Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #20

[otto]

I wasn't dismissing the content of what she was saying, I was giving my honest impression of how her words come across in interviews. You also totally missed my point with regards to the leaving Italy thing - if we go just by how behavior might be interpreted, and make assumptions based on that, then everyone in this case (or just about any other case) comes off looking bad. She was the one essentially saying that AK is guilty because she didn't behave in a way that she approved of.


ETA: I'm still cranky for personal reasons. I'm going to disengage from debate from this post forward to avoid problems. Have a good night Otto.

I'm sure that Meredith's friends remained in Italy until police cleared them. I don't think that the friend is saying that she believes Knox is guilty because Meredith was uncomfortable with the vibrator.

"Natalie Hayward described how a series of incidents in the run-up to Miss Kercher's death have convinced her that Knox - sentenced to 26 years for the brutal murder - should not be freed as a result of the appeal now nearing its conclusion in an Italian court.

"Now 25, she cited Knox's strange behaviour and apparent inside knowledge of the details of the murder in the hours after it was revealed, as well as her false accusations against a local bar-owner, as reasons for her belief.

In addition, she said tensions between the two women, who shared a flat, had been building up for weeks.

Miss Kercher was "frustrated" with the University of Washington student's refusal to do her share of the cleaning, and felt uncomfortable that Knox kept a vibrator in a transparent wash bag in their shared bathroom. Relations were not improved by Knox's insistence on strumming her guitar all the time, Miss Hayward added.

...

Miss Hayward and the other British girls were suspicious that Knox seemed to have knowledge of the crime scene, despite police saying she had not seen inside the bedroom, where Miss Kercher lay in a pool of blood with her throat cut.

...

That in itself doesn't mean she's the culprit, but when you put it with everything else..."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...chers-friend-Perugia-can-be-a-dark-place.html

 

[js202]

True. And even fleeing to the US really quick wouldn't have helped with regards to avoiding charges, due to the solid US-Italian extradition treaty. The only thing that might have helped AK is if she had emulated her surviving roomies and lawyered up immediately.

BTW, I don't doubt that she was asked to stick around (SOP in these types of investigations), I just don't remember that specific call, and hope to see the specifics if it's not too much trouble.

There was no evidence against Amanda Knox.

I am certain that the American authorities would have paid attention to this if only she had entered the embassy in Berlin in time. I'm equally certain that, once she was back in the United States, subsequent negotiations to have her extradited on the basis of no evidence would have been a failure.

 

[SkewedView]

There was no evidence against Amanda Knox.

I am certain that the American authorities would have paid attention to this if only she had entered the embassy in Berlin in time. I'm equally certain that, once she was back in the United States, subsequent negotiations to have her extradited on the basis of no evidence would have been a failure.

The prosecution initially presented to their own courts enough 'evidence' for probable cause in the US (it's not exactly a hard goal to reach). That's enough to trigger the treaty, and AK is no Senator's son to warrant any efforts by the US State Dept. to protect her.

Seriously, the State Dept. is well known for leaving the average Joe out to dry, and contrary to conspiracy theories regarding the Knox/Mellas families' influence, AK is easily in the average Joe category.

Dang, there I go debating again. At least I managed to avoid any snarkiness, I think.

 

[Allusonz]

This sounds like he wasn't made aware of the fine until today...

Bet there never was one as his lawyer must not of been aware of it either. That little episode showed much and played out in front of a world wide audience. That "ill wind blowing" might start blowing stronger :innocent:

 

[Allusonz]

This kind of thing annoys me to no end. If the defendants did not commit the murder, how is admonishing the jury to recall Kercher helping to get justice???:maddening:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15034031

Annoys many SMK. What I can say is this. This case will be studied for many years and hopefully it will be used as a teaching tool of what should not be done.

 

[Allusonz]

Good point. Who brought it up?

The 450 euros fine? I believe it was in your post

 

[Allusonz]

Looking at this list, I can't help thinking that Mignini should enter the political arena after all of this - his tactics remind of those used in the last few US Presidential campaigns...

I was thinking more like behind bars. Although wishful thinking his appeal is comming up

 

[sherlockh]

Hellmann rejected the prosecution's request that the Supreme Court ruling have any pertinence in the case. I am missing what is unclear about that.

I also do not know how to make myself any clearer than what I wrote in my second paragraph. What the PMFers are hoping for is a pipe dream, and a misunderstanding of the legal system.

That is not true at all. He simply ruled that they weren't going to submit themselves to a precedent where the SC ruled on one aspect of the case. If they had allowed it then it would mean that they already confirm the SC ruling of multiple attackers. It is a bit too early for that, so quite understandably they rejected it. Saying the SC ruling has no relevance is not true since it is in evidence after all.

 

[Allusonz]

Okay, so this interview tells us nothing new. We already knew that MK's British friends took an immediate, catty dislike to AK, and then went on to mysteriously be the only people to witness the supposedly intense animosity betwixt MK & AK.

So I would, if given the opportunity, ask Miss Hayward: if we are to judge people by their how their behavior might be perceived, who was it that stayed in Italy to help out, and who was it that fled within days?



ETA: Sorry if I come across as catty myself...for some reason MK's Brit friends just rub me the wrong way.

The friends did leave as soon as they could as PLE had to call them back and surprise their statements were not quite the same as the first ones given.....not catty to me

 

[Allusonz]

Not only are all employees of the court, police, the victim's lawer and forensic lab incompetent, but the jury was biased, journalists with a specific viewpoint are biased or incompetent, the country is "anti-American" and now Meredith's friends are "catty" (did I miss anyone?). Next week, we'll hear criticisms of Patrick's lawyer since we already know that he has nothing good to say about Knox.

It is not difficult to consider that Knox rubbed Meredith and her friends the wrong way - it was a culture clash with aberrations.

Knox didn't stay to help out, she was ordered to remain in the country - from the recorded conversation she had with her aunt on Nov 3.

I believe this to be a misrepresentation of what SV posted. As well she still had her passport thus could of travelled. If PLE considered her to be a suspect how could they state that her first statement of the 5/6 was as a witness? Sounds like a contradiction to me

 

[Allusonz]

What do you trust more? The knowledge that Hellmann rejected the prosecution's request? Or Nadeau's tweeting of two apparently mutually exclusive things?

And the Supreme Court ruled that Guede's *trial and sentencing* were legal, they did not give their imprimatur to the lower court's finding that three parties were involved in the murder. As others have surely tried to point out to you, AK and RS cannot be incriminated by a trial in which they had no opportunity to defend themselves. I realize that you are baying for their conviction at all costs, but this would be an uncivilized travesty of justice. I doubt even courts in North Korea would allow such a thing.

BBM

Indeed there is a great difference and sometimes that thank you button is not enough

 

[Allusonz]

Culture Clash

@ ... upthread that Mignini mentioned the vibrator. The word alone means little. However, the fact that Meredith was uncomfortable with Knox's display of sexuality (vibrator, condoms in clear plastic container hung in the bathroom) was probably not a secret. Knox not pitching in at the cottage was also mentioned way back at the beginning.

The relevance/implication is threefold; Meredith was uncomfortabe with this immodest and crass display (tells us something about the victim), there was tension between them (goes to motive) and Italians, generally modest (like the victim), would identify with Meredith in this dispute: to leave your vibrator on display in a shared accommodation bathroom, or not. Knox probably knew that Meredith was uncomfortable with her habits. She was not respectful of Meredith. She also did not keep up her responsibilities of taking her turn to clean the bathroom. Knox confirmed that there was no blood on the bathroom faucet at 5 PM the night before, so it got there at the time of the murder. How did her blood get there during that time period again?

BBM

Such a point of contradiction to me. Upset over a toy vibrator yet borrows condoms

 

[Malkmus]

I'm sure that Meredith's friends remained in Italy until police cleared them. I don't think that the friend is saying that she believes Knox is guilty because Meredith was uncomfortable with the vibrator.

"Natalie Hayward described how a series of incidents in the run-up to Miss Kercher's death have convinced her that Knox - sentenced to 26 years for the brutal murder - should not be freed as a result of the appeal now nearing its conclusion in an Italian court.

"Now 25, she cited Knox's strange behaviour and apparent inside knowledge of the details of the murder in the hours after it was revealed, as well as her false accusations against a local bar-owner, as reasons for her belief.

In addition, she said tensions between the two women, who shared a flat, had been building up for weeks.

Miss Kercher was "frustrated" with the University of Washington student's refusal to do her share of the cleaning, and felt uncomfortable that Knox kept a vibrator in a transparent wash bag in their shared bathroom. Relations were not improved by Knox's insistence on strumming her guitar all the time, Miss Hayward added.

...

Miss Hayward and the other British girls were suspicious that Knox seemed to have knowledge of the crime scene, despite police saying she had not seen inside the bedroom, where Miss Kercher lay in a pool of blood with her throat cut.

...

That in itself doesn't mean she's the culprit, but when you put it with everything else..."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...chers-friend-Perugia-can-be-a-dark-place.html

Otto, I can cite other cases where relatives or close friends thought a suspect was guilty of a crime based on "suspicious behavior" that later tuned out to mean nothing when the actual culprit was found. It means very little in the long run.

Something I find curious though - if Meredith's friends thought Amanda knowing that Meredith "bled to death" was so suspicious, why on earth wouldn't their next question be "How do you know that?". It would be a natural, and easy question to ask.

Since you mention her testimony upthread, you probably know that she explains knowing this from everyone at the scene talking about it.

 

[Allusonz]

Dismissing the friends as catty and rubbing people the wrong way appears to be the same type of comment that is made about everyone associated with the case that speaks on behalf of the victim. Now the friends are criticized? No one associated with the victim is spared from criticism from prosecutor to students so traumatized by the murder that they discontinued their studies in Italy.

It is my opinion that there are more than one victim here. Two wrongs is not a basis for truth or justice

 

[otto]

The 450 euros fine? I believe it was in your post

Quite true. I responded to other posts about the topic.

 

[otto]

I believe this to be a misrepresentation of what SV posted. As well she still had her passport thus could of travelled. If PLE considered her to be a suspect how could they state that her first statement of the 5/6 was as a witness? Sounds like a contradiction to me

Knox was a witness, not a suspect. She was told to be available to police durig the early stages of the investigation per her police recorded phone call with her aunt. She did not stay in Italy to help police, as is often claimed.

 

[otto]

Otto, I can cite other cases where relatives or close friends thought a suspect was guilty of a crime based on "suspicious behavior" that later tuned out to mean nothing when the actual culprit was found. It means very little in the long run.

Something I find curious though - if Meredith's friends thought Amanda knowing that Meredith "bled to death" was so suspicious, why on earth wouldn't their next question be "How do you know that?". It would be a natural, and easy question to ask.

Since you mention her testimony upthread, you probably know that she explains knowing this from everyone at the scene talking about it.

The friend states that she was so traumatized immediately after the murder that she could not process what Knox was saying and doing, especially when Knox made remarks like "she *advertiser censored***** bled to death".

The friend did not say that Knox knew this from overhearing conversation in Italian (which we know Knox couldn't speak or understand at the time). It is a sentence in the article with the family offering an excuse for Knox knowing too much too soon: "Knox's family have said that she knew some of the details of the murder because they were openly discussed by people at the crime scene."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...chers-friend-Perugia-can-be-a-dark-place.html

 

[otto]

It is my opinion that there are more than one victim here. Two wrongs is not a basis for truth or justice

Patrick Lumumba and Meredith Kercher are two victim's of Knox and Sollecito's criminal activities so of course there is more than one victim. Most people don't believe that these two wrongs make a right, but some sure try to argue that two wrongs make a right ... two victims, therefore Knox must be innocent.

 

[ohiogirl]

Maybe Frank wants journalists to think that bloggers are victims too.

There is no thinking about it, he, as a blogger, is a victim.

 

[otto]

There is no thinking about it, he, as a blogger, is a victim.

What is he a victim of and what charges has he brought? What does his lawyer say?