MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, shooting at Oxford High School, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents*

[scriabina]

Great question. It's heartbreaking if it was genuine. Sincere cry for help was my initial take, but who knows with a kid willing to shoot up his school? He certainly did some level of planning.

Yeah, if he knew he needed help, then why just write "help me" on an ostensibly private doodle? Why not go to someone for help or say something in the meeting at school which was soon after he drew that picture with the supposed cry for help? Or most likely did he assume once the teacher saw the picture they'd get him help... but when nothing happened and he was just told to go back to class after the meeting with the principal & his parents, he decided that was a sign he was supposed to listen to his sinister thoughts?

 

[IceIce9]

Has it been confirmed that he had a backpack at school?

I went to high school in the Mesozoic age so I have no idea what high school is like these days. Do all HS students have backpacks?

Some of the schools in the area where I live allow only clear bags or backpacks. Others don’t allow backpacks at all.

There was a school shooting in one of our schools several years ago.

I don’t know if schools in other areas allow backpacks.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

Yeah, if he knew he needed help, then why just write "help me" on an ostensibly private doodle? Why not go to someone for help or say something in the meeting at school which was soon after he drew that picture with the supposed cry for help? Or did he assume once the teacher saw the picture they'd get him help... but when nothing happened and he was just told to go back to class after the meeting with the principal & his parents, he decided that was a sign he was supposed to listen to his sinister thoughts?

he’s a mentally ill 15-year-old with parents who have seem to ignore, possibly encourage his behaviors. I think expecting him to act in an adult manner asking for help is not really reasonable, even adults don’t act responsibly when they’re in the middle of a mental episode. I think he wanted the teacher to see that drawing and it was a cry for help. The teacher did the responsible thing reporting it to the admins. I think it was a failure on the administration to send him back to the classroom. Legal action or not, that drawing was reasonable cause to take further actions. The continued lack of action could have very well been the tipping point to Ethan saying this is really going to happen MOO

 

[IceIce9]

I was very happy to hear the news this morning! Especially since no officers or others were injured while apprehended them. Knowing they the parents had weapons I was worried that they would come out with guns blazing.

 

[MrsWatson]

Very relieved to see the parents taken into custody without further bloodshed.

Re the backpack: Somewhere up tread, it was noted that lockers in the school were not being used due to Covid protocols so students were using backpacks.

When my son was in HS in Indianapolis, the only backbacks they were allowed were the string type ones. Very flimsy, more like a tote bag that you can wear on your back. Easy to see the outline of everything inside. I'm wondering if the students at Oxford were allowed regular backpacks, since they weren't using lockers and no doubt had lots of stuff to carry around.

 

[scriabina]

he’s a mentally ill 15-year-old with parents who have seem to ignore, possibly encourage his behaviors. I think expecting him to act in an adult manner asking for help is not really reasonable, even adults don’t act responsibly when they’re in the middle of a mental episode. I think he wanted the teacher to see that drawing and it was a cry for help. The teacher did the responsible thing reporting it to the admins. I think it was a failure on the administration to send him back to the classroom. Legal action or not, that drawing was reasonable cause to take further actions. The continued lack of action could have very well been the tipping point to Ethan saying this is really going to happen MOO

yeah, I agree that is the most likely scenario. I'm sure somewhere in his mind he was shocked he was just sent back to class after drawing that picture and meeting with the principal & his parents. He figured his parents would easily figure out he had a gun considering the timeline, the drawing and the new gun purchase; and when they showed no concern for him and refused to take him home, he probably took that as his parents giving him "permission" or even encouragement to go on a shooting spree. I think the parents are much more to blame than a mentally ill 15 yr old.

 

[MrsWatson]

James, Jennifer Crumbley arrested in Detroit after car found

The Crumbleys were found hiding inside and were "distressed" White said. They were unarmed.

Includes picture of the building and area.

 

[mickey2942]

I am glad to see that these parents are being held accountable. INMO, this is clearly laid out for the prosecution.

 

[MrsWatson]

Video includes the arrest

Exclusive video shows arrest of Crumbley parents - CNN Video

 

[Emerald1328]

In my opinion, these parents had absolutely no concern for their son’s own personal well-being. If they weren’t concerned for the safety of other students when they saw the drawing, why were they not at least concerned for his mental health? Did they at least not think he might want to shoot himself when they saw the drawing with the words “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.”

I am also a bit puzzled at the school’s behavior, which is based on a personal experience I had with my own child. When my son was in 2nd grade (yes, 2nd grade), I got a call from the principal that I needed to pick him up immediately - he had just punched his teacher. When I picked him up, I was informed that if it happened again, there may be one of two consequences. Either they would call an ambulance and take him to a local mental health hospital or he would be expelled. I completely understood where they were coming from. My son has ADHD and oppositional defiant disorder and even at that time he was medicated, in therapy and regularly had appointments at a developmental clinic. The school was aware of this and even had him seeing the school counselor. Not because he was ever aggressive, but because he could be a difficult child. I came to find out that that day was the one (and only time) he threw his medication into the garbage in the morning so the impulse control from ADHD mixed with his ODD made for a powder-keg situation.

In light of what we know about the meeting with the parents though, I can’t help but wonder what the school would have done if I hadn’t picked him up. Would they have made good on their threats or would they have given him another chance because it was his first “offense”? I don’t think the searching for ammunition is egregious on its own, but coupled with the picture the next day, would they have had the power to expel him or get him immediate help? Or did they have to give them a first warning of that (which probably didn’t come after the ammunition search and doesn’t sound like it even could have come if the parents didn’t respond to the school’s request to discuss it) before they could proceed?

 

[everybodhi]

he’s a mentally ill 15-year-old with parents who have seem to ignore, possibly encourage his behaviors. I think expecting him to act in an adult manner asking for help is not really reasonable, even adults don’t act responsibly when they’re in the middle of a mental episode. I think he wanted the teacher to see that drawing and it was a cry for help. The teacher did the responsible thing reporting it to the admins. I think it was a failure on the administration to send him back to the classroom. Legal action or not, that drawing was reasonable cause to take further actions. The continued lack of action could have very well been the tipping point to Ethan saying this is really going to happen MOO

Regarding legal action towards the administration being lax in their response to the information they had been given, I think there won’t be criminal charges because a jury’s “reasonable doubt” makes a costly trial not worth it, but by the lessor standard of a “preponderance of the evidence”, the civil suits inevitably coming against the school are a slam dunk. Insurance will pay dearly.
Jmo.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

yeah, I agree that is the most likely scenario. I'm sure somewhere in his mind he was shocked he was just sent back to class after drawing that picture and meeting with the principal & his parents. He figured his parents would easily figure out he had a gun considering the timeline, the photo and the new gun purchase; and when they showed no concern for him and refused to take him home, he probably took that as his parents giving him "permission" or even encouragement to go on a shooting spree. I think the parents are much more to blame than a mentally ill 15 yr old.

100%, glad the parents are being charged, glad they ran so there is no debate about the type of parents they are and now will have more charges to face. It makes me wonder if there’s more incriminating evidence against them otherwise it is so difficult to wrap your brain around parents who abandon their child, not willing to help them navigate through something like this. It’s like "oh well he’s done for, we might as well try to save ourselves". MOO

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

Regarding legal action towards the administration being lax in their response to the information they had been given, I think there won’t be criminal charges because a jury’s “reasonable doubt” makes a costly trial not worth it, but by the lessor standard of a “preponderance of the evidence”, the civil suits inevitably coming against the school are a slam dunk. Insurance will pay dearly.
Jmo.

I agree, I don’t see criminal charges, don’t know if those are warranted, but I will never be convinced that they didn’t have reasonable cause to take further action after being presented with that drawing, witnessing the failures of the parents, the admins were the next in line that were able to take action. They are tasked with the very difficult responsibility of keeping our kids safe in an ever increasing difficult environment but that drawing was not a “maybe, wait and see “ situation.

 

[mooseandcoffee]

In my opinion, these parents had absolutely no concern for their son’s own personal well-being. If they weren’t concerned for the safety of other students when they saw the drawing, why were they not at least concerned for his mental health? Did they at least not think he might want to shoot himself when they saw the drawing with the words “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.”

I am also a bit puzzled at the school’s behavior, which is based on a personal experience I had with my own child. When my son was in 2nd grade (yes, 2nd grade), I got a call from the principal that I needed to pick him up immediately - he had just punched his teacher. When I picked him up, I was informed that if it happened again, there may be one of two consequences. Either they would call an ambulance and take him to a local mental health hospital or he would be expelled. I completely understood where they were coming from. My son has ADHD and oppositional defiant disorder and even at that time he was medicated, in therapy and regularly had appointments at a developmental clinic. The school was aware of this and even had him seeing the school counselor. Not because he was ever aggressive, but because he could be a difficult child. I came to find out that that day was the one (and only time) he threw his medication into the garbage in the morning so the impulse control from ADHD mixed with his ODD made for a powder-keg situation.

In light of what we know about the meeting with the parents though, I can’t help but wonder what the school would have done if I hadn’t picked him up. Would they have made good on their threats or would they have given him another chance because it was his first “offense”? I don’t think the searching for ammunition is egregious on its own, but coupled with the picture the next day, would they have had the power to expel him or get him immediate help? Or did they have to give them a first warning of that (which probably didn’t come after the ammunition search and doesn’t sound like it even could have come if the parents didn’t respond to the school’s request to discuss it) before they could proceed?

I'm wondering if the text from Mom to son after the shooting--"Don't do it"-- was more about a possible suicide attempt?

 

[steeltowngirl]

BBM below. My question is why is it impossible to prevent guns from coming into schools? When I attend a concert or sports event, I can’t take a bag, and I’m searched. The courthouse and airport have metal detectors. It’s an expensive solution, but not impossible. JMO

Shannon Watts, founder of Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, said school officials should have searched Mr. Crumbley’s bag for weapons.

But she said that the steps to prevent gun violence begin far before someone brings a weapon onto school grounds. Ultimately it is lawmakers, not school officials, she argued, who have the power to prevent shootings by passing secure gun storage laws or red flag laws, which allow the police to temporarily confiscate firearms from people who are deemed by a judge to be a danger to themselves or others.

“You’re putting educators in an impossible position because they don’t really have the tools to proactively prevent guns from coming into the school,” Ms. Watts said.

In the Michigan Shooting, What Is the School’s Responsibility?

 

[Facinatingtimes]

I wonder if the parents stick together through this, or if one flips on the other. “I wanted to get EC help/take EC out of school/not get a gun, but he/she manipulated me!”

 

[mooseandcoffee]

BBM below. My question is why is it impossible to prevent guns from coming into schools? When I attend a concert or sports event, I can’t take a bag, and I’m searched. The courthouse and airport have metal detectors. It’s an expensive solution, but not impossible. JMO

Shannon Watts, founder of Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, said school officials should have searched Mr. Crumbley’s bag for weapons.

But she said that the steps to prevent gun violence begin far before someone brings a weapon onto school grounds. Ultimately it is lawmakers, not school officials, she argued, who have the power to prevent shootings by passing secure gun storage laws or red flag laws, which allow the police to temporarily confiscate firearms from people who are deemed by a judge to be a danger to themselves or others.

“You’re putting educators in an impossible position because they don’t really have the tools to proactively prevent guns from coming into the school,” Ms. Watts said.

In the Michigan Shooting, What Is the School’s Responsibility?

Who is responsible for funding metal detectors in all schools? The district? The individual states?

 

[Cinna]

Sorry if this has already been discussed -- haven't quite caught up in the thread -- but I am wondering, when he says "the thoughts won't stop. help me"

1) are we to interpret that to mean he is hearing voices telling him to kill other children and is genuinely reaching out for help?

or...

2) did he deliberately draw that picture with that text anticipating he would shoot up the school, feigning "hearing voices," and setting the stage for an orchestrated insanity defense?

Since the parents obviously have neglected their son's mental health, I'm guessing he wasn't ever seen by a psychiatrist.

I think he meant exactly what he said. He was having thoughts that he knew were wrong. Yet he couldn't stop thinking about them. If anything, I think it proves he knew right from wrong at the time of the shooting.

If he was hearing voices he would have said so.

MOO

 

[Emerald1328]

I'm wondering if the text from Mom to son after the shooting--"Don't do it"-- was more about a possible suicide attempt?

I think you’re right. But dang, why couldn’t they have been concerned about suicide that morning when they were in the office with him, rather than after he murdered 4 classmates and injured several more?

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

I wonder if the parents stick together through this, or if one flips on the other. “I wanted to get EC help/take EC out of school/not get a gun, but he/she manipulated me!”

I bet they turn on each other, "save yourself" seems to be how they operate