Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #7

[Nova]

Do we have to read the minds of jurors now to find out if they glanced at a newspaper and should be disqualified for jury duty ... in case they lie and try to get on the jury even though they've made up their minds? Is that the objection here ... that in case the jury was filled with people lying about their objectivity, then the verdict would be wrong?

The case was international news when it happened because it involved people from England, the Ivory Coast, Italy and the United States ... it was big news not because the something the Italians were doing irresponsibly, but because it involved people from four different countries. This was not about the United States (anti-Americanism remarks) or Knox, it was about four people from four different countries getting together one night ... three of them stoned out of their heads, and the forth cramming for an exam.

To recap this vein of discussion:

Supporters of the verdict (including you) claimed that the jury decision should be given weight because the jury heard all the testimony. You further claimed that the ensuing cheering in the streets was proof that Perugians in general agreed with the verdict and that, too, made it more likely the verdicts were just.

Nobody is saying Italian jurors are specially incompetent. All we said was that jurors don't always base their decision on the evidence alone and public applause for a verdict may be a sign of social pressure, not accuracy.

As for four people "getting together one night," there is no evidence that that happened, except for three statements you refer to as "lies."

 

[Nova]

Occams Razor is that the straightest path is the correct path.

"Given two or more explanations, the simplest one is most likely to be true."

 

[otto]

You are still misquoting AK, as I pointed out quite carefully. Shall I assume you are doing so deliberately?

You should assume that when I post text from the trial testimony where Amanda says that she met Rudy a few times, that Knox is claiming that it was more than once. She definitely tried to downplay any connection with Rudy, but ultimately acknowledged that they had met in the club, in the square, and in the flat below where she lived and they smoked drugs together. The debate, earlier today, was whether they had met once, or more than once. According to testimony, it was more than once ... party, club, square introductions, drugs. Like I said, we can't put the words back into her mouth ... and I don't think she was being slapped around during the televised trial testimony.

 

[Nova]

I suspect that Amanda does not want to talk about her herpes, especially after her careless remarks and decisions the night she may have contracted the virus ... no wonder no one is happy sharing a cell with her - it's like a pox with an outbreak of facial sores now and then.

Maybe it's time we both step away from the computer. That post isn't worthy of you and it certainly isn't typical of you.

Lots of people have cold sores, including my husband and I, and Allusonz. My husband has had them since he was a child; I'm not going to apologize for kissing him. I suspect Allusonz has a similar story.

 

[otto]

"Given two or more explanations, the simplest one is most likely to be true."

So why suggest she ate dinner 3 or 4 times on one night, cooking on a water spilled floor, and that is why she gave several times for eating dinner?

 

[Nova]

You should assume that when I post text from the trial testimony where Amanda says that she met Rudy a few times, that Knox is claiming that it was more than once. She definitely tried to downplay any connection with Rudy, but ultimately acknowledged that they had met in the club, in the square, and in the flat below where she lived and they smoked drugs together. The debate, earlier today, was whether they had met once, or more than once. According to testimony, it was more than once ... party, club, square introductions, drugs. Like I said, we can't put the words back into her mouth ... and I don't think she was being slapped around during the televised trial testimony.

As I am now pointing out for the THIRD time, your own quotation does NOT show AK saying she "met" RG several times. She says she was introduced to him once and then "saw him around" a few times.

I've already explained that in American English, "meeting" someone and "seeing him around" are not the same thing.

No one is putting words in AK's mouth in this case but you.

 

[otto]

Maybe it's time we both step away from the computer. That post isn't worthy of you and it certainly isn't typical of you.

Lots of people have cold sores, including my husband and I, and Allusonz. My husband has had them since he was a child; I'm not going to apologize for kissing him. I suspect Allusonz has a similar story.

I apologize. I should be more sensitive ... but I'm not going to accept that Knox has a cold sore because she ate seafood that night. I believe that there is more to the story, and I know that former cellmates were not happy with sharing a cell with Knox - although they were nice to her when the verdict was guilty.

 

[Allusonz]

Maybe it's time we both step away from the computer. That post isn't worthy of you and it certainly isn't typical of you.

Lots of people have cold sores, including my husband and I, and Allusonz. My husband has had them since he was a child; I'm not going to apologize for kissing him. I suspect Allusonz has a similar story.

as well as watch a young cancer patient that just about died from this

 

[Nova]

Wow ... you're yelling.

Yes. I'm frustrated.

And ... the third voluntary "gift" statement?

She was "quantifying and negating" ... something like that ... but wasn't prepared to make a statement that she was full of rubbish and lied when she implicated Patrick? Neither she nor her mother were prepared to tell authorities that Amanda lied about Patrick murdering Meredith? When Edda was questioned about why she didn't report this obviously very important information, her explanation was that no one spoke English in Perugia.

Yes, you've posted that at least 12 times in the few weeks I've been following these threads. We all agree. AK should not have succumbed to the pressure to accuse PL in the first place. Having done so, however, she should have come clean and admitted the truth. But doing so was worth at least a year in Italian prison and AK didn't have the guts to confess to perjury.

Not admirable. Not surprising either.

 

[otto]

As I am now pointing out for the THIRD time, your own quotation does NOT show AK saying she "met" RG several times. She says she was introduced to him once and then "saw him around" a few times.

I've already explained that in American English, "meeting" someone and "seeing him around" are not the same thing.

No one is putting words in AK's mouth in this case but you.

Okay ... so they only met once.

Let's leave it at that.

 

[Nova]

I apologize. I should be more sensitive ... but I'm not going to accept that Knox has a cold sore because she ate seafood that night. I believe that there is more to the story, and I know that former cellmates were not happy with sharing a cell with Knox - although they were nice to her when the verdict was guilty.

Fair enough. I don't know what all you think happened between AK and the boy downstairs, but I fail to see what it has to do with the crime.

Unless things are as they appear: people who believe AK to be guilty do so because they blame her for being (in their minds) a *advertiser censored*.

 

[otto]

Yes. I'm frustrated.



Yes, you've posted that at least 12 times in the few weeks I've been following these threads. We all agree. AK should not have succumbed to the pressure to accuse PL in the first place. Having done so, however, she should have come clean and admitted the truth. But doing so was worth at least a year in Italian prison and AK didn't have the guts to confess to perjury.

Not admirable. Not surprising either.

And I maintain that there was no pressure, merely an attempt by Amanda to obfuscate the truth ... thus the lie about 14 hours.

Not admirable, and not someone you would want befriending your teenager.

 

[Nova]

Okay ... so they only met once.

Let's leave it at that.

They met and then she saw him around a few times. That's her testimony. We don't know whether they spoke, nodded across a crowded room, ignored one another or what.

But you are right that it was more than the one meeting. And I am right that it was less than several meetings. At least per the testimony we have.

 

[Nova]

And I maintain that there was no pressure, merely an attempt by Amanda to obfuscate the truth ... thus the lie about 14 hours.

Not admirable, and not someone you would want befriending your teenager.

I'm signing off for the night, so you have time to think about this one.

I've asked you several times without getting an answer. If there was no pressure, why did AK accuse PL in the first place? It was a tactic almost certain to backfire, as it did.

Yet in accusing PL, AK put herself at the scene. And gained what? She had passed several days by just saying she'd been at RS' and didn't know what happened to MK.

 

[otto]

Fair enough. I don't know what all you think happened between AK and the boy downstairs, but I fail to see what it has to do with the crime.

Unless things are as they appear: people who believe AK to be guilty do so because they blame her for being (in their minds) a *advertiser censored*.

I only brought it up to demonstrate that Knox made fast friends ... carelessly ... they they all had drugs in common.

There is not one piece of evidence that tipped the scales of justice for Knox, it was the totality of circumtantial and forensic evidence. Amanda was a bit loose, but that has nothing to do with the conviction. I suppose this speaks to character ... and her fast friends ... and the fact that she had known Rudy longer than Raffaele in the 2-3 weeks she had been in Perugia ... so it doesn't really work claiming that they met once or that she was any closer to one or another of her drug buddies.

 

[otto]

I'm signing off for the night, so you have time to think about this one.

I've asked you several times without getting an answer. If there was no pressure, why did AK accuse PL in the first place? It was a tactic almost certain to backfire, as it did.

Yet in accusing PL, AK put herself at the scene. And gained what? She had passed several days by just saying she'd been at RS' and didn't know what happened to MK.

Laura's friend referred Amanda for the job at Patrick's Club: La Chic. Knox got the job as a server, but in no time Patrick found that she spent more time flirting with the customers than doing the job. He spoke with her, but it continued to be a problem. Meredith came in one night when Knox was there and asked about a drink. Patrick didn't know about the drink, so Meredith started mixing drinks ... mojitos or something ... and that night Meredith was offered a job, and Knox as dismissed with the option of handing out flyers on the street. Why did Knox accuse Patrick? Knox could have been upset about losing her job. She has done some odd things (I hope this is understood by now) and it is possible that she was angry with Meredith because of this change in job status. From there, anything is possible. Knox is known to be impulsive and not consider the long term possibilities, she by no means had enough money to complete her year long studies in Italy, and she doesn't seem to be embarrassed by anything. Why did she accuse Patrick ... most likely he was the only person she knew in Italy besides her professors and the out of town housemates ... who were probably all very thankful that they didn't text Knox and she left them sitting in jail for two weeks too.

 

[otto]

To recap this vein of discussion:

Supporters of the verdict (including you) claimed that the jury decision should be given weight because the jury heard all the testimony. You further claimed that the ensuing cheering in the streets was proof that Perugians in general agreed with the verdict and that, too, made it more likely the verdicts were just.

Nobody is saying Italian jurors are specially incompetent. All we said was that jurors don't always base their decision on the evidence alone and public applause for a verdict may be a sign of social pressure, not accuracy.

As for four people "getting together one night," there is no evidence that that happened, except for three statements you refer to as "lies."

People are not that complicated. If they are eagerly waiting in the streets to hear the verdict, and a cheering roar consumes the town when the verdict is read, then I'm ready to conclude that the general population agrees with the verdict. If, in a democratic society, the majority agree, then that is how it is.

This point was raised in relation to whether the prosecutor should be considered a fool ... is the oj prosecutor considered a fool ... and is there any reason to believe that the verdict was not unanimous into the streets? And what does it have to do with a sensational dream team trial paid for and delivered in the United States ... different legal system.

Knox claimed that she was afraid of the man from the Congo, that he was obsessed with Meredith, that she let him into her cottage, and that he assaulted and murdered her roommate. That's pretty crazy since she said this after 2 hours, one of which was without an interpreter.

 

[claudicici]

I do believe her anger towards Patrick has a lot more to do with her accusing him of this crime than pressure from the police.
If she was so angry that she would implicate him in this crime and watch him get arrested I'm sure she was equally angry at Meredith.
I'm still completely on the fence.
Where can I read the trial transcripts?

 

[otto]

I do believe her anger towards Patrick has a lot more to do with her accusing him of this crime than pressure from the police.
If she was so angry that she would implicate him in this crime and watch him get arrested I'm sure she was equally angry at Meredith.
I'm still completely on the fence.
Where can I read the trial transcripts?

That is the question ... there was a growing falling out between Knox and Meredith where Knox phoned Meredith several times on Halloween evening and Knox was never invited to join Meredith with friends at a couple of parties. Amanda and Raffalle did nothing on Halloween night when there were parties all over town. There is reason to believe that Knox was upset with Meredith, stemming from losing her job, aggravated by being shut out, and looking for some payback. Knox was, after all, able to attract any man and could do as she pleased (even in Berlin) ... according to Knox.

Knox trial testimony can be found here: http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=165

The Judge's report, explaning the verdict, is 427 pages and can be found here: http://www.westseattleherald.com/si...ttachments/MasseiReportEnglishTranslation.pdf

and is linked here: http://www.westseattleherald.com/2010/08/10/news/amanda-knox-motivation-document-first-english-tra

There are additional translated documents that preceed the verdict ... available as well.

 

[Malkmus]

That is the question ... there was a growing falling out between Knox and Meredith where Knox phoned Meredith several times on Halloween evening and Knox was never invited to join Meredith with friends at a couple of parties. Amanda and Raffalle did nothing on Halloween night when there were parties all over town. There is reason to believe that Knox was upset with Meredith, stemming from losing her job, aggravated by being shut out, and looking for some payback. Knox was, after all, able to attract any man and could do as she pleased (even in Berlin) ... according to Knox.

Knox trial testimony can be found here: http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=165

The Judge's report, explaning the verdict, is 427 pages and can be found here: http://www.westseattleherald.com/si...ttachments/MasseiReportEnglishTranslation.pdf

and is linked here: http://www.westseattleherald.com/2010/08/10/news/amanda-knox-motivation-document-first-english-tra

There are additional translated documents that preceed the verdict ... available as well.

Amanda was never fired from her job. This is another rumor started by a tabloid interview with Patrick, though the "firing" is never even quoted by him. The truth is Amanda talked to Patrick in the square the morning of November 5th where she asked if she could stop working nights because she was afraid of walking around by herself at night since there was a killer on the loose. This is in the trial testimony and letters home to family. If she had been fired it certainly would have been addressed by the prosecutor when asking about her work relationship with Patrick. It's also negated by the text message from him where he tells her it's not busy enough for her to come in, which would make no sense to send if she was no longer working for him. Patrick had talked to Meredith about working on Thursdays which was ladies night.