GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #4

[Cool Cats]

Crumbleys want some evidence barred from Oxford shooting trial

Attorneys for the parents of the accused Oxford High shooter listed evidence they want excluded from trial because it would taint jurors’ views.

www.detroitnews.com

Among objections defense attorneys Mariell Lehman and Shannon Smith raised in legal filings this week are to exclude:

• All information about James and Jennifer Crumbley’s respective extramarital affairs, alcohol or marijuana use.
• Questionable housekeeping practices.
• Hobbies, such as horseback riding.

Parents of Oxford teen may seek to have trial moved from Oakland County

James and Jennifer Crumbley are being held on $500,000 bonds and are charged with involuntary manslaughter in connection to the Oxford High shooting.

www.detroitnews.com

Pontiac – Attorneys for the parents of a teen charged in the Nov. 30 mass shooting at Oxford High School may ask for a change of venue, they told Judge Cheryl Matthews at a pretrial hearing Tuesday.

Shannon Smith, who is representing Jennifer Crumbley, told Matthews the defense expects to file as many as 10 motions ahead of an Oct. 24 trial date on various issues, including for the release of medical or psychological records of the couple's 15-year-old son, Ethan.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Accused Oxford shooter could be called to testify in his parents' manslaughter trial

Attorneys for James and Jennifer Crumbley say their son could provide information leading to the shooting that left 4 dead at Oxford High

www.detroitnews.com

Pontiac — Oakland County Circuit Judge Cheryl Matthews on Monday rejected a request to move court proceedings out of the county in the involuntary manslaughter cases of James and Jennifer Crumbley tied to the four deaths in the Nov. 30 Oxford High shooting.

Oakland County is large enough and the population is diverse enough to guard against any pretrial publicity, Matthews said from the bench.

Defense attorneys Shannon Smith and Mariell Lehman unsuccessfully argued that the two parents wouldn't get a fair trial in the County because of intense media coverage and prejudicial comments made in the region where the Crumbleys' son, Ethan, allegedly shot and killed four students and wounded six other students and a teacher...

 

[WingsOverTX]

Crumbleys want some evidence barred from Oxford shooting trial

Attorneys for the parents of the accused Oxford High shooter listed evidence they want excluded from trial because it would taint jurors’ views.

www.detroitnews.com

Among objections defense attorneys Mariell Lehman and Shannon Smith raised in legal filings this week are to exclude:

• All information about James and Jennifer Crumbley’s respective extramarital affairs, alcohol or marijuana use.
• Questionable housekeeping practices.
• Hobbies, such as horseback riding.

Parents of Oxford teen may seek to have trial moved from Oakland County

James and Jennifer Crumbley are being held on $500,000 bonds and are charged with involuntary manslaughter in connection to the Oxford High shooting.

www.detroitnews.com

Pontiac – Attorneys for the parents of a teen charged in the Nov. 30 mass shooting at Oxford High School may ask for a change of venue, they told Judge Cheryl Matthews at a pretrial hearing Tuesday.

Shannon Smith, who is representing Jennifer Crumbley, told Matthews the defense expects to file as many as 10 motions ahead of an Oct. 24 trial date on various issues, including for the release of medical or psychological records of the couple's 15-year-old son, Ethan.

BBM
Sorry for my laughing emoji, but how absurd. Especially aggregious to want too exclude the hobby that consumed so much of their time AWAY FROM their son.

MOO

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Judge denies request to move Crumbley parents’ trial out of Oakland County

A judge denied a request by the parents of the suspected Oxford High School shooter to move their trial out of Oakland County, where they claim they won’t get a fair chance to plead their case.

www.clickondetroit.com

OXFORD, Mich. – A judge denied a request by the parents of the suspected Oxford High School shooter to move their trial out of Oakland County, where they claim they won’t get a fair chance to plead their case.

James and Jennifer Crumbley filed a motion requesting their trial be moved to another location. They said they don’t believe they will receive a fair trial in the same county where their son is accused of opening fire in the hallways of a high school, killing four people and injuring several others.

“The very widespread number of people impacted by the tragic school shooting throughout Oakland County make this case a unique set of circumstance,” their motion reads...

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

BBM
Sorry for my laughing emoji, but how absurd. Especially aggregious to want too exclude the hobby that consumed so much of their time AWAY FROM their son.

MOO

I agree. The Crumbleys' defense team wants to completely disengage the parents from their son. They want to exclude any/all evidence that suggests that they were absent, negligent, self-absorbed parents who didn't care about Ethan.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Prosecutor challenges judge’s decision to grant Crumbleys’ request to restrict pretrial publicity

A prosecutor challenged the judge’s decision Monday in court after she granted a request by the parents of the suspected Oxford High School shooter to restrict pretrial publicity.

www.clickondetroit.com

OXFORD, Mich. – A prosecutor challenged the judge’s decision Monday in court after she granted a request by the parents of the suspected Oxford High School shooter to restrict pretrial publicity.

After she denied a motion by James and Jennifer Crumbley to change the location of their trial, Oakland County Circuit Court Judge Cheryl A. Matthews granted their request to restrict pretrial publicity...

 

[WingsOverTX]

Prosecutor challenges judge’s decision to grant Crumbleys’ request to restrict pretrial publicity

A prosecutor challenged the judge’s decision Monday in court after she granted a request by the parents of the suspected Oxford High School shooter to restrict pretrial publicity.

www.clickondetroit.com

OXFORD, Mich. – A prosecutor challenged the judge’s decision Monday in court after she granted a request by the parents of the suspected Oxford High School shooter to restrict pretrial publicity.

After she denied a motion by James and Jennifer Crumbley to change the location of their trial, Oakland County Circuit Court Judge Cheryl A. Matthews granted their request to restrict pretrial publicity...

A gag order greatly benefits the defense, IMO.

Secret Justice: Gag Orders
By the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.rcfp.org/secret-justice-gag-orders&ved=2ahUKEwjC-8jKoM74AhUxJUQIHQCHBCYQFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1SQN_FHT_H7qtS1g6AIq2P

When Silence Isn’t Golden: How Gag Orders Can Evade First Amendment Protections

Trials must be conducted at law, rather than in the press, and courts sometimes feel the need to assert control of the outflow of information around judicial matters to preserve the fair trial rights of litigants.

law.yale.edu

In the 1976 case Nebraska Press Association v. Stuart, the Supreme Court created a three-part test to evaluate the constitutionality of a gag order that stopped a newspaper from publishing any confessions an accused murderer made to law enforcement: whether the publicity would harm the defendant’s right to a fair trial, whether the gag order is the least restrictive means possible to ensure that fairness, and whether the gag order will be effective.[6] Requiring a gag order to satisfy each condition, the Court said, would ensure that both the First Amendment and the Sixth Amendment would be respected.[7]

But simply because information is hidden behind a gag order does not mean that a trial court has fully considered the stringent, fact-specific test to make that gag order constitutional, or that the information is not accessible under the First Amendment. That is the difficult challenge for third party intervenors in such cases—to find where the public’s First Amendment rights have lapsed, and to bring that failure to light.

BBM & MMO

 

[Cool Cats]

School shooting suspect may testify at parents' trial

Lawyers representing the parents of a Michigan teenager charged in a high school shooting that left four of his fellow students dead said Monday that they plan to call him to testify at the couple's trial.
Defense attorney Shannon Smith told Oakland County Circuit Judge Cheryl Matthews that Ethan Crumbley's testimony would be related to “extraneous matters” and not the Nov. 30 shooting at Oxford High School.

“We need him as a witness in this trial," said Smith, who represents Jennifer Crumbley. “There are just certain questions we would just not be able to ask. We do understand that."

Smith did not say what types of questions would be asked of Ethan Crumbley. The Associated Press left a message with Smith seeking details.

 

[BUF]

School shooting suspect may testify at parents' trial

Lawyers representing the parents of a Michigan teenager charged in a high school shooting that left four of his fellow students dead said Monday that they plan to call him to testify at the couple's trial.
Defense attorney Shannon Smith told Oakland County Circuit Judge Cheryl Matthews that Ethan Crumbley's testimony would be related to “extraneous matters” and not the Nov. 30 shooting at Oxford High School.

“We need him as a witness in this trial," said Smith, who represents Jennifer Crumbley. “There are just certain questions we would just not be able to ask. We do understand that."

Smith did not say what types of questions would be asked of Ethan Crumbley. The Associated Press left a message with Smith seeking details.

I find it hard to fathom that these parents want their attorneys to call their son who was arrested for the shootings that caused people to die as a witness in their trial. This surely questions their parenting skills even further than they already have been.

moo

 

[WingsOverTX]

School shooting suspect may testify at parents' trial

Lawyers representing the parents of a Michigan teenager charged in a high school shooting that left four of his fellow students dead said Monday that they plan to call him to testify at the couple's trial.
Defense attorney Shannon Smith told Oakland County Circuit Judge Cheryl Matthews that Ethan Crumbley's testimony would be related to “extraneous matters” and not the Nov. 30 shooting at Oxford High School.

“We need him as a witness in this trial," said Smith, who represents Jennifer Crumbley. “There are just certain questions we would just not be able to ask. We do understand that."

Smith did not say what types of questions would be asked of Ethan Crumbley. The Associated Press left a message with Smith seeking details.

"Extraneous matters"? Sounds like an attempt to show to the jury the person the defense thinks should take ALL the blame.

But these parents using their kid for any advantage they can find doesn't surprise me.

How about the prosecution have a social worker talk about the neglect - especially access to a weapon.

MOO

 

[Sundog]

School shooting suspect may testify at parents' trial

Lawyers representing the parents of a Michigan teenager charged in a high school shooting that left four of his fellow students dead said Monday that they plan to call him to testify at the couple's trial.
Defense attorney Shannon Smith told Oakland County Circuit Judge Cheryl Matthews that Ethan Crumbley's testimony would be related to “extraneous matters” and not the Nov. 30 shooting at Oxford High School.

“We need him as a witness in this trial," said Smith, who represents Jennifer Crumbley. “There are just certain questions we would just not be able to ask. We do understand that."

Smith did not say what types of questions would be asked of Ethan Crumbley. The Associated Press left a message with Smith seeking details.

I'll have to go back and re-read the specific charges against the Crumbley parents, because perhaps EC is the only witness who can provide certain information that relates to a specific charge (or charges). If that is the case, then it seems that the attorneys for the Crumbley's don't have much choice but to have EC testify at his parents' trial. They are required to give the best defense possible, even if it will be difficult given the situation. That is an attorney's obligation and a defendant's right.

I do wonder, though, if EC's attorney will advise his/her client not to reply to any question that could hurt his case, and to plead the 5th.

 

[JerseyGirl]

Judge denies Crumbleys' request to move trial out of Oakland County

The Crumbleys were back in court Monday for a change of venue hearing. The judge denied it.

www.freep.com

 

[WingsOverTX]

I wonder if access to a weapon is the only evidence still admissible after this judge ruling "character testimony" inadmissible. I can understand wanting to reduce the prejudicial nature of their alcohol & drug use, but if they provided EC access to these things that is important to know.

Accused Michigan school shooter Ethan Crumbley to take stand in parents’ trial

Attorneys for James and Jennifer Crumbley said at a hearing that alleged Michigan school shooter Ethan Crumbley will testify in his parents’ involuntary manslaughter trial.

www.google.com

She found that details about how the Crumbleys allegedly kept a messy home, used marijuana and drank alcohol was irrelevant to the case and would not be admitted at trial, Detroit’s Fox 2 reported.

Similarly, Matthews threw out evidence speaking to the couple’s reported marital problems, including an alleged affair Jennifer Crumbley was having.

************************
Lest we forget (or is that the point?)

Michigan shooting suspect's parents willfully disregarded signs that their son was a threat, prosecutors say | CNN

Prosecutors in a filing say the parents of alleged Oxford High School shooter Ethan Crumbley are at a "greater risk of flight" now than when they were arraigned on involuntary manslaughter charges earlier this month and allege the couple "willfully ignored the needs and well-being of their son...

www.google.com

Active neglect should equal culpability IMO. If you remove this evidence, what was the point of charging his parents?

I think they will get off if access to the weapon is divorced from their other parental neglect. They largely provided motive, means & opportunity. Remove their responsibility for any of these three and they walk.

MOO

 

[ChatteringBirds]

The judge might be making the right decision legally. Prejudicing the jury could cause a conviction, if there is one, to be overturned later, as just happened in the (unrelated to this case) "Ross Harris Trial Appeal" case/thread.

Will Ethan's text messages to his friend be allowed? Testimony about the meeting at Ethan's school just prior to the shooting? There will still be evidence to present at trial.

ETA: Yes, they will be allowed, including:
"...their son's journal, his Instagram messages and text messages he sent a friend in which he discussed his mental health issues."

Judge denies Crumbleys' request to move trial out of Oakland County

The Crumbleys were back in court Monday for a change of venue hearing. The judge denied it.

eu.freep.com

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Could proposed Oxford shooting surprise witness backfire on parents?

The revelation came on a day when Oakland County Circuit Judge Cheryl Matthews provided a mixture of victories and defeats for the defense and prosecution.

www.detroitnews.com

Pontiac — Accused Oxford High School shooter Ethan Crumbley could be called to testify at his parents' trial for involuntary manslaughter, a prospect that one expert said is a double-edged sword for the defense.

During a Monday pretrial hearing, defense attorney Shannon Smith told the judge about the plan of possibly calling the parents' teenage son, who is facing up to life in prison after being charged with one count of terrorism causing death, four counts of first-degree murder, seven counts of assault with intent to murder and 12 counts of possession of a firearm in the commission of a felony.

"They (James and Jennifer Crumbley) aren't planning on throwing him (Ethan) under the bus," Smith told Oakland County Circuit Judge Cheryl Matthews. "But he could be called to provide information related to events leading up to the shooting...

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I'll have to go back and re-read the specific charges against the Crumbley parents, because perhaps EC is the only witness who can provide certain information that relates to a specific charge (or charges). If that is the case, then it seems that the attorneys for the Crumbley's don't have much choice but to have EC testify at his parents' trial. They are required to give the best defense possible, even if it will be difficult given the situation. That is an attorney's obligation and a defendant's right.

I do wonder, though, if EC's attorney will advise his/her client not to reply to any question that could hurt his case, and to plead the 5th.

When the notion of Ethan testifying at his parents' trial was discussed during yesterday's hearing, I wondered how Ethan's attorney would respond to this request. The parents' trial is currently scheduled for October, while Ethan's trial has been delayed until January 2023. Seems to me that the shooter could open a can of worms that might damage his own case. JMO

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I've been pondering this since I last posted. Ethan's attorney has indicated that she will mount an insanity defense for her client. If Ethan is legally insane, how can his testimony at his parents' trial be taken seriously? What if it's determined that Ethan is not competent to stand trial in his own defense? Can he still testify at his parents' trial. To date, the results of Ethan's psych evaluation have not been made public, but I'm sure his attorney is aware of the outcome. Would the results of the psychological testing impact whether or not Ethan should be allowed to testify at his parents' trial?

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Oxford High shooting survivor's parents sue officials, gun store

The federal lawsuit filed Tuesday accuses administrators and staff and gun store of negligence.

www.detroitnews.com

The parents of another teen who survived the Oxford High School shooting last year is suing administrators as well as the gun store that sold the weapon to the suspect, alleging their actions contributed to the tragedy.

"When those within systems we trust breach their duty to respond to imminent threats of gun violence with care, sensitivity and sobriety and/or to prevent prohibited or otherwise dangerous parties from acquiring firearms, mass shootings like the November 30, 2021 attack at Oxford High School are a predictable result," lawyers said in the lawsuit filed Tuesday in U.S. District Court.

The filing is on behalf of Matthew and Mary Mueller. Their son Eli, listed only as E.M. in the document, was a 14-year-old freshman when the school shooting occurred. Then-classmate Ethan Crumbley has been charged in the deaths of four students and the wounding of six others and a teacher...

 

[MrsWatson]

The recent decisions raise a lot of questions.

I would think it would be the prosecution that would call Ethan, not the defense. I can't imagine what he could say that would be positive about his parents. He'd approached both of them and indicated he was struggling and was dismissed. And the whole insanity plea, since his trial is later, could it result in an automatic appeal for his parents, if they are all convicted?

Is the defense doing this as a stunt? "Oh look at our broken son. We're not guilty, he's just broken." Do they hope to muster some sympathy?

This is MOO, but I think this parents were done with Ethan, even before the shooting. He was a big time suck for them. They knew he had problems and didn't want to deal with it. But they bought him a gun. Am I just a dark soul, that I think they didn't care if he committed suicide? Maybe it never occurred to them he'd be a school shooter instead? So many of their actions show just zero concern at all about Ethan. The fleeing, hiring private counsel while he has court appointed, etc etc etc.

Throw in the school and all those issues. The other more recent horrifying shooting in Uvalde and the gun law debates going on will also flavor the trial and the minds of the jurors.

This is a tragic case, but I think it will also set some precedents, legally.

MOO

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

The recent decisions raise a lot of questions.

I would think it would be the prosecution that would call Ethan, not the defense. I can't imagine what he could say that would be positive about his parents. He'd approached both of them and indicated he was struggling and was dismissed. And the whole insanity plea, since his trial is later, could it result in an automatic appeal for his parents, if they are all convicted?

Is the defense doing this as a stunt? "Oh look at our broken son. We're not guilty, he's just broken." Do they hope to muster some sympathy?

This is MOO, but I think this parents were done with Ethan, even before the shooting. He was a big time suck for them. They knew he had problems and didn't want to deal with it. But they bought him a gun. Am I just a dark soul, that I think they didn't care if he committed suicide? Maybe it never occurred to them he'd be a school shooter instead? So many of their actions show just zero concern at all about Ethan. The fleeing, hiring private counsel while he has court appointed, etc etc etc.

Throw in the school and all those issues. The other more recent horrifying shooting in Uvalde and the gun law debates going on will also flavor the trial and the minds of the jurors.

This is a tragic case, but I think it will also set some precedents, legally.

MOO

I don't know if I'd call it a stunt, but the notion of having Ethan testify at his parents' trial definitely rendered a "WTF!" moment in the courtroom and in the media. JMO

Excellent post, BTW