Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #3

[hollyblue]

Second page about half way down they are talking about DH's case:

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/on-th...er-jet-skier039s-presumed-murder-borde?page=2

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Second page about half way down they are talking about DH's case:

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/on-th...er-jet-skier039s-presumed-murder-borde?page=2

Interesting...I'll take this expert's word over Tiffany's any day. Color and BBM.

VAN SUSTEREN: Secretary of State Hillary Clinton made a statement a couple weeks ago saying that Mexico is like Colombia was 20 years ago. She immediately got rebuffed by President Calderon of Mexico and President Obama. Mexico isn't like Colombia of 20 years ago or it is not?


NAPOLITANO: I would say there's key dissimilarities. But I would also say the drug cartels in Mexico, particularly those operating in the northern states of Mexico are of grave concern, not just in the Calderon administration but to the Obama administration.

And we are working very closely with the federal government of Mexico to do whatever we can to break up that's cartels. And part of those efforts are partially responsible, I think, for the level of violence we've seen grow in states like Chihuahua.

VAN SUSTEREN: Worse now than two years ago?

NAPOLITANO: The violence? Yes, I think you would have to state level of violence in those states is higher now than before.

VAN SUSTEREN: So it makes it harder to contain coming over into the United States, I take it?
NAPOLITANO: It's hard to say. We have done more, conversely, on our side of the border to be working with local law enforcement, keeping our eyes and ears open to signs of waves of spillover violence. And isolated crimes aside, we haven't seen that.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

[heading off arguments]

Yes yes, I know David Hartley's case could be one of those isolated incidents.

That isn't my point.

My point is, Tiffany is crusading against spillover violence that the Secretary of Homeland Security says isn't happening.[/heading off]

Why? And how did David get lost in all this?

And even more basic, David was killed on the Mexico side of the lake, right? So where is the spillover violence in that incident?

If he was killed in McAllen she might have a point.

All JMO MOO etc.

 

[hollyblue]

Taken from my previous link. This gives me a little more confindence...I hope that the investigation is ongoing.

VAN SUSTEREN: Are you satisfied with Mexico? It seems the whole Hartley thing is bizarre in the sense, where is the jet ski? Why isn't there more information on it? We are a couple weeks out on this and we have so little information. Is Mexico dragging its feet?

NAPOLITANO: I wouldn't say that, and you know having covered investigations for a long time, and I know having been a prosecutor, sometimes investigations just take time. And you need give them that time to develop the accurate facts.

VAN SUSTEREN: Is Mexico certain a crime has occurred?
NAPOLITANO: I don't want to talk about what they are saying. Again, they know this issue is of particular importance to the United States as are all crimes committed along the border, but this one particularly so.

 

[monkeypants]

so....why not 100% certain??

AURORA - The Texas sheriff who says he's "99.9 percent sure Tiffany Hartley is telling the truth" came to Colorado on Monday to talk about what he calls "border insecurity." Tiffany Hartley was right by his side.

http://www.9news.com/rss/article.aspx?storyid=159897

 

[alwaysonmymind]

Good morning everyone! Thanks for following the David Harley case.

In keeping with the information that is being put out by Mexican LE, US LE, and MSM, the posting rules for this thread are changing just a bit. As most of you have been on the Board for awhile, I know you are used to changing rules with the flow of information but for the newbies (welcome) I want to explain a bit.

In the beginning, we had a missing/possibly shot US citizen and a distraught wife. US LE believed the wife. Mexico LE said they did not believe her. This opened the wife up for discussion because the crime/missing person happened on Mexican soil/water, so Mexico LE has jurisdiction.

Mexico LE's position seems to have changed in that suspects were identified and named. Because Mexico LE has named suspects, this takes the wife, Tiffany off the table. Posting rules about TH are changing from this point forward.

Posts may no longer treat TH as a suspect. She is NOT a suspect. Posts may question her actions/words, but the post may not accuse her of any wrongdoing.

I know it will take a bit to get used to this. Please let me know if you have any questions.

It is important to remember that WS is a victim-friendly forum. TH and all of David's family are considered victims unless evidence is found that says otherwise. For now, LE from both jurisdictions appear to believe TH and we need to post accordingly.

If you have any questions, please pm me or any other mod (they are all aware of this policy) and we will be happy to answer them for you.

Thanks and sorry this post was so long.

Salem

I haven't been in here lately.

Thank you Salem.

 

[IWannaKnow]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/26/earlyshow/main6992817.shtml

Tiffany Hartley Calls for More Border Control
CBS News correspondent Don Teague reports

On "The Early Show" David Hartley's father, Dennis, and his sister, Nikki Hartley, echoed Tiffany's words. Nikki said, "I know it a frustrating point regarding my brother now, but I'd like to see them acknowledge what's going on down on the border. Acknowledge the drug wars that are going on over there and how it's affecting the security of the United States citizens."

She continued, "(We want) just for Americans to take time to educate themselves on what's going on. Start demanding that, you know, something's done so we can provide the support the Border Patrol needs, so we can provide the support to the people living on the border, so this doesn't happen to somebody else. I don't want any other family to have to go through this, and I think there's a lot of families that are going through this that we haven't heard of. A lot of it is just not ever made aware to the public."

http://www.denverpost.com/newsheadlines/ci_16433517

Texas sheriff highlights border-security problems in face of increasing drug-cartel violence in Mexico

By Kevin Vaughan
The Denver Post

"We're experiencing an actual war yards away from where we're at," Gonzalez said in a meeting room at a Parker hotel, where he addressed about two dozen metro-area law enforcement officers on what he called "border insecurity."

Gonzalez had scheduled the talk about a week before the Sept. 30 death of David Hartley, who has not been seen since his wife, Tiffany, reported that he was shot on the Mexican side of Falcon Reservoir during a sightseeing trip.

and from the same article:

Tiffany Hartley, who left Texas last week, met privately Monday with Gonzalez, then opened his talk asking people open their eyes to the drug violence that took her husband's life.

"You all obviously know my story, but I think this is bigger than just my story and what happened to David and I and our family," she said. "I knew what was going on down there, but I really didn't have a clear idea of what was going on. After this happened to us, obviously, my eyes have been opened. My family's eyes have opened."She said that the same day her husband was shot, a young boy was killed in Brownsville, Texas, in a crime carried out by cartel members. The boy's family won't speak out, however, out of fear, nor will people living in America with relatives in Mexico, Hartley said.

"I can speak out," Hartley said. "I can tell America what is going on down there. We need to stop closing our eyes and burying our head in the sand, otherwise they're going to take over our country, and we're going to be living in fear just like they are in Mexico right now."

I believe this is what she is alluding to when she speaks of God and country. That we have to wake up to what the drug cartels are up to....IMHO. NOT that Christians need to take over the US.....ther_beatingA_Dead

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117390"]Mex Cartels Control Part of AZ - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

Mex Cartels Control Part of AZ

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91597"]Human Trafficking Awareness Thread - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

Human Trafficking Awareness Thread

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81365&highlight=mexican+drug+cartel
Recruited at age 13 to kill!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66601&highlight=mexican+drug+cartel
Mexican Army Members Raid Phoenix Home & Shoot Man Dead

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65445&highlight=mexican+drug+cartel
Femicide in Juarez?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62691&highlight=mexican+drug+cartel
South America could explode...now!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43031&highlight=mexican+drug+cartel
Drug gang dumps five human heads in Mexican bar

I could go on.......

ETA: Contents of AZ border signage:

DANGER - PUBLIC WARNING, TRAVEL NOT RECOMMENDED
Active Drug and Human Smuggling Area
Visitors May Encounter Armed Criminals and Smuggling Vehicles Traveling at High Rates of Speed
Stay Away From Trash, Clothing, Backpacks and Abandoned Vehicles
If You See Suspicious Activity, Do Not Confront! Move away and call 911

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/30/jan-brewer-ad-blasts-obam_n_631431.html

 

[alwaysonmymind]

I found this googling around.

Interesting/disturbing information.


Also on Wednesday, authorities in the Gulf coast state of Tabasco announced that the nephew of one of Mexico's most-wanted drug gang leaders was captured together with a police chief accused of protecting a notorious cartel in a key port city.

Federal police detained Roberto Rivero Arana, who identified himself as the nephew of reputed Zetas gang leader Heriberto Lazcano, the Attorney General's Office said in a statement issued late Tuesday.

He was arrest along with Daniel Perez, the acting police chief of Ciudad del Carmen, an oil hub in neighboring Campeche state. The statement alleged Perez received 200,000 pesos ($16,000) a month for protecting the Zetas.

~snip~

Elsewhere, four severed human heads were found early Wednesday in Apatzingan, a town in the western state of Michoacan. Residents found the heads, with eyes still blindfolded, lined up at the foot of a monument along with a threatening message, state prosecutors said.

In Morelia, the Michoacan state capital, police reported finding the bodies of three young men who had been shot to death. The bodies had messages stuck to their chests with knives, The contents of the messages were not released.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/04/01/world/main6352799.shtml

 

[monkeypants]

from post above:

"I knew what was going on down there, but I really didn't have a clear idea of what was going on.

WHAAAAT????

she makes my head spin.....plain and simple. She is all double talk and no consistency. One minute she knows it all and the next no idea and now its both.....

 

[IWannaKnow]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/12/cartel.teens/index.html
Police: U.S. teens were hit men for Mexican cartel
By Ed Lavandera
CNN
March 13, 2009

LAREDO, Texas (CNN) -- Rosalio Reta sits at a table inside a Laredo Police Department interrogation room. A detective, sitting across the table, asks him how it all started.

Reta, in Spanish street slang, describes his initiation as an assassin, at the age of 13, for the Mexican Gulf Cartel, one of the country's two major drug gangs.

"I thought I was Superman. I loved doing it, killing that first person," Reta says on the videotape obtained by CNN. "They tried to take the gun away, but it was like taking candy from kid."

and

Prosecutor and investigators say Reta and Cardona were recruited into a group called "Los Zetas," a group made up of former members of the Mexican special military forces. They're considered ruthless in how they carry out attacks. "Los Zetas" liked what they saw in Cardona and Reta.

Both teenagers received six-month military-style training on a Mexican ranch. Investigators say Cardona and Reta were paid $500 a week each as a retainer, to sit and wait for the call to kill. Then they were paid up to $50,000 and 2 kilos of cocaine for carrying out a hit.

The teenagers lived in several safe houses around Laredo and drove around town in a $70,000 Mercedes-Benz.

As the teens became more immersed in the cartel lifestyle, their appearance changed. Cardona had eyeballs tattooed on his eyelids. Reta's face became covered in tattoo markings. (Prosecutors say during his trial Reta used make-up to cover the facial markings.) And both sported tattoos of "Santa Muerte," the Grim Reaper-like pseudo-saint worshipped by drug traffickers.

"These organizations, these cartels, they function like a Fortune 500 company," Webb County, Texas, prosecutor Uriel Druker said. "We have to remember that the United States is the market they are trying to get to."

There is an excellent video at this article that I cannot figure out how to imbed, but it was very instructive, IMO. And FWIW, Laredo, where they were working, is about 55 minutes away from Zapata on the Falcon Reservoir. I would think Zapata and Falcon could have been part of their territory. Not implying they were involved, they were in prison when this happened. This article is from 2009.

 

[IWannaKnow]

http://www.thenation.com/article/caught-crossfire

Caught in the Crossfire
Nathaniel Parish Flannery
May 2, 2010

Some of Jose's classmates struggle to remember the difference between neutrons and protons, but when prompted they can explain the nuances of the battles raging between Mexico's army and members of warring drug cartels. They talk about the cartel hitmen and their killing methods the way kids elsewhere might talk about local sports stars. "El guiso [which means "stew"] is a torture method where the cartel men put you in a barrel, pour gas on you and burn you alive," one of the students told me.

One of the guidance counselors at the school told me that "many things are going on in Mexico that are not coming out in the news, but [the students] have relatives there, so they hear." Some of the students are scared, she said. One former student went to visit relatives in Mexico and disappeared. "He was never found," she told me.

One of the students told me about a neighbor who was tortured, shot, hung and burned by cartel hitmen. They left his heart in a box for his wife, she said. "They know how to make you suffer," she told me. Teachers said students have failed out of school after learning that members of their families had been tortured and killed by cartel enforcers.

 

[IWannaKnow]

http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/excamdru.html

Drug War Zone
Frontline Dispatches from the Streets of El Paso and Juárez
By Howard Campbell

On July 2, 2007, Joaquín "El Chapo" Guzmán, a drug lord and the most wanted man in Mexico, married a woman from La Angostura, Durango, in a public ceremony. Though already married twice, Guzmán fell in love with eighteen-year-old Emma Coronel—described by a reporter as being white skinned and having a well-formed body—who had recently been named queen of the 2007 Coffee and Guava Fair (Dávila 2007b, 7). Emma had met Chapo at a village dance. Before he arrived at the wedding, a small army of heavily armed, masked, and black-clad bodyguards on 200 two-seater all-terrain motorcycles took over the town in what must have appeared like a scene out of a James Bond movie.

While the bodyguards protected all ten entrances to the village, a narcocorrido band, Los Canelos de Durango, armed with gold-handled pistols, arrived in a small plane. Six more planes touched down, from one of which El Chapo emerged, dressed in his customary jeans, vest, and baseball cap, an AK-47 cuerno de chivo (goat horn) rifle strapped across his chest and a pistol that matched his clothes attached to his belt. Helicopters circled overhead as other planes landed and unloaded innumerable cases of whiskey, crates of weapons (grenades, machine guns, more AK-47s, etc.), and more security guards dressed in green military fatigues and sporting bullet-proof vests with police-style radios clipped to their chests. According to the reporter who described the event, Chapo's entourage was more ostentatious than that of a Mexican president (Dávila 2007b, 6-11).

Background information. They have more than enough resources to carry out killing and disposing of David Hartley. :twocents:

 

[hollyblue]

from post above:

"I knew what was going on down there, but I really didn't have a clear idea of what was going on.

WHAAAAT????

she makes my head spin.....plain and simple. She is all double talk and no consistency. One minute she knows it all and the next no idea and now its both.....

They both knew how dangerous it was to go there.....she's just now learning the political and business mechanics of it. She still has very much to learn, imo.

Excuse the Halloween pun, but they weren't lead into a Mexican house of horrors blindfolded. They were well aware of the violence that was going on in the town they lived in and the surrounding area. It's tragic, IF her story is true, but it is a war zone and has been for many years. Why anyone would go there is beyond my comprehension.

It has been allowed to escalate and now is uncontrollable. And it's not just one factor in the demise. Unless there is some kind of revolution by the citizens of MX backed by monies from elsewhere, it will continue. Not a pretty scenario...at all. imo....the US will get further involved when it's to their advantage...mainly $$$...business ops, etc. Cartels have their hands into the state owned oil company of Pemex and I'm sure there is thief among the US auto factories there, Calfrac has experienced it..how much...???? Hope it comes soon, because the situation is growing here in the US. Local LE has their hands full with keeping gang violence and drugs at bay as it is. It's very noticeable in the major cities, but is very active in rural areas also....they just spread our from there.

I could get very political...and prolly get vegetables thrown at me, so I'll shut up...as this is about what happened to DH....and it is still "alleged" and don't want this to become about anything else...as some "other" person in this case has.

JMO

 

[monkeypants]

i think I keep going back to the pirate motive....
i just cant get past it. Even the US sheriff said there would be virtually no chance of mistaken identity because the pirates immediately descend on people and get in their faces for recognition. It is their style to go up to vessles and identify the people on board and rob them. I still can't find any articles stating that what happened to David is something that is a common occurence or even something that has happened one time before. It just seems like the pirates would approach them and rob them. I just don't understand the high speed chase and shooting with no reasoning or motive...it just doesn't add up when I keep reading all these articles that are being posted. This is more like an assisination then a normal course of pirate activity on that lake. Quite frankly the sheriff stating at a press conference with TH right next to him that he believes her "story" only 99.9% tells me he may absolutely be harboring doubts on this and is leaving that door open since it is an ongoing investigation and he may know more then he is letting on and just using the situation at hand to push his own agenda before the elections.

 

[hollyblue]

Very long and informative article:

'He took a bullet for me' at Falcon Lake, Hartley's wife says

This week, they appeared on "The Today Show" again and taped an appearance with Dr. Phil. There is talk of a website and a charitable foundation

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/10/28/hartley.falcon.lake/

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Unfortunately for STRATFOR's agenda, Tiffany just threw their "mistaken identity" theory under the bus.

She doesn't buy the theory that the Zetas mistook them for spies from another cartel. "We're white people, we're not cartel style..."

Other points of interest:

And she's no merry widow, as one border town official suggested.

Merry widow? Hmm. Which border town official? Haven't seen that in the media, has anyone else?

"He put himself between me and the three boats," Hartley said. "There's no doubt in my mind that he put himself there on purpose. That if a bullet was to hit us, it would hit him and not me. He would do whatever he could to protect me."

IMO, the only logical way for David to put himself between her and three boats to protect her as she says, is if the boats were traveling one behind the other like ants in a line:

Tiffany-------> *

David--------> *

First boat----> *

Second boat-> *

Third boat--- > *


I would think these hardened savvy criminals would have spread out more like this if they were shooting at both of them:

Tiffany-----------> *

David------------> *

Three boats----> * * *

She said she made eye contact with two of them

Yet she can't describe them? And didn't she say earlier she was focused on the gun pointed at her, not at them?

As for Hartley's body and Sea-Doo, Stewart says his sources are telling him they were "disappeared."

I guess these are the same sources that told STRATFOR it was a case of mistaken identity, which Tiffany now denies? Curiouser and curiouser.

Much more at link.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/10/28/hartley.falcon.lake/

 

[Trident]

With all the horrors and carnage that is reportedly going on down there on the border, I simply cannot understand why anyone would try to pick apart the story of a young woman whose husband was killed. My God, people are being burned alive, the cartels have more fire power than the government, and yet, there is a need to look at one lone woman as if she is a criminal? I do not understand this. God knows, the horror of the cartels is a much more likely subject for suspicion and outrage.

My opinion only

 

[hollyblue]

With all the horrors and carnage that is reportedly going on down there on the border, I simply cannot understand why anyone would try to pick apart the story of a young woman whose husband was killed. My God, people are being burned alive, the cartels have more fire power than the government, and yet, there is a need to look at one lone woman as if she is a criminal? I do not understand this. God knows, the horror of the cartels is a much more likely subject for suspicion and outrage.

My opinion only

Also a perfect area for a mishap/disappearance...just for that very same reason.

JMO

 

[Trident]

Also a perfect area for a mishap/disappearance...just for that very same reason.

JMO

Good point. The next time I want to "off" one of my relatives I'll drive down to the border, do the deed, then blame it on the cartels. In reality though, it seems like a dangerous way to do it. When you play with people without a conscience, there are no guarantees you will come out alive. To me it's almost akin to visiting Iraq/Afghanistan, strapping a few missiles to ole hubby's body and shoving him in front of a convoy. In my opinion that's a bit foolish, convoluted, and way too tricky - too much room for error and backfire. I cannot agree that the best place for a murder, without harm to yourself is a war zone, too many variables.

My opinion only

 

[sorrell skye]

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/10/28/hartley.falcon.lake/

snipped from article:

She sees the hand of God in the facts that surfaced and supported her story: the traces of blood on her life vest, the result of trying to save David; the dash-cam video that confirms her timeline; the Border Patrol agents who saw the couple eating lunch at a Subway sandwich shop before launching their Sea-Doos; the eyewitness who came forward to say he saw her returning on the Sea-Doo, looking shaken.

I'm aware that everyone processes & interprets tragedies in their own way, based on that individual's understanding & abilities. If it were my husband that this had happened to, I'd be upset that the hand of my higher power hadn't intervened to prevent the brutal murder of my beloved, but had instead chosen to *line up* events beforehand in order to support my *story*.

But that's just my opinion based upon my own (and quite possibly flawed) concept of the Unseen Hand. Perhaps I lack understanding.

IMO, TYH has expressed a particularly unique perception of the tragic murder of her husband and her stated perception of God's role in what happened that fateful day.

ETA: I suppose divine intervention can take many forms, and can be perceived quite differently, depending upon where & what one's attention is focused.

JMO