MI MI - JOHN NORMAN COLLINS Co-Ed Murders 1967-69, Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti

[Winward1]

Posting with a correction:

Regarding the case of Roxie Ann Phillips having similarities to the Michigan Coed cases and Thoresen living in California at that time and receiving no pushback now when argued to be Zodiac, you will find uncanny connections between certain murders and his movements around the country.

Zodiac, the Michigan Coed Murders and massacres like the Robison family in 1968 are to name but a few. Because of this, upon his death in June '70, there is reason to believe a substantial coverup began.

That said consider, when recalling the birth of her child, in early June, 1962, Thoresen's wife said she knew her husband had been going to Los Angeles "for many months." Two months prior to this, that April, you have the Zodiac-like murder of cabbie Ray Davis in Oceanside, CA and then a string of murders (some double murders) and the Bates murder.

People get hung up on the letters and ciphers but what actually made Zodiac different? In three out of four attacks he chose to attack more than one person at a time, and in one of them it was under the guise of a robbery where the victims were tied up.

Thoresen moved to Arizona on April 8, 1960. Where from? Chicago. In my books I disclosed that he was a suspect in the dismemberment murder of Judith Mae Anderson in August, 1957, when he was about 17. Consider that I have his hometown police record. I know what was going on between him, his family and the cops in the mid fifties.

He had a particularly rocky time in 1955, when he was 15 or 16. Let me sum it up for you: He was pissed (and not in the English sense.) I know just what days, too. So what did Zodiac sometimes do? Attack multiple people (a really rare MO for random killings in those days.)

So what happened during this particularly rocky time for him in 1955 in Chicago? Three boys (Robert Peterson and the Schuessler brothers) were murdered, a triple murder. They were tied up. At least one was bludgeoned with fists and, it was presumed by some, at least one of them may have been whipped with a belt like some of the Michigan Coed victims.

When Thoresen met his wife in January, 1958, he had a broken hand. Ten bucks he broke it bludgeoning someone.

Like some of the Michigan Coed victims, the boys' bodies were left near a paved surface where they were soon discovered. Then, a little more than a year later, a similar double slaying near Chicago occurred, the Grimes sisters. According to a source, the sisters were last seen with a suspect who had a strange way of speaking (not unlike Zodiac.)

Thoresen struggled with a significant stuttering issue. There wasn't a lot to the description but it sounds not unlike Thoresen. Like numerous Michigan Coed Murder victims, the sister's bodies were left at the side of the road. The sister's mother was later tormented by a caller who knew details of the crimes no one but the killer would have known. Zodiac was known for using the phone as well.

He moved to Arizona in April, 1960. Three weeks earlier, however, three women were bludgeoned to death at Starved Rock State Park, an hour something's drive south of Chicago. Like at least one of the Michigan Coed Murders victims, a tree branch was used in the assault on the women. Like at Lake Berryessa and the Peterson-Schuessler murders (and, if I'm not mistaken, the Grimes sisters), the women had been tied up. It's not hard to imagine it was under the guise of a robbery.

Police set up a road block a day or two after the murders. A trucker, I believe it was, told them he saw the women talking with a guy and his description is a dead ringer for William Thoresen, down to his wavy, reddish-brown hair. What stood out to police at the time was the witnesses' description of the women.

After Thoresen moved away, these double and triple slayings in the Chicago area ceased.

Like with Collins, they put a guy in jail for the Starved Rock Murders. He always denied it and it seems there wasn't much to his conviction. As with Collins, it seemed he had not the motive nor the background of someone who would have killed the women.

He said it ruined his life. They just released him a few years ago. He was like 80. Earlier, they made up some story about not being able to test DNA in his case (sounds like the Zodiac letters.) Yeah, sure. Also, decades after the boy's murders, they convicted another guy for the Peterson-Schuessler case. He denied it. And that one sounds like total B.S. to me, nothing more than a story.

Consider this when you think of Collins and what all when on during his trial. Do I think four innocent guys went to jail for murders Thoresen committed? You betcha. Do I think Thoresen committed them all? You betcha. Do I think, after he was killed, this all was covered up (and many more murders it looks like after Thoresen committed?) You betcha. Have I seen evidence that the coverup has continued in recent years? There are examples of it in my latest book.

Last edited: Today at 8:50 PM

 

[Richard]

Chester Rocky Weger was convicted of killing Mildred Lindquist, age 50, one of three women found dead in the Starved Rock park. He was never tried for the deaths of Lillian Oetting, 50, or Frances Murphy, 47. All were killed on 3 March 1960.

A key clue to investigators was the type of twine that the killer used to tie the victims. The twine used was a fairly rare 20 strand variety and it matched exactly the twine used on an earlier rape victim. When that victim was shown a photo line-up which included Weger's photo, she immediately identified him as her assailant.

Weger was sentenced to death in his first trial. He was granted a second trial and again convicted of murder, but was sentenced to life in prison at the second trial.

Here is a link to the websleuths thread on the Starved Rock murders:

IL - IL - Starved Rock State Park Murders of three women, 4 March 1960

 

[Winward1]

Coverup.

 

[Richard]

Coverup.

The news article (not related to John Norman Collins), is far from proof that Chester Rocky Weger was innocent of the Starved Rock murders. It reports that over time, all clothing in evidence was stored together and that therefore any DNA testing (as requested by his lawyers in 2004) would be inaccurate.

Weger was eventually granted parole in 2019, but not because his conviction had been overturned.

In spite of what Weger claims now about his "innocence", he actually did confess to the murders back in 1961, and described in detail how he committed them. By the time of his trials, he recanted the confession.

The newspaper article errs in stating that Weger was convicted of the murder of Lillian Oetting. He was not. Weger was convicted of killing Mildred Lindquist, age 50.

At his first trial, Weger was officially charged with only the one murder. He did not testify during the trial and was found guilty and sentenced to death. With the death penalty, prosecutors declined to charge him with the other two murders (Lillian Oetting, 50 and Frances Murphy, 47) and the earlier rape which initially connected him to the Starved Rock case.

 

[Winward1]

As with Collins, I don't see Weger having the motive or background to commit the Starved Rock Murders. I also don't put a lot of value on confessions from the days when they were beaten out suspects by guys who were, more often than not, recruited out of the trucking industry. The fact that the women were last seen with a guy who fit Thoresen's description, down to his uncommon hair color, I find more incriminating than anything about Weger. While not connected to Collins, there are numerous reasons to believe Thoresen was the Michigan Coed Killer, including the Honda 350, Collins' general description being identical to Thorsesen's, and the vehicle seen at the last sighting of Fleszar sounding a lot like the one at Lake Berryessa, which was driven by a guy who, as described in detail, could not have sounded more like Thoresen. There was also the use of tree branches against victims in the Michigan Coed case and Starved Rock State Park.

 

[Richard]

Here is a link to a three part article written at the time of the 50 year anniversary of the Michigan Coed murders:

Michigan Murders: 50 years ago, terror reigned in Ypsilanti

 

[Winward1]

Given the low standing of the mainstream media at present, and the inexplicable shenanigans that went down at Collins' trail, I would take the above as propaganda, not news. What's more, there have been all kinds of misleading, if not outright lies, in the broadcast media regarding the Zodiac case. Given the reasons to think the same killer was behind both cases is double reason to be wary "anniversary" stories on these cases.

 

[Richard]

Given the low standing of the mainstream media at present, and the inexplicable shenanigans that went down at Collins' trail, I would take the above as propaganda, not news. What's more, there have been all kinds of misleading, if not outright lies, in the broadcast media regarding the Zodiac case. Given the reasons to think the same killer was behind both cases is double reason to be wary "anniversary" stories on these cases.

Your regard for today's "mainstream" media and the current abundance of biased and fake news stories is completely understandable. It is certainly more prevalent (and obvious) on a wide scale since 2016.

The articles that I linked above, however, are a very close and accurate reporting of the case as it was covered fifty years previous by a (then) more reputable and reliable news media. Even back in the 1960's reporters misquoted, misrepresented, and misinterpreted the news, and this is mentioned in the 2019 articles.

The 2019 articles do, however, leave out some of the story as it appeared in 1969. For instance, it seems to "update" the victim count to say that there were "5 murdered girls and one missing" when speaking of Karen Sue Beineman's disappearance (and subsequent murder). Back in 1969, the murder of Jane Mixer was always included in the count, as were (from time to time) the murders of Margaret Phillips and Eileen Marie Adams. All of those were later attributed to other, separate killers.

I often think back to the live coverage of the Reagan assassination attempt when conflicting reports were reaching news anchor Frank Reynolds and he blew up on air at the news team, shouting "Get it right!!"

 

[Winward1]

Reading the Keyes book on this case it seems, when they went to the motorcycle shop to interview the employees about Collin's visit on the day in question, three different witnesses gave slightly different answers.

Rather than conduct the investigation in an unbiased way, one can see that they were assuming that the witness who gave them the answer they didn't hear was wrong (rather than one of both of the other witnesses were not recalling the time Collins was there correctly.) From there they went to hassling the witness (or witnesses) who didn't give them the answer(s) they wanted to hear.

Who (other than overzealous prosectors) runs an investigation this way?—without anything concrete besides the suspect (not his bike) fit the witnesses' description? (And his background has nothing remotely in it that equals what happened to the victim during the crime.)

 

[Richard]

The investigators in these murders were not a completely united group. There were at least five different (and somewhat overlapping) jurisdictions involved. There was competition and miscommunication involved which complicated things, and caused mistakes and missed opportunities to occur.

Collins, Manuel, and Davis became aware that they were being considered as possible suspects, and were at some point under close observation. This caused Manuel to flee the state (and by his statement to get rid of a pistol), and Collins to (according to Davis) get rid of a box of possible evidence.

Collins had time and opportunity to thoroughly clean his Oldsmobile, a camping trailer in California, and a knife that he gave to Davis. It was also proven that he cleaned up the alleged crime scene in the basement of his uncle's house.

Collins was initially taken into custody by two rookie officers who were improperly briefed before lead investigators were ready to interview him. This brought his mother into the picture and, in turn, defense lawyers. The result was that Collins refused to speak with investigators from that point on.

A couple of things have to be remembered in regard to this case.

First is that the community was in a state of fear due to the series of murders taking place. This had to be stopped, and police were under extreme pressure to do so.

Second is that this was far from the usual murder case investigation faced by local law enforcement at the time. Normal investigative procedure would have been to determine a motive, round up the usual suspects, and grill them until somebody broke. Police were not used to dealing with this type of crime, and investigative techniques which were common at the time might not work to solve this case.

There were no "serial killer experts" in 1969 at the Michigan State Police or FBI who could even advise.

When it comes to eyewitness testimony, it has to be the least accurate of all evidence. Memories change and fade. Ask anyone in any place of business if a certain person came into their store at 1:30 pm on a date last week, and you will get as many opinions and estimates as you have people working there.

Now, a dated receipt would be a whole different matter. Or time dated surveillance camera footage, or a parking ticket from that time and location, etc. But conflicting memories which were several days old?

John Norman Collins' initial alibi stories were constructed around his stated memory of where he went and did on that fateful day, 23 July 1969. Which is why investigators were trying so hard to prove or disprove his statements.

If Collins WAS their man, they wanted to get him off the streets and locked up. If he WAS NOT the killer, they needed to rule him out and find the killer. Time was a major element driving their investigation.

Collins stated that on 23 July 1969, he was riding his motorcycle in Ypsilanti around noon, went to the motorcycle shop to pay a bill at 1:30, went to a hamburger shop for lunch and then arrived at his residence by 2:30 pm, at which time, he gave his room mate Arnold Davis a motorcycle riding lesson. He then spent the rest of the day watching TV with Davis and Manuel.

The obvious questions were: Was Collins, in fact the guy last seen with Karen Sue Beineman? And did he have time to murder her at any point in the day during the times and places he says he went?

 

[Winward1]

"First is that the community was in a state of fear due to the series of murders taking place. This had to be stopped, and police were under extreme pressure to do so."

The perfect scenario for a case of overzealous prosecution.

 

[Winward1]

"There were no 'serial killer experts' in 1969 at the Michigan State Police or FBI who could even advise."

This is why one could pass off a guy like Collins as a killer to a jury. Today he wouldn't have been indicted, let alone tried.

"The obvious questions were: Was Collins, in fact the guy last seen with Karen Sue Beineman?"

Obviously not or the Ann Arbor cops wouldn't have felt the need to harass a defense witness. Because they did it is natural to presume they did the same to get Mrs. Wig Shop to change her story (though had no explanation for it. Good thing Collins' mom mortgaged her house for decent lawyers. So we know the truth now.)

"If Collins WAS their man..." they would have had something on him for at least some of the other murders.

There's no way a college kid pulled of six perfect crimes only to drive his victim into the middle of town in broad daylight like no one there knew him. That only works for a guy like Thoresen. That is the kind of audacity you see in Zodiac, not a 21-year-old education major with no priors.

By 1969, Thoresen had been getting away with murder for at least 14 years because, in those days, there were no serial killer experts, metro area task forces and a hundred other things. And because Thoresen was an extremely disciplined killer who worked at it full time.

 

[Winward1]

Regarding Richard's comment on the FBI it is clear, from their reports that by December, 1966, they suspected Thoresen of killing Valerie Percy.

Yet in 1973, by admission of one of their retired Chicago agents, in his memoirs, they planted a story that was run nonetheless in Chicago newspapers that implied (like Collins killing Beineman) that an unlikely suspect or suspect killed Percy in an implausible scenario. And the source for the story was already dead.

One has to wonder, why after Thoresen had been dead for three years (and Percy for seven) the FBI would be spending time on this. Meanwhile, just five years ago, authorities in both Illinois and Florida, where there are reasons to suspect Thoresen committed numerous horrific unsolved murders, acted to thwart investigations into the related cases. (The details are published in my latest book.)

In Illinois a lawyer simply wanted to see old case records, the kind of things that have long been released to outside investigators in other cases. But even the memos sent around to the various agencies involved in the suit at the time were almost entirely redacted. What could possibly warrant this much secrecy a half century later? Could it be that Thoresen was Zodiac, the Michigan CoEd Killer and a whole lot more but the feds just want Collins to die in jail and it all to go away?

 

[Richard]

"First is that the community was in a state of fear due to the series of murders taking place. This had to be stopped, and police were under extreme pressure to do so."

The perfect scenario for a case of overzealous prosecution.

I think that you mean overzealous police investigation. While the County District Attorney probably wanted to get the killer as much as anyone else, he did not run the investigations taking place. At least not the day-to-day police work being done to investigate and solve the cases.

His job really began after Collins was identified as a suspect. Certainly, he had a hand in the deals made with Davis and Manuel (questionable deals to be sure) but by then Collins was behind bars awaiting charges.

 

[Richard]

While there are many reasons that various government agencies could give for NOT releasing information or records, it really boils down to an over riding one: They just don't want to. It would require someone to do some work or worse yet, make a decision. There are, of course, stringent agency rules regarding records release.

Law Enforcement agencies always have the blanket reason that it is an open case with an "ongoing" investigation. And in many ways, this is true. The Percy case, for instance, is officially unsolved and therefore the investigation is ongoing. The reports might include the names of confidential sources, unnamed potential suspects, or other sensitive material.

One could argue that after 50 years, what's the harm? In fact, releasing old case information to the public could actually lead to the case being solved. But if they set a precedent with one case, then the door is open to other requests - and that is something that could lead to legal problems.

 

[Richard]

Reading the Keyes book on this case it seems, when they went to the motorcycle shop to interview the employees about Collin's visit on the day in question, three different witnesses gave slightly different answers....

The Keyes book you mention, The Michigan Murders, was the first book to go into detail into what was a the time called "The Coed Murders". It is a very well written account which keeps the reader's attention throughout.

While the author sticks to facts of the actual case, he does change the names of the victims, suspects, and witnesses. Here is a key to some of those names for anyone who would like to read the book today and understand who he is talking about:

Name in the book: ....... Real name:

James Armstrong ....... John Norman Collins

Marilyn Pindar ....... Mary Fleszar

Jill Hersh ....... Joan Schell

Jeanne Holder ....... Jane Mixer

Mary Grace Clemson ....... Maralynn Skelton

Dale Harum ....... Dawn Basom

Audrey Sakol ....... Alison Kalom

Carol Ann Gebhardt ....... Karen Sue Beineman

Ginger Lee Neary ....... Roxie Ann Phillips

Elizabeth Peters ....... Margaret Phillips

Edgar Hatton, Jr. ....... Ernest R. Bishop, Jr.

Tony Monte ....... Andrew Julian Manuel

Donald Baker ....... Arnold (Arne) Davis


Reference:

Keyes, Edward (1976). The Michigan Murders. Reader's Digest Press. ISBN 978-0-472-03446-8.

 

[Winward1]

I think some things should be withheld, perhaps permanently or at least until it's clear a suspect could no longer be living. But original case reports, even mildly censored to protect witnesses and suspects and perhaps things to ensure a confession even decades later, fine.

In the case of the Percy murder it appeared the village's lawyers threw anything and everything up against the wall just to see what would stick. One of the things they claimed was the expense of releasing the reports, which is funny when one considers that Kenilworth is usually ranks 3rd or so per capita from the top when it comes to the income of its residents.

And then they turned around and fought the suit with a bunch of lawyers. I'm sure they were working pro bono.

Otherwise, they didn't just say "ongoing investigation" they said "active, ongoing investigation." That was five years ago and there still hasn't been a new person of interest named since about 1973, when the FBI was planting its story.

 

[Winward1]

"James Armstrong ....... John Norman Collins"

Which we now know is actually:

John Norman Collins....William Thoresen

The Zodiac Killer...........William Thoresen

 

[Winward1]

Like with numerous other Michigan Coed cases, prosecutors implied that Collins murdered Roxie Phillips in CA.

But if one looks at the timeline and considers the backgrounds of Collins and Thoresen, it is far more plausible that it was Thoresen who Alice Kalom on June 8, 1969, in Michigan before traveling out to his home in California, where he murdered Phillips on June 30 and then attacked at Blue Rock Springs Park a few days later, on July 4th.

There is ton of very solid stuff that points directly at Thoresen as having been Zodiac and there's nothing Zodiac like about Collins.

 

[Richard]

Like with numerous other Michigan Coed cases, prosecutors implied that Collins murdered Roxie Phillips in CA.

But if one looks at the timeline and considers the backgrounds of Collins and Thoresen, it is far more plausible that it was Thoresen who Alice Kalom on June 8, 1969, in Michigan before traveling out to his home in California, where he murdered Phillips on June 30 and then attacked at Blue Rock Springs Park a few days later, on July 4th.

There is ton of very solid stuff that points directly at Thoresen as having been Zodiac and there's nothing Zodiac like about Collins.

While Washtenaw County prosecutors in Michigan knew about the murder of Roxie Ann Phillips in California, they did NOT mention her murder at all during Collins' trial for the murder of Karen Sue Beineman. They were very careful NOT to mention any other crimes than the ones he was specifically charged with. To do so would have been objected to by the defense on grounds of predjudce due to mentioning crimes not charged. Had they mentioned Roxie during the trial, the Defense certainly would have included that in their many appeals, and they did not.

I agree with you that Collins time line and apparent MO does not line up with anything related to Zodiac. Certainly he could not have committed the murders at Lake Berryessa (September 1969) or in San Francisco (October 1969), since by then he was in jail in Michigan awaiting trial.

Also, when comparing the manner and style of the Zodiac killings with those in Michigan, there are many significant differences.

Zodiac attacked couples (male and female) in or near their vehicles, during his first three attacks, quickly killing them. He did not move their bodies, he did not sexually molest them, and he took credit for killing them in a series of letters. He also killed a male cab driver suddenly and again no similarity to the Michigan murders.

In Michigan, the victims (all female) were all picked up away from their homes while walking. They were transported to a location or locations, clothing removed, they were assaulted sexually, and murdered. Their bodies were then transported to different locations and dumped. No effort was made by the killer to comment upon, or take credit for the murders.

Roxie Ann Phillips' murder was very similar to the MO in the Michigan cases, and in fact, John Norman Collins had been with her the day before she disappeared. He had a date to return the next day to the house she was staying at. A piece of her flowered outfit was found in the Oldsmobile he had driven out to California and back to Michigan. California prosecutors had a strong case against him and requested his extradition from Michigan, but it was refused so that the Michigan cases could first be resolved.