Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #3

[Kimberlyd125]

With all the horrors and carnage that is reportedly going on down there on the border, I simply cannot understand why anyone would try to pick apart the story of a young woman whose husband was killed. My God, people are being burned alive, the cartels have more fire power than the government, and yet, there is a need to look at one lone woman as if she is a criminal? I do not understand this. God knows, the horror of the cartels is a much more likely subject for suspicion and outrage.

My opinion only

I totally agree Trident.

 

[IWannaKnow]

http://www.coha.org/mexico’s-new-war-sex-trafficking/

Mexico’s New War: Sex Trafficking
by COHA Research Associate Melissa Graham

Human trafficking accounts for 6.6 billion USD a year in Mexico alone,1 a figure that is growing as human trafficking continues its rise in profitability. The vast expansion of human trafficking from Mexico to the United States is notable in its absence from the media; instead, a wealth of analysis of drug related problems continually takes the spotlight. Conservative estimates conclude that over 100,000 women, a number predicted to increase by the end of 2010, are trafficked out of Latin America annually for the purpose of prostitution.2

and

The problem with human and sex trafficking is that it has become a side business for many cartels to supplement their lost income in the “war on drugs.” Kloer again explains it best: “When a drug cartel traffics a pound of cocaine into the U.S., they can only sell it once. When they traffic a young woman into the U.S., they can sell her again and again.”

How much do you think Tiffany would have been worth?? Alot IMO. But not full of bullet holes.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

With all the horrors and carnage that is reportedly going on down there on the border, I simply cannot understand why anyone would try to pick apart the story of a young woman whose husband was killed. My God, people are being burned alive, the cartels have more fire power than the government, and yet, there is a need to look at one lone woman as if she is a criminal? I do not understand this. God knows, the horror of the cartels is a much more likely subject for suspicion and outrage.

My opinion only

1. Because that story is full of holes and contradictions, IMO.

2. There's no evidence except the word of the person telling that holey story that her husband was killed.

3. I have never looked at her as if she is a criminal, just a liar. I have no idea why she is lying, but I believe she is.

JMO.

 

[easttexas]

Good point. The next time I want to "off" one of my relatives I'll drive down to the border, do the deed, then blame it on the cartels. In reality though, it seems like a dangerous way to do it. When you play with people without a conscience, there are no guarantees you will come out alive. To me it's almost akin to visiting Iraq/Afghanistan, strapping a few missiles to ole hubby's body and shoving him in front of a convoy. In my opinion that's a bit foolish, convoluted, and way too tricky - too much room for error and backfire. I cannot agree that the best place for a murder, without harm to yourself is a war zone, too many variables.

My opinion only

I agree....way too risky as the Hartleys knew of all of the violence at the border. But they only went to get pictures....:waitasec:

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Another few things I find very strange about this case.

I live in San Diego and you couldn't pay me enough to go to Tijuana. Still, if I did and my husband were killed, ostensibly by drug cartels, I wouldn't then be calling on the president, the secretary of state, God and everybody in THIS country to secure our borders. I voluntarily entered a foreign country, and the US can't assure the safety of its citizens in other countries.

So I don't understand why Tiffany is making this about securing US borders when she and David voluntarily crossed the border, and the crime happened in Mexico, according to her.

Second, the reason you couldn't pay me enough to go to Tijuana is I know about the violence going on in Mexico. We hear about it on the news here all the time. And Calfrac moved the Hartleys from Reynosa to McAllen because Reynosa was getting too dangerous. Yet Tiffany says they didn't know about the violence in Mexico? :waitasec:

Finally, even though you couldn't pay me enough to go to Tijuana, I feel perfectly safe here. Why? Because the violence is happening THERE, not HERE. Any so-called "spillover violence" that I've heard about happening on this side of the border--and there has been little--usually involves Mexican victims suspected of being involved themselves in the drug trade. Nothing that I recall about innocent Americans being caught up in the violence on this side of the border.

So IMO Tiffany is completely barking up the wrong tree trying to make this about securing our borders. And I wonder why.

 

[sdmike1974]

One thing you must remember about Websleuths; we do not allow accusations against innocent people unless they have been named a suspect or persons of interest.

Sincerely,
Tricia Griffith
Owner/Websleuths.com

I appreciate your concern re: accusatory postings about TH.

But it seems not only a bit too restricive, but it also seems to run counter to what most of us here have understood your policy to be up to the date of your post.

You must be aware that Terri Horman has never been named a suspect or a POI. What you seem to be saying is that we can no longer speculate about her possible involvement in the disappearance of little Kyron.

If I am missing your point, I apologize.

Perhaps you would differentiate by your claim that DH's 'widow' (TH) has been 'completely' cleared and can only be considered a victim at this point. If that is the case, then I guess we can respectively agree to disagree while some of your longtime posters either go elsewhere or stop posting.

Best Personal Regards,
Michael

 

[Advocate4]

i think I keep going back to the pirate motive....
i just cant get past it. ... I just don't understand the high speed chase and shooting with no reasoning or motive...it just doesn't add up when I keep reading all these articles that are being posted.

I don't understand it either, because I would never do it. But even here in the US, people are and have been murdered for years and years for no particular reason that honest good people would never understand (a $20 pair of shoes?).

Maybe it was a bet between the "pirates": "Bet you can't hit that guy."

Or maybe it was just an impulse, a whim. That's all they need, that's the point that has to be understood about these cartels and their hangers-on. Anything or nothing will do as their reasoning or motive.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I'm not Tricia but can give my opinion on the Kyron case being different since I have followed both.

When Kyron first came up missing, A LOT of WSers thought Terri was behind it. BUT, we were told to lay off of her and not to bash her. At the time, she was an innocent victim.
It was not until later, when LE seemed to be focusing on Terri did the Mods let us talk about what Terri may or may not have done to Kyron.
It has always been my understanding that family members are to be considered victims and can not be sleuthed/bashed until there is substantial reason LE has made us think otherwise.

As this case stands now, we are not told we can not talk about or have questions about Tiffany, we were told not to bash her. Why is bashing needed anyway?

JMO and not trying to answer for Tricia.

Just wanted to give my 2cents.

ETA: and thread rules change as a case develops.

 

[monkeypants]

believers keep asking why she would go to mexico to dispose of David and blame the cartels....
I keep asking how do you know she was ever in Mexico? Perhaps he was killed between subway and the boat ramp since there are no witnesses to say they ever saw two jet skis on the lake or off loading the truck etc. If she had assistance it never had to take place there and whomever assisted her could have taken the jet ski, the body and put a drop of his blood on her vest as she went out into the water and circled around to the US side and began the theatrics. I am just saying...there is NO proof of a dead body or proof of her "story" and since no one is cleared we need to be able to discuss other possibilities. There are no named suspects and no one has been cleared in this case. I am not sure David is even dead.

Olivia Newton John's boyfriend disappeared from a fishing boat in mexico and there was no body....and lo and behold he showed up 5 years later in Mexico....so there is other possibilities out there.
TH is NOT acting like 99.9% of women in this world that just saw their husband murdered in front of their eyes and narrowly escaped death themselves. She just isn't and the only time in recent memory we have seen such cold behavior in the news has been casey anthony. People say there is no book on grieving but that isn't true and it has been studied by decades by profilers and the FBI and forensic personnel for ever- there is an innate coping that we are all hard wired and there are emotions that are evoked that can't be controlled in times of incredible sadness and grief. She shows none of it that I have seen with my own eyes. There is no anger, no cry for justice and no outward overwhelming sadness. Just the desire to move on with her life and distract with political issues.

TH was perhaps more versed in the border issues and the drug cartels and violence than anyone else reading this -short of people that live on the TX border. She has had to move from her home in mexico and relocate and her husbands company was very clear why. She then moved to TX where news of all this violence is much more common place then in other parts of this country. She in her own words stated that they practiced what they would do should it happen on that VERY day.....

So I know inherently people want to believe the good in people and I am also one of those people. I am not a hater or overly suspicious in my life, however I do have a good hinky meter and the bells are ringing off the chart on this one.

So as strongly as some believe she is innocent, there are others that believe the true story has not been told yet and may never....and to keep questioning why we would suspect someone that has just lost their spouse in a tragic way- those others are wondering how the believers can't see all the discrepancies in the "story" and the incredibly odd behavior being displayed.

I am just saying both sides of the fence feel very strongly with their line of thinking and there are a ton of people sitting right on the fence with this case who dont want to believe she is not being truthful but can't buy into it 100%-including sheriff sigi who said it right to her on monday in a press conference but stating he believes her "story" 99.9%.

 

[monkeypants]

I don't understand it either, because I would never do it. But even here in the US, people are and have been murdered for years and years for no particular reason that honest good people would never understand (a $20 pair of shoes?).

Maybe it was a bet between the "pirates": "Bet you can't hit that guy."

Or maybe it was just an impulse, a whim. That's all they need, that's the point that has to be understood about these cartels and their hangers-on. Anything or nothing will do as their reasoning or motive.

BBM

$20 pair of shoes IS a motive- if robbery was a motive they would have taken TH's jet ski as well since the only other thing they seemed to have had was a camera and she didn't say they took that

The history of violence and the pirates that patrol this lake seem very consistent to me in their practices. A whim or a bet doesn't fit into their normal course of activity and I don't believe there are any instances to support it to date, if I am wrong I apologize and would like to read the articles. I am only talking about this lake...not any other area or part of mexico.

 

[evergreen]

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - David Hartley - Pirates shoot US man in Mexican waters #2

This is the post from the last thread that explains about why they would take and hide the body.

ETA: Snipped from the post linked above:

It must also be recognized that any attempt to quantify the death toll in the Mexican cartel wars is quickly complicated by the fact that the cartels have gotten very good at disposing of bodies. Many victims simply disappear, and their murders are never confirmed. For example, in December 2008, American anti-kidnapping consultant Felix Batista disappeared from a meeting at a restaurant in Saltillo, Coahuila state. Batista reportedly was murdered, but no trace of his body was ever found. In addition to dumping bodies in mass graves, using wood chippers or feeding them to vultures, Mexican cartels also have developed innovative ways to dispose of their victims’ corpses. Santiago “El Pozolero” Meza Lopez, a Tijuana cartel enforcer arrested in January 2009, admitted to Mexican authorities that he was responsible for dissolving at least 300 bodies in sodium hydroxide, a process known as making “guiso,” Spanish for “stew.” The cartels can either dispose of a body or mutilate it and leave it to be found, depending on the specific message they wish to send.

yes they can hide bodies. but if not being detected was so important to the "pirates" why did they let TH go when they could have killed her and also hidden her body?

 

[evergreen]

BBM
You reference "a fishing boat with a max mph of what 30-40 mph....yet they were right behind her and on her tail when she was approaching US soil? Given the "chase" would have been over a few miles at least, how in the world did they manage to stay so close to her.?"


Was the 30-40 miles given as fact in any statement or article that you could provide a link for please because I have a "fishing boat" & have gone 72mph in it.

her story is that they were "watching" her as she was in the water with David and then she made the decision she had to leave. they were right there. they could have taken her. they could have shot her. but she claims she was able to get on her jet ski and then somehow they let her do this, let her get moving on it, "then" started chasing her? and chased her for miles?

 

[IzzyBlanche]

BBM:

Napolitano also answered criticism from Tiffany Hartley — the widow of a man believed killed by Mexican pirates — who urged the Obama administration to improve security at the border.

The secretary said the federal government offered help to Mexican authorities on that case. She said statements made by a Texas sheriff that enough wasn't being done by the federal government are not true.
"I can't think of more we could have done in that situation," she said.

Napolitano said border violence is not spilling over into the U.S. and that some of the safest cities in the country — San Diego, Austin, Phoenix and El Paso — are near the border.

The U.S. has offered help to Mexican President Felipe Calderon as he takes on deeply entrenched drug cartels.

On Thursday, the federal government sent two helicopters to Mexico and has trained Mexican law enforcement officers to establish their own border patrol, Napolitano said.

"There is a lot going on to assist Mexico," she said. "It's a long-term project and something both countries have an interest in."

Read more: Napolitano: Colo. "in good shape" against terror threats - The Denver Post

http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_16463510#ixzz13mZhKMBL

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'll take the word of the secretary of Homeland Security on these issues over Tiffany Hartley's any day.

ETA: I sure hope the Mexican authorities accepted US assistance in this case and the investigation is ongoing.

 

[hollyblue]

http://www.coha.org/mexico’s-new-war-sex-trafficking/

Mexico’s New War: Sex Trafficking
by COHA Research Associate Melissa Graham

and



How much do you think Tiffany would have been worth?? Alot IMO. But not full of bullet holes.

Most of the trafficking is done FROM Mexico..taking the unfortunate local girls. That being said, they could have taken and profitably utilized Tiffany as a mule or even working on the packaging line. She's a bit over the age of forced prostitution...although not saying it couldn't happen..nor have been a focus of fun for any group of pirates. But, they either saw her as non-profitable or nonthreatening because they left her alone.... just like "nothing ever happened". Ahem ....??????

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I don't think they just left her alone. Wasn't there a witness that saw a boat chasing her?

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Stop the presses, I actually agree with IWannaKnow that if the pirates were interested in capturing Tiffany for prostitution purposes, she'd be worth nothing if full of bullet holes.

But they chased her back shooting at her, she says.

So I don't think that possible motive holds water (no pun intended).

 

[hollyblue]

I don't think they just left her alone. Wasn't there a witness that saw a boat chasing her?

They didn't rape, rob, kidnap or kill her. According to her...they pointed a gun at her, then began shooting at her again as she was fleeing the scene. Who's to say who was in the boat? I don't think the witness saw any guns or heard any shots? Didn't most of the other robbery victims get chased back to the US waters....but the pirates turned back and never entered the US side? In fact, the only other people who heard shots besides Tiffany were the people who stated they thought the shots were bird hunters.....I don't think you use automatic weapons to shoot birds....(although I'd be happy to accommodate a flock of pigeons around my neighborhood.) which reminds me...we haven't heard much about that "hearing" lately....maybe it's being investigated?

I think it would be very informative to have Tiffany draw a map, diagram and pictures telling her story of what she and David saw and encountered from the time they entered the waters til the 911 call. LE and psychologists use it all the time for children who can't seem to express or get their jumbled thoughts together. Personally, I'd even pay to see a video of that. JMO

 

[mysterygirl]

Thanks for the info.

You are probably going to be told something for linking to a site to purchase something but your post is interesting.

 

[monkeypants]

i guess I just dont understand why the pirates pointed a gun at her and then drove away after deciding they weren't interested and liked having witnesses but then after she decided<I mean God told her to> leave (why was that if they had made the decision to let her go BTW?) they suddenly changed their minds and began chasing her and shooting. The witness did NOT say he saw or heard any shooting and actually stated he thought it was nice that people were out enjoying the lake..

 

[IWannaKnow]

Stop the presses, I actually agree with IWannaKnow that if the pirates were interested in capturing Tiffany for prostitution purposes, she'd be worth nothing if full of bullet holes.

But they chased her back shooting at her, she says.

So I don't think that possible motive holds water (no pun intended).

j/k :hug:

We are all entitled to our opinion, thank goodness. I totally respect your difference of opinion and actually understand the points you guys are trying to make, and always appreciate anyone who can make me see something from a different point of view. We can agree to disagree. Who knows, maybe one case we will agree!

FWIW, I think that once she started running, it was more important to stop her than to harvest her for merchandise at that point. And, exactly as has been pointed out by other posters, this is the first time this has happened. No one else has been shot, so the stakes are higher in this instance. IMHO it became much more important to stop her from reaching the US so that she couldn't tell this story and cause the uproar she is causing. If they could have gotten her before she got back onto the jet ski, I believe she would have been sold into prostitution in Mexico - but please remember that they were on water. It wouldn't be quite as easy to grab her if she is not willing to cooperate, especially if the pirates don't swim that well, not wearing life jackets, etc. And you can't swim with a gun. If your buddies start shooting, they are as likely to hit you. Blondes are highly desired commodity over there. In no way do I think TH would have been trafficked back to the US. She would have been used up and killed, right there in Mexico. Who knows, perhaps by some drug lord himself - El Chapo has three wives. And as far as why D & TH? The other incidences were fishermen, in boats - fishing. It was very obvious what they were doing and why they were there. D & TH were on jet skis, with cameras, no fishing poles. My understanding is that area is hotly contested route because they lost their route through Matamoros. They waved at them at first (the same as has been reported with other incidences), but D & T didn't stop, they started racing away on the jet skis still taking pictures. If you thought someone was trying to surveil you, and they immediately started running away wouldn't you think the worst? Perhaps it was something as simple as ONE NEW GUY, who got excited and started shooting and then the rest followed suit. IDK, but after that article that I posted earlier about the 13 y.o. assassins from Laredo....I don't know about you, but most 13 y.o.'s I know are not the best judge of circumstances. I do not believe we will ever know the answer to that because it is in the cartels best interest to disappear all evidence of this crime. Why leave evidence of an international incident laying around, to give the US a reason to start problems with you over and above what you have from doing your daily business?

Looking forward to continuing to agree to disagree with you IzzyBlanche :blowkiss: