Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox Conviction Overturned #22

[emyr]

It doesn't mean that the newspaper is mistaken, it means that Sollecito lied about a phone call and that there were inconsistencies in his story regarding the night of the murder. It appears that the newspaper is not going to forget the facts too quickly.

Let's look at the statement:

"Raffaele's statement to prosecutors that he had spoken to his father the night Kercher was killed raised suspicion, as phone records showed no trace of the call."

Phone records showed no trace of the call. It doesn't say that Sollecito didn't call his father that particular night, it says that there was no trace of the call that Sollecito alluded to.

This statement reminds people that there were inconsistencies in Sollecito's statement as well:

"... inconsistencies in his statements about spending the night of the murder watching a video, cooking and making love with Knox in his apartment"

Seriously otto, normally I get your point, but I don't get it at all here. Sollecito did call his father that night, and phone records in fact proved it. All you are showing us here is that the newspaper is doing a bad job by doing a rush job and reporting on things they had no business reporting on (until the clear evidence was known).

 

[otto]

MK was only murdered once.

It appears that some want to murder/ruin AK and RS overAndoverAndoverAndover again. As if being incarcerated for crimes they did not commit (and were not proved) wasn't bad enough.

When the fixation is on a stranger--someone unknown except for a portrayal in the media, it suggests a lot about the obsessed one and highlights some of their issues, to put it mildly.

I can understand despising someone who we know, who may have personally hurt someone we love or even someone in our family, but this level of obsession of a stranger, in which imagined traits are imbued on them....well....I see why personal security teams are necessary.

What do you mean by "Meredith was only murdered once" (it's okay to write out her full name rather than initials, by the way ... she's the victim)? Do you mean to downplay the more than 40 injuries?

I agree that obsession with Knox is over the top stupid. All sorts of things are happening around the world, like the collapse of the financial markets, but many eyes are on Knox - the woman that was convicted of murder and released on appeal due to a techinicality: the LNC DNA from the knife was not retested.

 

[otto]

No, they tested the knife, and the machine read-out said "NO DNA." The prosecution complained that they did not continue testing in spite of the fact that the machine read NO DNA. That they didn't blow up the sample as much as absolutely possible to see if they could get a reading anyway.

Also, since Stefanoni stated she used up her entire sample and it was next to miniscule, one would think there would be nothing left. Regardless.

"blow up the sample" ... interesting perspective. When a sample of something is found at a crime scene it can be analyzed. During the first reading for DNA, the sample can be weak and require further zooming or cycling. Additional cycling can lead to a DNA reading, although it must be identified as LNC DNA.

As LNC DNA, it can only be used for comparison to a known sample or as an exclusionary tool, not an identifying tool. The DNA sample on the knife could not exclude Meredith Kercher according to the academics and was a match according to the state.

Low count number DNA is widely accepted in Europe, where it was first developed. It was used as an argument during the Casey Anthony trial - because it wasn't done.

Should all research into DNA analysis be parallized and stop in it's tracks because at a certain point there is too much skepticism? That hasn't yet been established, and tests so far (zoomed and recycling to detect lower levels of DNA) have been accepted internationally,

 

[otto]

Seriously otto, normally I get your point, but I don't get it at all here. Sollecito did call his father that night, and phone records in fact proved it. All you are showing us here is that the newspaper is doing a bad job by doing a rush job and reporting on things they had no business reporting on (until the clear evidence was known).

The article states that Sollecito had inconsistences in his statements. From the article, I understood that there was a problem with a particular phone call that Sollecito claims to have had with his father.


What does this mean: "All you are showing us here is that the newspaper is doing a bad job by doing a rush job and reporting on things they had no business reporting on (until the clear evidence was known)" ?

 

[Malkmus]

I'll look for it ... but I doubt it will make any difference to anyone that believes the academics were objective.

http://www.namir.it/vittime/ghira10.htm

Andrea Ghira - Wikipedia

I'm sorry, Otto, but you have been misled, like so many others, by the fantasies of yet another conspiracy theory. You'll see right on wiki page you linked, that the man whom the DNA tests were performed on died in 1994. 11 years later a prosecutor, not believing he was dead, had the body exhumed (sounds an awful like Mignini's Monster of Florence exhumation doesn't it) to see if it really was the same person. Vecchiotti performed the tests, concluded that it was the same man. Yes, she was removed from the case for knowing the aunt of the dead man. But her DNA analysis was never dis-proven.

If a conspiracy theory is all there is against Vecchiotti then I'm afraid that isn't much of anything. Not only that, but what has it got to do with the murder of Meredith Kercher? Nothing. No one has criticized Stefanoni on the work she did previous to this. And her mistakes in this case have been numerous and documented. What I find ironic, is that you were the one who chastised us for criticizing Stefanoni's work in the first place, saying you were above discrediting the scientists in this case. And now look...

And before you start bringing up the reasons the conspiracy theory against Andrea Ghira exist, let me note that they are as credible as the ones proving Bigfoot exists. Photos have popped up every now and then alleged to be him.

But since you brought it up, I went to PMF to understand it a bit more and the only thing over there regarding it was this post from Popper:

Stefanoni, Torricelli and the others knew Vecchiotti ... if they thought they were not ok they should have said immediately not at the end (art 223 third comma you do not want an expert you ask, should say before)

Torricelli and Stefanoni should have said immediately to C+V they should analyse the small sample with new technology. C+V said we cannot analyse 5 picograms. If you have observation you make them. Tagliabracci for example said something. Stefanoni and Torricelli were close to me and said nothing. Now they want integration, too easy.

Since they said so much on Vecchiotti I went on internet and Vecchiotti takes care of very particular cases of DNA. Cristina Capoccini homicide, investigated father and son with the same Y, Vecchiotti analysed mytochondrial DNA, then Andrea Ghira with one of the murderer of Circeo
[POPPER: actually in this case she was then excluded as connected party as she knew an aunt of Ghira].

Dr Intini the boss of Stefanoni organized this. She mentions other cases to improve the rep of Vecchiotti.

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=420&p=102253&hilit=Ghira#p102253

 

[Malkmus]

<snip>

It's media hype. In most places on earth, 24 and 27 years old is not a kid. Many people of 24 or 27 have real lives, where they have degrees, careers, live independently and even have families of their own.

I'll take the juror's use of the word to mean it's okay to do so. BTW, it wouldn't be out of place to characterize Amanda and Raf's lives as being stunted at an early age due to incarceration. Perhaps now they can rightfully start lives as adults.

 

[Malkmus]

The knife that delivered the fatal blow was the larger of the two knives. Meredith Kercher had over 40 injuries, none self-defensive. There were 3 superficial cut on her hands, but none were deep enough to be considered defensive. Two knives were used.

The larger knife, found in Sollecito's apartment, was connected with Knox through the handle. Substance, found on the blade, was identified by forensic analysts as belonging to Meredith. When it was sent for verification by the academics, the academics stated that because it was LNCDNA, they would not test it. The lab had the equipment to test it, better equipment than the state forensic lab. It would have settled the question of whether the substance could be connected to Meredith. Experts chose not to test the material, instead focusing on starch near the handle. Prosecution requests to have the material tested were denied, and will probably be put forward with the Supreme Court - if it goes that far. A request has to be made after the filing of the motivations report. I suspect the prosecutions appeal will be filed within a day.

The academics did not dispute that the DNA chart reading for the knife blade LNC DNA was consistent with Meredith's DNA. They were unable to explain how contamination could have occurred on the knife.

Admittedly there was contamination on the clasp - corroded as a result of using US specified bagging techniques.

Otto, I'm afraid the double DNA knife is no longer a valid form of evidence. It was discredited first by the defense, then the independent experts, and finally a judge and ten lay judges. It simply is no longer in the equation.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

Knox, by her own statements, admits that she can't distinguish between dream, imagination and reality. If she claims that she was ill treated in prison, one has to seriously questions whether she is again falsely accusing innocent people, imagining, dreaming, confused, or simply unable to focus on rebuilding her life.

I think everyone should be very wary of accepting anything that Knox says at face value in view of the fact that she accused Patrick of rape and murder, knew that he was innocent for two weeks and chose to keep it a secret ... left him to rot in jail. She could leave anyone to rot in jail, based on her lies, and do nothing to help. I think she's going to need more than another tall tale about sexual harassment from prison officials while incarcerated for sexual murder.

Why didn't she choose Rudy to rot in jail? Did they find some juicy emails and texts between Knox and Rudy? You think they were planning to elope once they both fled Italy? Witchcraft involved probably, eh?

 

[otto]

I'm sorry, Otto, but you have been misled, like so many others, by the fantasies of yet another conspiracy theory. You'll see right on wiki page you linked, that the man whom the DNA tests were performed on died in 1994. 11 years later a prosecutor, not believing he was dead, had the body exhumed (sounds an awful like Mignini's Monster of Florence exhumation doesn't it) to see if it really was the same person. Vecchiotti performed the tests, concluded that it was the same man. Yes, she was removed from the case for knowing the aunt of the dead man. But her DNA analysis was never dis-proven.

If a conspiracy theory is all there is against Vecchiotti then I'm afraid that isn't much of anything. Not only that, but what has it got to do with the murder of Meredith Kercher? Nothing. No one has criticized Stefanoni on the work she did previous to this. And her mistakes in this case have been numerous and documented. What I find ironic, is that you were the one who chastised us for criticizing Stefanoni's work in the first place, saying you were above discrediting the scientists in this case. And now look...

And before you start bringing up the reasons the conspiracy theory against Andrea Ghira exist, let me note that they are as credible as the ones proving Bigfoot exists. Photos have popped up every now and then alleged to be him.

But since you brought it up, I went to PMF to understand it a bit more and the only thing over there regarding it was this post from Popper:



http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=420&p=102253&hilit=Ghira#p102253

Were there more than six cases that the Rome academics were involved with, or should we be aware of the expert's shortcoming? Apparently the prosecuors thought so and that particular document was excluded from the proceedings. This has left a shroud of doubt on not only the academics but the Judge - with many people eager to read his legal reasonings. This case could be punted back to appeal court, or an appeal could be denied ... hard to say which way it will go.

 

[otto]

I'll take the juror's use of the word to mean it's okay to do so. BTW, it wouldn't be out of place to characterize Amanda and Raf's lives as being stunted at an early age due to incarceration. Perhaps now they can rightfully start lives as adults.

I think the Anthony trial also perceived her as a kid.

Funny how that happens ... the assumption that young women cannot commit murder.

By all means ... as soon as the convicted; released on appeal, murderers perceive themselves as adults they can be treated same. The "kid" stuff is about 8 years too old and CNN should be advised to stop up the soccer knox shots.

 

[otto]

Why didn't she choose Rudy to rot in jail? Did they find some juicy emails and texts between Knox and Rudy? You think they were planning to elope once they both fled Italy? Witchcraft involved probably, eh?

"Why didn't she choose Rudy to rot in jail?"

Partners in crime don't always tell on each other.

 

[Malkmus]

Were there more than six cases that the Rome academics were involved with, or should we be aware of the expert's shortcoming?

I don't know, Otto, were there more than 6? It was your claim. Why don't you post her credentials and we can determine if the court possibly made a grave error in hiring her.

Apparently the prosecuors thought so and that particular document was excluded from the proceedings. This has left a shroud of doubt on not only the academics but the Judge - with many people eager to read his legal reasonings. This case could be punted back to appeal court, or an appeal could be denied ... hard to say which way it will go.

What document? The one falsified document they tried to pass off as the controls done on the knife DNA that made a mockery of the court? Or the one they tried to slip in without telling anyone at the 11th hour?

 

[Malkmus]

I think the Anthony trial also perceived her as a kid.

You think? Or was she? I think she wasn't, probably because she was a mother.

Funny how that happens ... the assumption that young women cannot commit murder.

Is that your assumption? Because no one here ever said this.

By all means ... as soon as the convicted; released on appeal, murderers perceive themselves as adults they can be treated same. The "kid" stuff is about 8 years too old and CNN should be advised to stop up the soccer knox shots.

:waitasec:

 

[SMK]

Re: Allegations of Sexual Harassment in Prison

Is Knox confused between reality, imaginings and dream again?

"CBS reported that Amanda Knox said a high-ranking prison administrator in Italy was "fixated on the topic of sex" when he was in her presence and that he wanted to know "with whom I've done it, how I liked it,' and 'if I would do it with him."

But this isn't the first time Amanda Knox has made allegations against a man. In fact, twice before Amanda Knox has made allegations with one already proven false and landing her in financial and judicial hot water.

Knox falsely accused Patrick Lumumba in 2007 of killing Meredith Kercher, claiming as he killed Meredith she was in the kitchen of the shared residence, covering her ears to Meredith's screams. Lumumba was exonerated of any wrongdoing in the case, released two weeks after being picked up and jailed due to Knox's allegations against him."

...

Recently, during her acquittal trial, the jury in that case deemed Knox should have been given a three year additional sentence for the false allegation against an innocent man, according to the Sydney Morning Herald. If Knox had not already served four years at the time of her acquittal, she would have been made to serve out that additional sentence before she could be released.

...

It is also concerning that the girl who some believe may have gotten away with murder is continuing to focus on making allegations rather than trying to move foward with her life and, as in the words of her father, devoting herself to helping others."

http://www.examiner.com/criminal-pr...s-of-sexual-harassment-more-false-allegations

Nevertheless, I believe Knox was likely sexually harassed in prison.

 

[SMK]

"Why didn't she choose Rudy to rot in jail?"

Partners in crime don't always tell on each other.

Go and read about 50 true crime novels, as I once stupidly did when I was unemployed. Believe me, partners in crime rat eachother out, ALL the time. ALL the time....

 

[Nova]

Knox, by her own statements, admits that she can't distinguish between dream, imagination and reality. If she claims that she was ill treated in prison, one has to seriously questions whether she is again falsely accusing innocent people, imagining, dreaming, confused, or simply unable to focus on rebuilding her life.

I think everyone should be very wary of accepting anything that Knox says at face value in view of the fact that she accused Patrick of rape and murder, knew that he was innocent for two weeks and chose to keep it a secret ... left him to rot in jail. She could leave anyone to rot in jail, based on her lies, and do nothing to help. I think she's going to need more than another tall tale about sexual harassment from prison officials while incarcerated for sexual murder.

Your first paragraph above is so obviously wrong it is hard not to conclude the deceit is deliberate. AK made those statements about her confusion under the pressure of four days of tag team interrogation; she didn't say she has an ongoing problem distinguishing fantasy from reality.

I think Knox' account of the alleged sexual harassment in prison is quite believable because (a) she reported it at or around the time it occurred in letters to a correspondent; and (b) it is consistent with treatment we know occurs in prisons everywhere.

Her remarks about PL were concessions to allegations by interrogators. Under unbearable pressure, she told her interrogators what she thought they wanted to hear. She and I wish she had not done so, but "breaking" under pressure isn't uncommon; in fact it is the goal of interrogation. There is nothing about her account of the prison administrator asking about her sex life that is remotely similar.

 

[Nova]

It doesn't mean that the newspaper is mistaken, it means that Sollecito lied about a phone call and that there were inconsistencies in his story regarding the night of the murder. It appears that the newspaper is not going to forget the facts too quickly.

Let's look at the statement:

"Raffaele's statement to prosecutors that he had spoken to his father the night Kercher was killed raised suspicion, as phone records showed no trace of the call."

Phone records showed no trace of the call. It doesn't say that Sollecito didn't call his father that particular night, it says that there was no trace of the call that Sollecito alluded to.

This statement reminds people that there were inconsistencies in Sollecito's statement as well:

"... inconsistencies in his statements about spending the night of the murder watching a video, cooking and making love with Knox in his apartment"

Nice try, but there's nothing in the paper's account here that mentions more than one call.

You yourself referred repeatedly to Sr. Sollecito's phone call to RS and how the father testified that RS mentioned the spill. This was offered by you and by Massei as proof that AK and RS ate dinner earlier than AK remembered.

Are you now saying the Guardian has proven you (and the Motivation Report) to be mistaken? Because, frankly, it isn't like you to admit mistakes.

 

[Nova]

Calling a 27 year old man a "kid" is not exaggerated?

Sollecito is certainly scrawny like a kid, but he's a full grown man with no life and a very questionable history.

Not if the speaker is much older. My husband and I still refer to our son and daughter as the "kids"--and the younger one turned 40 yesterday. In the musical theater, members of the ensemble are often called "kids" regardless of their chronological age. "Kid" is simply a word that is often used relatively.

As for the Younger Sollecito, he was a student until he was falsely accused of murder. Then he spent four years in prison and was only released last week.

Sneering that he "has no life" reflects poorly on the writer and not at all on RS.

 

[SMK]

I think the Anthony trial also perceived her as a kid.

Funny how that happens ... the assumption that young women cannot commit murder.

By all means ... as soon as the convicted; released on appeal, murderers perceive themselves as adults they can be treated same. The "kid" stuff is about 8 years too old and CNN should be advised to stop up the soccer knox shots.

Whether kid or adult, Hellman says the evidence just isn't there. Whether one assumes young women can commit murder (I know they can) or not, the evidence wasn't there for this person, Knox. That's all that really matters with a murder charge. The rest is silence....

 

[emyr]

The article states that Sollecito had inconsistences in his statements. From the article, I understood that there was a problem with a particular phone call that Sollecito claims to have had with his father.


What does this mean: "All you are showing us here is that the newspaper is doing a bad job by doing a rush job and reporting on things they had no business reporting on (until the clear evidence was known)" ?

It's like a newspaper article reporting that "Otto had inconsistencies in his statement. He stated he wrote on websleuths, but there are no internet records that show he ever wrote there." Either the reporter hasn't bothered to do the actual research, or he is parroting information from someone who is misinformed. Or the records weren't searched yet. (But I see I was incorrect in assuming this was an old article, one published when it wasn't known that the phone call had in fact taken place).

The kindest scenario is one where he meant to say something like, "Otto said he wrote on websleuths at 1.am. on October 15th, but it shows he wrote there at 11pm on October 15th." If that's what he meant, he should've written something like that. There's a big difference between the two statements.

EDITED TO ADD: I could cite plenty of articles that have come out from reputable news organizations that state Amanda's interrogation was 14 hours the night she accused Lumamba,and that's not true either. I suppose we could argue the case from the evidence portrayed in the media articles, but that seems like a waste of everyone's time.