in a lab not equipped for LCN testing. So a clean negative control sample, run at the same sensitivity setting, was important. That's why the defence requested the data.

Stefanoni's responses are quite bizarre.

1. Initially, the defence were told that Stefanoni didn't document such trivialities. You might as well ask for a surgeon's written declaration that he washed his hands. So no such documentation exists.
   
2. When the defence insisted, the story changed. The documentation did exist after all, and it had actually been submitted to the court at the pre-trial stage. Hellman announced an adjournment to search for this documentation, but it could not be found. Apparently the documentation had NOT been submitted to the court.
   
3. At the very last moment before the recent recess, Stefanoni turned up in court clutching what she claimed was in fact the missing documentation. However, on inspection the dates and serial numbers on the blurry photocopies she presented did not match the test runs concerned. Oops.
   
4. Fourth time lucky. When the court re-convened after the recess, Stefanoni again came forward with documentation she claimed was NOW the correct negative controls. She had found it in the garage.

Please, does this woman think we all came up the Clyde on a banana boat? Are we really supposed to believe this? Consider. If one of the defendants had been asked to provide documentation vital to his or her case, and had then gone through a similar rigmarole before finally "finding" the material in the garage, would anyone be inclined to believe them? It makes "the dog ate my homework" sound eminently reasonable. Why is it OK when Stefanoni does it?