Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #3

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ok this is from CNN.com article....


"She responded without hesitation to the questions people have raised about her account of the events at Falcon. She said she was hurt by the suspicion, but no, there was no drug deal gone bad. She doesn't buy the theory that the Zetas mistook them for spies from another cartel. "We're white people, we're not cartel style. I think they were just after our Jet Skis.""
so even she says that they were just being robbed...so again...if that is true why not take hers?

I keep hearing posters say that it would be too hard to take her on the boat ect...but by her own account she was in the water floating holding onto the jet ski.

[I]""In the water, she pleaded with her unconscious husband: "I don't know what to do! I don't know what to do."]"


<note: how is that pleading with him? to me pleading with her husband would have been 'please dont die, please dont die>

she is 4'10" and 100lbs...most men could pick her up with one hand.

"She was holding David by his life vest with one hand, her Sea-Doo with the other, when she found herself staring down the barrel of a gun. The men had returned."

sounds to me they had the upper hand and could take whatever they wanted.....easily.

She said she made eye contact with two of them, no more than 12 feet away, pleading, "Don't shoot. Please don't shoot."

made eye contact but cant give ANY description other then teenagers....can't even describe them to a police artist TH??

BTW the teenagers description wasnt in her first few media appearances....it showed up in a later "story" her first "story" was she never saw them, only the barrel of a gun
 
she was in the water and supposedly there were boats there with men and guns just looking at her struggling with her husband. they had plenty of time to shoot her. God intervened and they let her go. Then God intervened again and told them to go chase her.

this from a CNN article:


She was holding David by his life vest with one hand, her Sea-Doo with the other, when she found herself staring down the barrel of a gun. The men had returned.

She said she made eye contact with two of them, no more than 12 feet away, pleading, "Don't shoot. Please don't shoot."

My opinion is that they did not want to shoot her until she started running away again. For whatever reason. I do not debate that they had the manpower, the gunpower, the upper hand, whatever else you want to throw in there, because exactly as you say - if they had wanted to, they would have.....

With the assistance of God??....not for me to judge. She certainly survived by the hair of her chinny-chin-chin. If she felt God was with her, who am I to argue that?

Snipped:


I don't understand your argument? They still let her go...unharmed. Why? Witness to a murder? If the cartels or pirates, they knew it would be reported and put a damper on their "business". Doesn't add up. imo


If they chased her back close enough for someone to see them, don't you think they know exactly where she ran a ground and possibly saw the "the witness" too? I really don't know why the sighting witness would frightened...Tiffany's the one who supposedly saw everything and yet they let her go. ??



If her story is true, how would shooting her ruin it more for them....they already killed David? If this was the cartel, I truly believe they would have shot her and gained another jet ski. If they wanted her in the boat, and she refused. Bang. I don't think they would say oh gee I now have to put my gun down in the boat and get wet to retrieve this spoiled brat; nor do I think anyone toting a AK47 would have a macho problem when faced with an uncooperative female. How many have they shot already? Even if it was young, undisciplined Zetas or pirates as I mentioned above..why let her go and ruin their business? They apparently were pro enough to get rid of DH and his jet ski with no evidence.....so they could have very well done the same with her and had no proof of anything....except his truck and trailer at the dock. ???? Pirates or a couple just taking off for new horizons? Maybe things would have been a little difficult business wise for awhile, but they wouldn't have had a witness to go back and blab and point the finger directly at them. I just don't see it the way she says it went down. Maybe DH pulled a weapon back at them? Carrying a weapon on the lake is illegal in first place, and TH didn't want to bring it up? The only reason I can think of for them shooting DH, and he being the first on the lake, is if he pulled a weapon on them. But still, to me the question remains....why they let her go.

JMO

This is semantics. I do not believe they "let" her go. I believe she escaped. I feel that until she ran after trying to get David, she had value to them (ransom, trafficking, plaything ??? Your guess is as good as mine.) Once she ran the second time, it became stop her, above all else, which is why they followed her back to the US IMO for the very reason you discuss. She, and her story are bad for business. I really think this happened very quickly and they did not know what to do. I don't think they really planned on killing David, but it happened and then it became "what do we do now?". That is why I think they went back to confer with the other boats when she decided to run. And at that point bullet holes would be a good thing - they wanted her dead once she started running again. She said she was on the side of the jet ski, putting it between her and them, until she got enough distance to feel safe.

You are correct though. If they watched her run aground, they should know who was there. I thought I had read that he owned a home there, but something else said he took the day off work....IDK. If he was just John Q. Civilian I would think he would be hard to ID without seeing his face.

But to answer your question directly - I don't think they "allowed" her to do anything. Tiffany escaped. Horse of a different color.
 
My opinion is that they did not want to shoot her until she started running away again. For whatever reason. I do not debate that they had the manpower, the gunpower, the upper hand, whatever else you want to throw in there, because exactly as you say - if they had wanted to, they would have.....

With the assistance of God??....not for me to judge. She certainly survived by the hair of her chinny-chin-chin. If she felt God was with her, who am I to argue that?



This is semantics. I do not believe they "let" her go. I believe she escaped. I feel that until she ran after trying to get David, she had value to them (ransom, trafficking, plaything ??? Your guess is as good as mine.) Once she ran the second time, it became stop her, above all else, which is why they followed her back to the US IMO for the very reason you discuss. She, and her story are bad for business. I really think this happened very quickly and they did not know what to do. I don't think they really planned on killing David, but it happened and then it became "what do we do now?". That is why I think they went back to confer with the other boats when she decided to run. And at that point bullet holes would be a good thing - they wanted her dead once she started running again. She said she was on the side of the jet ski, putting it between her and them, until she got enough distance to feel safe.

You are correct though. If they watched her run aground, they should know who was there. I thought I had read that he owned a home there, but something else said he took the day off work....IDK. If he was just John Q. Civilian I would think he would be hard to ID without seeing his face.

But to answer your question directly - I don't think they "allowed" her to do anything. Tiffany escaped. Horse of a different color.

I understand what your saying, I just find it hard to vision that they were in front of her and she had to pass them....were all three boats that far away not to stop her again, or hit her when firing? We do need a diagram. :innocent:
 
made eye contact but cant give ANY description other then teenagers....can't even describe them to a police artist TH??

Was that the same article where she said the men were whispering in Spanish?

Amazing that she could hear that whispering over the noise of the jet skis and the boat motors, isn't it?
 
Was that the same article where she said the men were whispering in Spanish?

Amazing that she could hear that whispering over the noise of the jet skis and the boat motors, isn't it?


the one and the same article....now they were whispering...so far we have heard she never spoke to them, they never said anything, the pirates had what do we do now expressions, she begged them not to shoot....take your pick as it changes daily...or just wait as it appears new versions arrive daily...

not only did she hear whispers but she also heard bullets landing in the water while going 60+mph in the water ...fascinating....

I am waiting for the physics people to chime in on how seemingly impossible her version is with the hail of bullet fire from 3 boats with 3-4 pirates in each shooting while the jet skis are going 60+ mph and probably zig zagging etc while their own boats are moving at their highest rate of speed....
 
My opinion is that they did not want to shoot her until she started running away again. For whatever reason. I do not debate that they had the manpower, the gunpower, the upper hand, whatever else you want to throw in there, because exactly as you say - if they had wanted to, they would have.....

With the assistance of God??....not for me to judge. She certainly survived by the hair of her chinny-chin-chin. If she felt God was with her, who am I to argue that?



This is semantics. I do not believe they "let" her go. I believe she escaped. I feel that until she ran after trying to get David, she had value to them (ransom, trafficking, plaything ??? Your guess is as good as mine.) Once she ran the second time, it became stop her, above all else, which is why they followed her back to the US IMO for the very reason you discuss. She, and her story are bad for business. I really think this happened very quickly and they did not know what to do. I don't think they really planned on killing David, but it happened and then it became "what do we do now?". That is why I think they went back to confer with the other boats when she decided to run. And at that point bullet holes would be a good thing - they wanted her dead once she started running again. She said she was on the side of the jet ski, putting it between her and them, until she got enough distance to feel safe.

You are correct though. If they watched her run aground, they should know who was there. I thought I had read that he owned a home there, but something else said he took the day off work....IDK. If he was just John Q. Civilian I would think he would be hard to ID without seeing his face.

But to answer your question directly - I don't think they "allowed" her to do anything. Tiffany escaped. Horse of a different color.

not wanting to shoot her when she is 12 feet away in the water and then wanting to shoot her after you let her get up onto her ski jet and "escape" makes no sense whether you "believe" it or not.
 
I hadn't read this before. I found it while looking for transcripts of her description of the events. I would like to compare them but the only one I know about and have been able to find is the JVM transcript from CNN....


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/19/earlyshow/main6971650.shtml

Oct. 19, 2010
Tiffany Hartley Questioned Another Eight Hours
Widow of Jet Skier Allegedly Slain on Lake on Texas-Mexico Border Questioned Again, Says She Has Nothing to Hide

CBS News correspondent Don Teague


But Hartley believes Mexican authorities are trying to help her. She's even been questioned -- without an attorney.

Tiffany said, "I have nothing to hide. I have absolutely nothing to hide."

If she did plot, plan and carry out the intentional international killing of DT, being interviewed for several hours without an attorney would be a deadly mistake. :twocents:
 
not wanting to shoot her when she is 12 feet away in the water and then wanting to shoot her after you let her get up onto her ski jet and "escape" makes no sense whether you "believe" it or not.

To each his own. That is what makes WS such a great place, don't you think? :woohoo:
 
I hadn't read this before. I found it while looking for transcripts of her description of the events. I would like to compare them but the only one I know about and have been able to find is the JVM transcript from CNN....


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/19/earlyshow/main6971650.shtml

Oct. 19, 2010
Tiffany Hartley Questioned Another Eight Hours
Widow of Jet Skier Allegedly Slain on Lake on Texas-Mexico Border Questioned Again, Says She Has Nothing to Hide

CBS News correspondent Don Teague




If she did plot, plan and carry out the intentional international killing of DT, being interviewed for several hours without an attorney would be a deadly mistake. :twocents:

because she comes across as a narcissist and I feel believes that she can distract with political issues. I am sure that if we search we will find that there are plenty of criminals that did not lawyer up....doesn't prove guilt or innocence IMO.

Not having an attorney will catch up to her.....as all these discrepancies will be used against her if it turns out that she played a role in the disappearance or death of David.
 
because she comes across as a narcissist and I feel believes that she can distract with political issues. I am sure that if we search we will find that there are plenty of criminals that did not lawyer up....doesn't prove guilt or innocence IMO.

Not having an attorney will catch up to her.....as all these discrepancies will be used against her if it turns out that she played a role in the disappearance or death of David.


Distract from what exactly?
 
distracting from the alleged murder of her husband.

Instead of demanding justice for those that killed her husband and nearly took her own life she is focused on political issues. Never once in all these interviews or appearances has TH demanded justice for her husband or been angry.

This is the first time I can remember where a victim didn't demand justice. It makes no sense. Why would she not want the people who did this to her punished? She is concerned with border patrol, but not with getting these murderers off the lake so it doesn't happen to someone else....pretty hypocritical to me.
 
distracting from the alleged murder of her husband.

Instead of demanding justice for those that killed her husband and nearly took her own life she is focused on political issues. Never once in all these interviews or appearances has TH demanded justice for her husband or been angry.

This is the first time I can remember where a victim didn't demand justice. It makes no sense. Why would she not want the people who did this to her punished? She is concerned with border patrol, but not with getting these murderers off the lake so it doesn't happen to someone else....pretty hypocritical to me.

If she really understands this border issue I believe she knows there will not be any justice for her husband because they will never find the people who did it nor any evidence of the crime to try them with, IMHO. She is concerned for border patrol - to get these murderers off the lake and out of the rest of the US border. Perhaps she sees the death of her husband as a political issue.....i.e. if the border were not in the state it is in, the incident would not have happened.

Would jumping up and down for heads to roll and blood to spill really help this situation? This is much bigger than just Tiffany and David Hartley, and I think she understands that. :twocents:
 

"We launched from Zapata, and we headed to this church that my husband had been researching for several months on the Mexico side. It’s just a historical church, and a year ago, they were holding mass at that church. He wanted to get some pictures before we went back to Colorado the following week. He’s a history buff, and so he was very interested in this church for its historical value,”

Researching for "several months" and he's a history buff?

Sure seems like someone could reasonably conclude that she is overselling the notion that the purpose of their trip was to see the church. Who needs several months? I could find out all I needed to know in several hours - or at most several days.

Also, did she need to add that "he's a history buff"? Was she possibly trying to add more ammunition to satisfy her critics that the church visit was legit?

Finally, I don't mean to be unjustifiably harsh, but after her many TV appearance with so little emotion, why was she suddenly showing more emotion on this taping for Dr. Phil?
 
snipped for space

Researching for "several months" and he's a history buff?

Who needs several months? I could find out all I needed to know in several hours - or at most several days.

Well, we don't know, Mike. Maybe this "true redneck boy" (Tiffany's mom's words, not mine, source: http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/10/28/hartley.falcon.lake/)

was doing in-depth research in one of the Valley's university libraries.
 
Random thought.

In one interview Tiffany said David would have always kept her safe and in another she said they had discussed what they would do if they were set upon by pirates on the lake.

Apart from THAT obvious contradiction, I wonder why, when they were pulled over by the troopers, David never mentioned that they were planning to visit the church on the Mexico side. Nope--he said, "I figure we'll just play around for a little bit."

IMO someone so concerned for his tiny dancer's safety would have told the troopers that they were planning to go take pictures at the Guerrero Viejo church on the Mexico side, and ask the trooper's opinion if they'd be safe in doing so.
 
Random thought.

In one interview Tiffany said David would have always kept her safe and in another she said they had discussed what they would do if they were set upon by pirates on the lake.

Apart from THAT obvious contradiction, I wonder why, when they were pulled over by the troopers, David never mentioned that they were planning to visit the church on the Mexico side. Nope--he said, "I figure we'll just play around for a little bit."

IMO someone so concerned for his tiny dancer's safety would have told the troopers that they were planning to go take pictures at the Guerrero Viejo church on the Mexico side, and ask the trooper's opinion if they'd be safe in doing so.

That caught my attention as well and I also wondered why David concealed their true intentions for that day...? but only David can answer that

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/11/earlyshow/main6946795.shtml

In a video shot from a police "dash-cam," the couple can be seen being pulled over shortly before getting to the lake, jet skis in tow.

The trooper can be heard asking, "Where you headed to?"

David Hartley replies, "Out to Falcon"

The trooper says, "To Falcon?"

David says, "Yeah."

The trooper says, "Going jet skiing for the day, or what?"

David can be heard saying, "Yeah, I figure we'll play around for a bit."

Johnny Hernandez, of the Texas Department of Public Safety, told CBS News, "It proves that they were together. That they were en route to Falcon Lake to enjoy the day."

Tiffany said on "The Early Show," the border patrol saw the couple several times on their way to the lake."

-----------------------------------

It means nothing to me that border patrol saw the couple several times "on the way to the lake"...they were still in the US.
 

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