MI - Alexandria, 8, & Ashley Kukla, 5, stabbed to death, Macomb, 4 Feb 2007

[JinxieJada]

I keep thinking it's ANOTHER story where this has happened =(

 

[southcitymom]

This isn't a case where mental illness applies. This is straight up evil.

She was hearing voices. Most professionals consider that a sign of mental illness and I would say that many cases I read where parents randomly kill their children have this hearing voices component.

Seems to me this is clearly mental illness.

 

[southcitymom]

Wouldn't it be something if a parent who murders children committed suicide first?

For reasons unknown to me, the voices never seem to suggest THAT, do they?!

 

[JinxieJada]

I've lost both of my parents to suicide, and we all thought why didn't he (my dad) take out the SOB that caused my mom to do it? But..what I was told by several therapists is that it's a one track thing...

Where I'm going with this, is..

Is it possible for someone to "break" and with full intention of killing themselves after whatever horrific thing they did, and yet not have the "energy" for lack of a better word?

I know after a horrible crying spell or something similiar the only thing I want to do is sleep/vegetate etc...So if one is that caught up in the moment and is raging is it possible that she just couldn't go any further?

I'm not trying to excuse, justify etc what this woman has done, simply trying to figure out the hows and the why's.

 

[GlitchWizard]

Jinxie- You hit the nail on the head. I know a guy who strangled a 5 year old girl (years ago) but stopped in the middle of it. He was going to kill her so he'd have the guts to kill himself. He stopped, made sure she was going to be (relatively) okay and her mother would find her - then split and didn't kill himself. He was put in a facility for many years afterwards before he went to trail for another crime and the girl (then a teenager) flipped him off.

He said he was secretly happy that she had the gumption to flip him off because he knew that meant she had dealt with the emotions and could face him like that.

Anyway - it does take incredible energy to harm someone else that you care about, and then you are too drained to kill yourself. While this is how it can work, I still don't get WHY it's that way. It seems intuitive that if you killed someone you loved, that you'd be even more distraught and want to end your own life. I guess it's not, but it seems like it should be.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I've lost both of my parents to suicide, and we all thought why didn't he (my dad) take out the SOB that caused my mom to do it? But..what I was told by several therapists is that it's a one track thing...

Where I'm going with this, is..

Is it possible for someone to "break" and with full intention of killing themselves after whatever horrific thing they did, and yet not have the "energy" for lack of a better word?

I know after a horrible crying spell or something similiar the only thing I want to do is sleep/vegetate etc...So if one is that caught up in the moment and is raging is it possible that she just couldn't go any further?

I'm not trying to excuse, justify etc what this woman has done, simply trying to figure out the hows and the why's.

I'm sorry about your parents Jada. I'm no expert, but we've heard of other cases where the perp "claimed" that they had intended suicide but couldn't carry it out, but I have my doubts. I think that most of them are cowards and while they could hurt children they didn't have the balls to hurt themselves. Names that come to mind are Darlie Routier and Susan Smith, but there are others.

 

[s_finch]

She was hearing voices. Most professionals consider that a sign of mental illness and I would say that many cases I read where parents randomly kills their children have this hearing voices component.

Seems to me this is clearly mental illness.

She clearly could have been delusional, but then again the "I was hearing voices" defense works so well, why not use it? A guy close to here stabbed his dad and step-mom to death (they fought back, really a gory scene) and his defense was literally "the devil and I made a bargain and he promised I wouldn't get caught if I committed these acts"---the perp said the devil literally sat in his room and discussed this with him before he committed the murders. Now I personally do believe satan exists and works his evil, but whether that was the case in this situation or whether the perp was using it as a defense I dont' know, but I do know he's on death row here, no possibility of parole. IOW, the defense strategy didn't work for him.

 

[GlitchWizard]

Has anyone ever heard of voices in your head telling you to volunteer at a homeless shelter or is it always something awful?

 

[JinxieJada]

I couldn't figure out how to quote (brain freeze lol) but someone had mentioned about the person who stabbed his parents and stated the devil and he made a bargain. This is another one that seems to be used ALL the time. I belong to a literacy for prisoners program and one of the participants was talking to me about why he was in there etc. And stated he too made a "pact with the devil" Stated he had it all, the women, the lifestyle, money etc. He met a woman who was very involved with religion and he "found god". He stated when he started "walking the right way" is when everything came crashing down on him. To this day he still believes if he wouldn't have found religion he would be living the high life.

Is he mentally ill? Not according to the dr's, nor according to himself. He just believes that he made a bad choice. In his defense (for lack of a better word) His crimes were not the violent terrible sort against women, children etc. (White collar stuff)

Are these people sure that the "voices" they are hearing isn't their conscious asking "WHAT THE *advertiser censored** ARE YOU DOING?"

On another note...Here is an update about what community members (and i"m sure from elsewhere too) have put together so far for the family.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/10953197/detail.html
Macomb Township, Mich. -- Donations are pouring into a memorial fund for two young girls found stabbed to death.Macomb County Sheriff Mark Hackel said clergy members, funeral homes, flower shops and the public have stepped forward to help. A local bank set up the memorial fund. Roughly $5,000 has been collected so far.

Jennifer Kukla faces two counts of first-degree murder in the slayings of her daughters.

Police discovered the bodies Sunday inside their Macomb Township mobile home.Funeral services are set for Saturday morning in Shelby Township.



Does anyone know if she will be allowed to attend the funeral?

Here is the little bit of booking info Macomb County Jail has put up about her.

http://www.vinelink.com/offender/detail.jsp?siteID=23005&offenderSID=30718469

 

[southcitymom]

She clearly could have been delusional, but then again the "I was hearing voices" defense works so well, why not use it? A guy close to here stabbed his dad and step-mom to death (they fought back, really a gory scene) and his defense was literally "the devil and I made a bargain and he promised I wouldn't get caught if I committed these acts"---the perp said the devil literally sat in his room and discussed this with him before he committed the murders. Now I personally do believe satan exists and works his evil, but whether that was the case in this situation or whether the perp was using it as a defense I dont' know, but I do know he's on death row here, no possibility of parole. IOW, the defense strategy didn't work for him.

I hear you. But as a general rule, I think time and psychiatrists can usually tell if a person is truly delusional and not just faking it. Not always, of course, but most of the time.

Just to clarify my position, I do believe some parents kill their children and there is NOT a mental illness issue. However, in this case - there may very well be.

 

[csds703]

Has anyone ever heard of voices in your head telling you to volunteer at a homeless shelter or is it always something awful?

This cracked me up!

 

[Dalilah]

My daughter's mental illness can cause her to be delusional and hear voices when under stress. She has stated that they never tell her anything "good" or "positive" but the voices do attempt to convince her to hurt herself or others. It is scary. It is terrifying to see my dear child in this delusional state as she doesn't even look much like my daughter. I don't believe in a devil or anything like that, but I suppose those who do might say she looks possessed.

Wouldn't it be great if the voices told her to study hard, do the dishes and give mummy hugs and kisses?

 

[Jeana (DP)]

My daughter's mental illness can cause her to be delusional and hear voices when under stress. She has stated that they never tell her anything "good" or "positive" but the voices do attempt to convince her to hurt herself or others. It is scary. It is terrifying to see my dear child in this delusional state as she doesn't even look much like my daughter. I don't believe in a devil or anything like that, but I suppose those who do might say she looks possessed.

Wouldn't it be great if the voices told her to study hard, do the dishes and give mummy hugs and kisses?

I'm sorry that your family is going through that situation. It must be terrifying for her. Can you say how old she is?

 

[Dalilah]

I'm sorry that your family is going through that situation. It must be terrifying for her. Can you say how old she is?

Thanks Jeana. She is 14 years old...she'll be 15 in May. On Monday, we moved her to her new treatment center in Richmond. It is a step up from the last one and a half hour closer to home than the last one. Her new psychiatrist is well-published and very knowledgeable of the treatment(s) for her illness and disorders, so we're feeling a bit more hopeful.

 

[southcitymom]

Thanks Jeana. She is 14 years old...she'll be 15 in May. On Monday, we moved her to her new treatment center in Richmond. It is a step up from the last one and a half hour closer to home than the last one. Her new psychiatrist is well-published and very knowledgeable of the treatment(s) for her illness and disorders, so we're feeling a bit more hopeful.

Bless you heart, Dalilah. That must be tough. I am so glad she is in good psychiatric hands.

 

[Dalilah]

Bless you heart, Dalilah. That must be tough. I am so glad she is in good psychiatric hands.

Thank you.

 

[s_finch]

I hear you. But as a general rule, I think time and psychiatrists can usually tell if a person is truly delusional and not just faking it. Not always, of course, but most of the time.

Just to clarify my position, I do believe some parents kill their children and there is NOT a mental illness issue. However, in this case - there may very well be.

I completely agree with you, SCMom!

 

[s_finch]

Jada, I'm sorry you had to endure that with both your parents, how sad for you.

And Dalilah, I'm sorry to hear about your daughter's problems. I do pray she will get better.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Thanks Jeana. She is 14 years old...she'll be 15 in May. On Monday, we moved her to her new treatment center in Richmond. It is a step up from the last one and a half hour closer to home than the last one. Her new psychiatrist is well-published and very knowledgeable of the treatment(s) for her illness and disorders, so we're feeling a bit more hopeful.

Thanks for the info. Ya'll will be in my thoughts. I pray that treatment helps.

 

[JinxieJada]

Jada, I'm sorry you had to endure that with both your parents, how sad for you.

Thanks..long story..my dad's is clear cut (he lasted a little over a year after my mom passed)..but my mom's is still an open investigation, I've gotten the reports as well as the crime scene photos and noone thinks it was a suicide. Messes with my head at times, but she was an 42 years old and made her own decisions regardless of what happened that day.