MI MI - JOHN NORMAN COLLINS Co-Ed Murders 1967-69, Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti

[Winward1]

"Also, when comparing the manner and style of the Zodiac killings with those in Michigan, there are many significant differences."

Only in tactics. As one would expect, if he was Zodiac, being a sadist and hunting humans for sport full time he was far from typical. He was not holding down a job at a chocolate factory or airplane plant and committing the same crime the same way in the same area when time allowed.

The motive, rather than the tactics, is key. One would have to be seriously motivated to commit these crimes. That the Zodiac and Coed Killings were going on during the same years, the motive almost certainly was the same and there is just enough time between the crimes for someone to drive from the Midwest to the West Coast (and vice-versa) would be more important given the level that whomever was committing these crimes was operating on.

You look at the similarities between Zodiac crimes proven and suspected, the Coed Killings, the off of the wall rare multiple homicides that were going on in Illinois before Thoresen left there (and what he was doing otherwise and that they ended just before he left) and the multiple homicides that occurred in the motiveless home invasions 1966-69 in the Midwest and South East and you can see patterns in the evidence and what was seen by witnesses (I've documented a lot of this in two books already.)

And there are similarities in behavior, getting the victims tied up before they were attacked on numerous occasions, often (but not always) using a .22 (as one would might expect from a guy who had been busted with 70 tons of illegal guns), trolling college campuses by day and elsewhere at night, attacking several times around dusk or after dark and then in daylight.

And this was long before the golden age of serial killers. This kind of stuff in Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti, Northern and Southern California, the outskirts of Cincinnati, Kenilworth Illinois, at state parks on snowy days in early March, in Florida suburbs, on Texas highways and in DuPage County, IL was unheard of in those days.

For five decades people have suspected that Zodiac was the world's biggest badass and now they're finding out it's true. This was the same guy and he had been at it since he was a teen. By the time the feds figured it out he was dead, or figured some of it out (like Percy) but they kept it to themselves while he continued killing. If they didn't bury it there would have been Hell to pay. He was also a rich kid's son, which didn't look good.

But he was dead and there was not the ability for individuals to investigate like there is today. Bogus mailings were easy to create and the media would run planted stories based on dead sources who had purportedly revealed implausible suspects. Also, a lot of books on these cases were yet to be written.

Otherwise, this guy was paroled after three months for rape, lawyered up and avoided extradition for bombings, was bonded out multiple times for breaking people's bones in rooms full of witnesses, fatally beat and stabbed a senator's daughter while she was in her bed and lured a family of six to their cottage just to kill them. Meanwhile, four innocent guys went to prison.

This explains the oddities of Thoresen's wife's book and trial, Collins' investigation and prosecution, the continuous churn of B.S. suspects, bogus mailings and propaganda around Zodiac and the quashing of work by those who have sought to independently investigate the Percy and Sims cases in recent years (not to mention how there's always a problem with the DNA in these cases and not one of them has been solved. I have mentioned but a few of them here.) I've documented that as well.

 

[Richard]

Investigators of the Michigan Coed murders generally considered seven cases to be linked and possibly to have been committed by the same perpetrator(s) - the lone possible exception which was mentioned even at the time was the Jane Mixer murder because there were some differences between her murder and the others. (Many years later, Gary Leiterman was convicted of her murder.)

Washtenaw County Investigators did have other somewhat similar murders occur during the same time that they considered for a short time as possibly being connected to the "series". The were, however, ruled out fairly quickly. These were:

The 5 July 1969 shooting of Margaret Phillips. She was a University of Michigan graduate student in Ann Arbor. Shot twice in the head with a .22 pistol, she lingered for a day in a coma before dying in the hospital. Within days, a recently paroled convicted rapist named Ernest R. Bishop, Jr. was arrested for her murder. He confessed to her murder and corroborating evidence was very strong. In January 1970, he was found Not Guilty by reason of Insanity, and sent to Ionia State Hospital, a mental hospital for the criminally insane - for an indeterminant period. In 1974, the Michigan law regarding such automatic placements was changed and Bishop was given a medical hearing and released.

On 9 December 1968, Gloria Murphy was stabbed to death in her home, receiving multiple stab wounds. Her husband, James Murphy (age 21) was arrested and he confessed to killing her. His defense (like Bishop's) was that he suffered from a mental condition that caused him to stab her. He was found Not Guilty by reason of insanity, and he was automatically sent to Ionia State Hospital, but was released by 1974.

In December 1967, Eileen Marie Adams, 14, of Toledo Ohio was found dead in Michigan, just 25 miles south of Ypsilanti. Some law enforcement officials thought that her murder was related to the Coed murders in Ypsilanti/Ann Arbor. But investigators closer to those murders would not include it, because they did not think it was similar enough. It wasn't until 2011 that her case was closed with the arrest of Robert Bowman in Ohio who was convicted of kidnapping, imprisoning, torturing and ultimately killing her. Evidence suggests that he did this on other occasions as well.

So there were a number of killers in Michigan at the same time, and investigators had to consider their crimes as possibly being connected to the Coed murders. Although the term "Serial Killer" was not in use at the time, Washtenaw County Investigators clearly thought that this was such a case with so many connected killings - and they were careful to try to keep other cases separate from them.

Another case of some possible connection might be that of the murder of Betsy Aardsma in November 1969 by a person or persons unknown in the graduate library at Penn State University, PA. She was from Holland Michigan and had just graduated from the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.

LINKS:

Ernest R. Bishop Jr. | Ann Arbor District Library

GUILTY - OH - Eileen Adams, 14, Toledo, 18 Dec 1967

PA - PA - Betsy Aardsma, 22, murdered in Pattee Library, Penn State, 29 Nov 1969

 

[Winward1]

While they needed to be solved the cases you cite are, by comparison, typical homicides. Mixer fits with the others because it was a kind unknown in the area and clearly meant to shock (leaving her body atop a grave) and up the fear level. The motive was the same.

As it was a shooting and the others stabbings is another reason to believe Thoresen killed Mixer and Sheila Collins and was the Coed Kiler and Zodiac. Similarly described blue Chevys seen by Zodiac and Coed Murder witnesses, Thoresen owning a Honda 350, the Coed and Zodiac slaying timelines mirroring one another (rather than conflicting), Thoresen residing in CA, Stephanie Casberg obviously being a Coed Killer victim and Thoresen matching Collins' description in at least four ways is further proof (along with the propaganda that Collins inexplicably put over 5-6 murders on local, state and county police).

I'd bet good money Thoresen killed Aardsma as there's all kinds of evidence he killed Cheri Jo Bates after trolling for her in another college library. He was taking more chances by Nov. '69 (while in a downward spiral.) The description fits him and the book that was written about the case that names an academic as killer, if I recall correctly, sounds like little more than just a bunch of stories.

 

[Richard]

Here is yet another Michigan related case from 1968 which occurred around the same time as the "Coed Murders", but not considered to be connected to them. There appears to be no connection between the two perpetrators and John Norman Collins.

This "solved" case was that of the abduction, rape, and attempted murder of Mrs. Sally Heaton, age 31 on 23 October 1968. She was abducted in Michigan by two men: Dennis Pearson (age 26) and Nelson Eddie Weaver (age 28). Although the initial abduction and rapes occurred in Michigan, the victim was transported across state lines and the case was handled by prosecutors in Illinois.

Sally Heaton was shot four times. Once in the hand, once through the neck and twice in the head. She was buried under hay in a field northwest of Chicago. Remarkably, she was still alive and made it to the highway where she was found by a passing motorist.

Her two assailants were captured in November 1968 and tried separately. Dennis Pearson was convicted and sentenced to between 100 and 125 years in prison, where he still resides. At his last parole hearing, he was denied parole by a parole board vote of 15 to nothing. He will be up for parole in 2030 when he will be 88 years old.

It is hard to believe that this was only a one-time offense. There may have been other similar attacks by one or both of these maggots prior to their assault on Sally Heaton, and clearly their ultimate intent in her case was murder. Were there others?

C01441 - PEARSON, DENNIS
VIENNA (ILLINOIS) CORRECTIONAL CENTER

Pearson represented himself during his trial and later appealed the court's finding of guilt. The following link is the decision of the appellate court which includes many gruesome facts brought out in the trial.

LINK:
People v. Pearson

His partner, Nelson Eddie Weaver was tried separately. He died in 2008:
View Nelson Weaver's Obituary on BattleCreekEnquirer.com and share memories

 

[Brotherfudz]

Investigators of the Michigan Coed murders generally considered seven cases to be linked and possibly to have been committed by the same perpetrator(s) - the lone possible exception which was mentioned even at the time was the Jane Mixer murder because there were some differences between her murder and the others. (Many years later, Gary Leiterman was convicted of her murder.)

Washtenaw County Investigators did have other somewhat similar murders occur during the same time that they considered for a short time as possibly being connected to the "series". The were, however, ruled out fairly quickly. These were:

The 5 July 1969 shooting of Margaret Phillips. She was a University of Michigan graduate student in Ann Arbor. Shot twice in the head with a .22 pistol, she lingered for a day in a coma before dying in the hospital. Within days, a recently paroled convicted rapist named Ernest R. Bishop, Jr. was arrested for her murder. He confessed to her murder and corroborating evidence was very strong. In January 1970, he was found Not Guilty by reason of Insanity, and sent to Ionia State Hospital, a mental hospital for the criminally insane - for an indeterminant period. In 1974, the Michigan law regarding such automatic placements was changed and Bishop was given a medical hearing and released.

On 9 December 1968, Gloria Murphy was stabbed to death in her home, receiving multiple stab wounds. Her husband, James Murphy (age 21) was arrested and he confessed to killing her. His defense (like Bishop's) was that he suffered from a mental condition that caused him to stab her. He was found Not Guilty by reason of insanity, and he was automatically sent to Ionia State Hospital, but was released by 1974.

In December 1967, Eileen Marie Adams, 14, of Toledo Ohio was found dead in Michigan, just 25 miles south of Ypsilanti. Some law enforcement officials thought that her murder was related to the Coed murders in Ypsilanti/Ann Arbor. But investigators closer to those murders would not include it, because they did not think it was similar enough. It wasn't until 2011 that her case was closed with the arrest of Robert Bowman in Ohio who was convicted of kidnapping, imprisoning, torturing and ultimately killing her. Evidence suggests that he did this on other occasions as well.

So there were a number of killers in Michigan at the same time, and investigators had to consider their crimes as possibly being connected to the Coed murders. Although the term "Serial Killer" was not in use at the time, Washtenaw County Investigators clearly thought that this was such a case with so many connected killings - and they were careful to try to keep other cases separate from them.

Another case of some possible connection might be that of the murder of Betsy Aardsma in November 1969 by a person or persons unknown in the graduate library at Penn State University, PA. She was from Holland Michigan and had just graduated from the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.

LINKS:

Ernest R. Bishop Jr. | Ann Arbor District Library

GUILTY - OH - Eileen Adams, 14, Toledo, 18 Dec 1967

PA - PA - Betsy Aardsma, 22, murdered in Pattee Library, Penn State, 29 Nov 1969

Investigators of the Michigan Coed murders generally considered seven cases to be linked and possibly to have been committed by the same perpetrator(s) - the lone possible exception which was mentioned even at the time was the Jane Mixer murder because there were some differences between her murder and the others. (Many years later, Gary Leiterman was convicted of her murder.)

Washtenaw County Investigators did have other somewhat similar murders occur during the same time that they considered for a short time as possibly being connected to the "series". The were, however, ruled out fairly quickly. These were:

The 5 July 1969 shooting of Margaret Phillips. She was a University of Michigan graduate student in Ann Arbor. Shot twice in the head with a .22 pistol, she lingered for a day in a coma before dying in the hospital. Within days, a recently paroled convicted rapist named Ernest R. Bishop, Jr. was arrested for her murder. He confessed to her murder and corroborating evidence was very strong. In January 1970, he was found Not Guilty by reason of Insanity, and sent to Ionia State Hospital, a mental hospital for the criminally insane - for an indeterminant period. In 1974, the Michigan law regarding such automatic placements was changed and Bishop was given a medical hearing and released.

On 9 December 1968, Gloria Murphy was stabbed to death in her home, receiving multiple stab wounds. Her husband, James Murphy (age 21) was arrested and he confessed to killing her. His defense (like Bishop's) was that he suffered from a mental condition that caused him to stab her. He was found Not Guilty by reason of insanity, and he was automatically sent to Ionia State Hospital, but was released by 1974.

In December 1967, Eileen Marie Adams, 14, of Toledo Ohio was found dead in Michigan, just 25 miles south of Ypsilanti. Some law enforcement officials thought that her murder was related to the Coed murders in Ypsilanti/Ann Arbor. But investigators closer to those murders would not include it, because they did not think it was similar enough. It wasn't until 2011 that her case was closed with the arrest of Robert Bowman in Ohio who was convicted of kidnapping, imprisoning, torturing and ultimately killing her. Evidence suggests that he did this on other occasions as well.

So there were a number of killers in Michigan at the same time, and investigators had to consider their crimes as possibly being connected to the Coed murders. Although the term "Serial Killer" was not in use at the time, Washtenaw County Investigators clearly thought that this was such a case with so many connected killings - and they were careful to try to keep other cases separate from them.

Another case of some possible connection might be that of the murder of Betsy Aardsma in November 1969 by a person or persons unknown in the graduate library at Penn State University, PA. She was from Holland Michigan and had just graduated from the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.

LINKS:

Ernest R. Bishop Jr. | Ann Arbor District Library

GUILTY - OH - Eileen Adams, 14, Toledo, 18 Dec 1967

PA - PA - Betsy Aardsma, 22, murdered in Pattee Library, Penn State, 29 Nov 1969

The Eileen Adams case is so disturbing, no way that was a one off...would love to know what happened to Ernest R Bishop Jr and James Murphy after their releases.

 

[Richard]

The Eileen Adams case is so disturbing, no way that was a one off...would love to know what happened to Ernest R Bishop Jr and James Murphy after their releases.

Robert Bowman, who tortured and murdered Eileen Adams resides in the Ohio state prison system. He certainly killed many more people during his long existence before he was arrested, tried, and convicted of Eileen's murder. A look at other similar unsolved disappearances and murders should include him as a potential suspect. He lived for a while in California and also in Florida.

I do not know what became of either Ernest R. Bishop, Jr. or James P. Murphy after their release from Iona State Hospital in 1974. It would be interesting to know if they continued to kill because of their stated uncontrolled impulses, or if they were completely cured by that fine institution. They certainly were able to get away with murder at least once.

 

[Winward1]

Police said they reported inaccurate info in the cases of the Coed victims. I doubt any were sexually assaulted.

 

[Richard]

Police said they reported inaccurate info in the cases of the Coed victims. I doubt any were sexually assaulted.

Sheriff Harvey, in an interview in recent years said that news reporters at times misquoted him or reported what was said inaccurately. He did not mean that the police intentionally gave out inaccurate information. I don't think that he said anything regarding sexual assaults on the victims in that context.

The conditions of victims were all written about in papers at the time, including the fact that all were naked or only semi clothed. All had been physically abused in differing ways before their deaths and some were violated or mutilated afterward.

John Norman Collins was charged and convicted of the first degree murder of Karen Sue Beineman. He was NOT charged with raping her, but it was clear that she had been sexually assaulted.

 

[Winward1]

One way to tell when prosecutors have a weak case is when they say BS as if it’s incriminating.

Like Collins was known to have visited a building where one of the victims lived. This is stated as if it is significant. It is the kind of thing one sees in the endless churn of incredibly weak Zodiac suspects (as opposed to Thoresen as Zodiac.)

Imagine that, a college student in a small town full of college students visited a building where another college student lived. What are the odds? How could he be innocent?

One doesn’t see this kind of thing in examples where they actually had a case. Right there, besides the fact that a key witness lied and cops were hassling defense witnesses, you know they had nothing. Otherwise, Police routinely supplied false information about evidence to allow for credible confessions.

Speaking of credibility, Richard, as you often seem to do little more than repeat these kinds of things (at least when it comes to this case) as if they have significance whatever credibility you had left appears to have gone down the tubes.

Beware of writers who repeat these things. They are not investigators. They are propagandists. Also, beware of sheriffs from circa 1960s case speaking In recent years. How old was the guy when he made these statements? 94? He probably remembers less than Joe Biden does.

 

[Richard]

One way to tell when prosecutors have a weak case is when they say BS as if it’s incriminating.

Like Collins was known to have visited a building where one of the victims lived. This is stated as if it is significant. It is the kind of thing one sees in the endless churn of incredibly weak Zodiac suspects (as opposed to Thoresen as Zodiac.)

Imagine that, a college student in a small town full of college students visited a building where another college student lived. What are the odds? How could he be innocent?

One doesn’t see this kind of thing in examples where they actually had a case. Right there, besides the fact that a key witness lied and cops were hassling defense witnesses, you know they had nothing. Otherwise, Police routinely supplied false information about evidence to allow for credible confessions.

Speaking of credibility, Richard, as you often seem to do little more than repeat these kinds of things (at least when it comes to this case) as if they have significance whatever credibility you had left appears to have gone down the tubes.

Beware of writers who repeat these things. They are not investigators. They are propagandists. Also, beware of sheriffs from circa 1960s case speaking In recent years. How old was the guy when he made these statements? 94? He probably remembers less than Joe Biden does.

I guess I must have misunderstood your previous post (the one I quoted). I thought you were referring to an earlier link I posted which discussed the case and quoted Sheriff Harvey:
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]
Michigan Murders: 50 years ago, terror reigned in Ypsilanti[/FONT]

It did not occur to me that you were simply making it all up and speaking in vague generalities. I should have asked WHAT police you were referring to and who "they" were who were allegedly reporting inaccurate information on the cases.

Sheriff Harvey was not 94 (as you suggest) when he gave the interview referred to. Something you could easily have checked out on Google, rather than implying that he was weak, frail, and struggling cognitively. He was only 32 when he was elected sheriff in 1964, and so he was 80 years old in 2012 when he was being interviewed. He seems pretty sharp in those interviews:

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Michigan Murders: Former sheriff recalls Washtenaw County's most notorious serial killer[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]

[/FONT]

You are constantly mixing up prosecutors with police investigators. They do work together, but are not one and the same.

Our legal system - in all states - has very specific rules of evidence, and those rules have to be followed very carefully for trials to be fair and just. Any time a prosecutor deviates from those rules of evidence, the defense can and does object on legal grounds and can use such to exclude evidence, ask for a mistrial or to appeal a sentence.

Rules of evidence specifically require that any crime charged be backed up with proof. Innuendo or implication or hearsay does not fly. Some "coincidences" or potential links between a victim and potential suspect are indeed pursued by investigators, but unless the circumstances are compelling, they are usually not introduced as evidence. So just because a person was once in a building where a victim lived is not necessarily incriminating. But given the right circumstances, it might be.

No evidence can be introduced which does not apply to the specific charges referred to trial. Even if someone has been convicted of ten previous murders, none of that information can be introduced in trial for another crime. The case has to be tried strictly on its own merits and mention of misconduct not charged is grounds for a mistrial or appeal.

Where in the trial record can you point to any of the legal errors you allege? When and what prosecutor stated in court that Collins "visited a building where one of the victims lived"?

Collins was charged with only one murder - that of Karen Sue Beineman. Are you saying that prosecutors alleged he visited her building? Or are you saying that the prosecutors gave such statements to the press before or after the trial trying to link him to one of the other murders?

The prosecutors and police investigators did feel that Collins had indeed committed more than the one murder. but they were very careful NOT to mention any of the other murders in court.

Collins' attorneys did a very good job of defending him, and they presented very well stated appeals to his conviction. However, NONE of those appeals contained any reference to the types of malfeasance you claim occurred, such as witness tampering, mention of other crimes not charged, perjury, police providing false evidence, etc. His appeal was based on six very specific legal points. Don't take my word for it. Check it out:

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]http://www.ecases.us/case/michctapp/1645832/people-v-collins[/FONT]

You resort to personal attacks often. That in itself is an indication that you have a weak case to present. Speaking of credibility, you have yet to offer a single bit of information or proof that Thoresen was even in Michigan or that he had anything whatsoever to do with any of these victims.

While solid, admissible evidence against Collins for the murders was not available in every case (and Sheriff Harvey states this in his interview), there was a lot of circumstantial evidence, and signature connections which linked those cases together. Collins was found guilty of a single charge of first degree murder by a jury of 12 citizens based on evidence presented in a trial.

While he was never charged with any of the other Michigan murders or for the California murder, it is very likely that he did commit at least some of them - possibly with help.

Thoresen might have been the baddest dude on the face of the earth. He could have been the Zodiac, The Ice Cream Man, The Unibomber, The Grassy Mall Shooter, and Bozo the Clown all rolled into one. But probably not.

Each serial killer tends to have his own patterns, victim preferences, territory, choices, practices. At any given time there are a number of these creatures active in the country - along with a lot of other individuals who only kill occasionally. Some stick to one geographic area, while others travel all around the country.

When investigating murders, there are two major mistakes to avoid. The first is trying to link all murders to a single serial killer, and the second is ruling out a murder as being the work of a serial killer, just because something is different.

While not every one of a serial killer's murders is exactly the same as his others, one thing that he does NOT do is completely change his MO from one day to the next. He isn't an indiscriminate serial shooter one month, and then a rapist/strangler the next, and then a home invader the following month. With each series having completely different peculiar traits.

Another thing that would be extremely rare would be a serial killer intentionally setting out to frame another guy by shadowing him, and multiple times moving in to kill women the other guy has just interacted with. Thoresen did not come to Michigan, pass himself off as John Norman Collins, and then follow Collins to California, and then back to Michigan, each time impersonating Collins and murdering another girl - all in an effort to "frame" Collins. Such a theory is completely over the top.

Could Thoresen have committed any of the Michigan Coed murders - or other unsolved murders from around that time? Of course. But there has to be some sort of evidence, not just supposition, theory, or guess work to back it up.

 

[Winward1]

"Could Thoresen have committed any of the Michigan Coed murders - or other unsolved murders from around that time? Of course. But there has to be some sort of evidence, not just supposition, theory, or guess work to back it up."

There is all kinds of evidence, from the Honda (like Thoresen owned) seen by a witness at the last sighting of Beineman, to the blue Chevy seen at the last sighting of Fezsler (and at Lake Berryessa) to numerous Michigan police agencies being unable to come up with a single state resident who fit the description of the suspect seen in and on such vehicles, to witnesses changing their stories and coming out of the woodwork months later that conflict with earlier reports and just so happen to blend with Mrs. Wig Shop changing her story, to Thoresen fitting the witnesses' description and on and on.

You have not explained any of this, just doubled down by citing old information anyone can access (as a propagandist might be expected to do when getting dunked on, repeatedly.) Nor has anyone explained Collin's motive to kill any of these victims, or why he would drive Beineman around town before killing her after, inexplicably, carrying out numerous perfect crimes. Nor have you explained how Stephanie Casberg (whose case casts further doubt on Collin's involvement in any of these murders) was not a victim of the Michigan Coed killer.

As anyone who's read this thread can see, there has been no implication on my part that Thoresen intended to frame Collins. I think most people here understand why serial killers are driven to kill and aren't worried about others paying for their crimes.

Meanwhile, there's plenty of reason to believe that, had he killed Beineman, Thoresen almost got caught. That in and of itself is a solid reason to believe he would have left the area.

Otherwise, have I argued that Thoresen killing all of these people in all of these ways and those in the justice system covering it up is an amazing story? No. But there's plenty of evidence that that's what they did. I invite anyone to examine a copy of his wife's book and explain how a publisher from New York, which received ample publicity for it (interviews with the author in major newspapers, book club distribution, etc.) can explain it, for instance photos that have no credits. Anyone who knows anything about publishing knows this kind of thing just isn't done.

Who would have reason to publish such a book and why? Why would someone go and publish a book about Thoresen's story that makes no sense and has no photo publishing credits in it?

I'll give you a reason: to cover up the fact that he was Zodiac, the Coed Killer and a whole lot more (and there's plenty of solid, concrete evidence of it. This is why, far's I know, I have put out the first suspect in Zodiac history no one is pushing back again. How can you explain that? Let me guess, because the evidence is overwhelming and irrefutable, not only that he was Zodiac, but that "experts" passed off bogus letters as the real thing to keep it covered up.)

Anyone can read see for themselves:

https://www.amazon.com/Gave-Everybo...eywords=louise+Thoresen&qid=1621944637&sr=8-2

https://www.amazon.com/C-1-Chicago-...eywords=Vincent+inserra&qid=1621944757&sr=8-1

Or they can simply read this:

https://www.amazon.com/Zodiac-Mania...swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1621944849&sr=8-1

 

[Richard]

...
There is all kinds of evidence, from the Honda (like Thoresen owned) seen by a witness at the last sighting of Beineman, to the blue Chevy seen at the last sighting of Fezsler (Fleszar) (and at Lake Berryessa) to numerous Michigan police agencies being unable to come up with a single state resident who fit the description of the suspect seen in and on such vehicles, to witnesses changing their stories and coming out of the woodwork months later that conflict with earlier reports and just so happen to blend with Mrs. Wig Shop changing her story, to Thoresen fitting the witnesses' description and on and on.

You have not explained any of this, just doubled down by citing old information anyone can access...

Old information is often all that is available in regard to cases which are over 50 years old, but let me address some of your points:

Chevrolets were by far the most common car in America in 1960's, and Honda was the most popular import motorcycle throughout that decade. It is an interesting coincidence that you point out about Thoresen owning these vehicles, but far from proof that he was the Michigan Coed killer. Many people owned these same vehicles.

Mrs. Goshe (the owner of Joan's Wig Shop) stated to investigators that she had seen a young man on a motorcycle, but did not know the make. Mrs. Spaulding, her employee had also seen him and said she thought that the motorcycle "might be a Honda". Investigators drove both women to a Honda showroom and asked them if they could pick out a model that might have been the one seen outside their store. Mrs. Spaulding could not find one that she thought matched, but Mrs. Goshe picked out a Honda 450 (not a 350) that she thought was close to what she had seen. She based this on the fact that it had a square mirror. Police later that day or the next interviewed a woman employee of the store next to the Wig Shop who also claimed to have seen the young man and his bike, which she described as a Triumph with a lot of chrome after market parts.

The women's early description of the motorcycle was really not at issue when they later picked John Norman Collins out of a police line-up and identified him as the man they had seen with Karen Sue Beineman on 23 July 1969. They later officially identified him in the courtroom. What defense lawyers objected to was that Police had earlier obtained a photo of Collins which they showed to Mrs. Goshe and Mrs. Spaulding prior to his arrest. This is discussed in detail in my previous post's link to Collins' appeal.

...Nor has anyone explained Collin's motive to kill any of these victims, or why he would drive Beineman around town before killing her after, inexplicably, carrying out numerous perfect crimes....

How can anyone explain the mental workings and motivations of a person who murders young women in such a brutal and senseless manner? Obviously somebody did kill them and Collins was convicted of one of those murders. If you want to find out why he did what he did, I suggest you ask him.

You would have to describe what you consider a "perfect crime". As for him driving Karen Sue Beineman around town, before killing her, he did this on numerous other occasions giving young women rides on his motorcycle (not always killing them). Collins admitted verbally and in writing in 2013 to having given Alice Kalom a ride on his motorcycle the very day she was murdered.

...Nor have you explained how Stephanie Casberg (whose case casts further doubt on Collin's involvement in any of these murders) was not a victim of the Michigan Coed killer...

Stephanie Marie Casberg has a thread here on Websleuths:
WI - WI - Stephanie Casberg, 17, Racine County, 6 July 1969

Stephanie was murdered sometime the evening of 6-7 July 1969 in Racine, Wisconsin. Someone else first posted (in 2013) a possible connection with John Norman Collins. I posted to that thread for the first time in November 2019, with information regarding Collins and the Michigan Coed Murders. I did not say that I felt the cases were, in fact, linked. At that time frame, Collins and his buddy Andrew Julian Manuel were somewhere between Salinas, California and Ypsilanti, Michigan on a road trip in his silver gray Oldsmobile Cutlass. I have no information that they were in Wisconsin or that they had any connection to Racine, or to Stephanie.

It is remotely possible that they could have killed her, but that is pure speculation. Neither Wisconsin or Michigan investigators have ever linked her murder to the Coed murders.

In fact, Stephanie was quite possibly abducted and killed by an unidentified man who had attacked another young woman (a co-worker of Stephanie) with a knife a month earlier. The assailant in that other attack was described as, male, about 20 years old, about 5 feet, 8 inches tall, light hair, wearing a light jacket and cleated shoes. During that attack he threatened to cut the victim's head off. He was driven off by a another co-worker.

As I said, I don't know whether or not Stephanie's case is linked to the Michigan Coed murders, but I do not see how, either way, it would "cast doubt on" Collins involvement in the Michigan Coed Murders.

It WOULD, however, be doubtful that the Zodiac killer was involved in her murder. He attacked a young couple in their car in California on 4 July 1969. The couple was shot with a 9mm pistol. The killer did not speak to or touch the victims. They were left in place, and he soon called police to take credit for the murders.

Stephanie was murdered only 2 or 3 days later in Wisconsin. She was likely stabbed to death and then her body cut into pieces with a sharp knife before being distributed to various places around Racine County. No one has ever claimed to have killed her and the case remains unsolved.

...As anyone who's read this thread can see, there has been no implication on my part that Thoresen intended to frame Collins. I think most people here understand why serial killers are driven to kill and aren't worried about others paying for their crimes....

You have made numerous posts claiming that John Norman Collins and Thoresen strongly resemble each other. You have stated that you think Thoresen is Zodiac and as Zodiac, he was responsible for the murder of Roxie Ann Phillips in Salinas, CA (where Collins was at the time), Karen Sue Beineman in Ypsilanti, MI (again where Collins was at the time), and that he killed the other Michigan Coed victims at times between 1967 and 1969.

You have even indicated that Collins and Thoresen were one and the same.

Quoting your 18 May 2021 post:
"James Armstrong ....... John Norman Collins"
Which we now know is actually:
John Norman Collins....William Thoresen
The Zodiac Killer...........William Thoresen

I agree that you have never said that Thoresen was trying to frame Collins, but your whole scenario regarding the Michigan Coed murders would point to that. There is just too much coincidence. They would almost have to have been involved in it together, but there is no evidence of that.

I am open to any and all discussion regarding this and other threads. It is the free exchange of ideas that keeps these cases alive, and on occasion solves them to one extent or another. What you mention about Thoresen certainly is food for thought in regard to many unsolved cases. I will read your links and comment on them later.

 

[Winward1]

How can anyone explain the mental workings and motivations of a person who murders young women in such a brutal and senseless manner?

Chevys were ubiquitous in the sixties. No doubt but there's only so much a reasonable person is going to write off as coincidence.

The silver blue (best guess was a Chevy) seen at the last Fleszar (sorry for getting her name wrong earlier) sighting sounds like the blue gray Chevy seen at Lake Berryessa driven by a guy described as the spitting image of Thoresen by three witnesses. Then you have Thoresen resembling Collins in the ways a witness would most likely recall (height, build, hair color, hair part.) Then you have all of these murders but no overlaps in the timeline. Not only that, time is allowed for travel between the areas. Then you have Collins as Beineman's killer not balancing with the crime (not to mention the fishiness of his trail and 50 years of denials.)

Then you have this all being pre-1970s, when it was far from common (if not unheard of in places like Ann Arbor, Ypsilanti, Lake Berryessa, Blue Rock Springs Park.) And the motive which was clearly the same. And Thoresen living in CA explains a similar murder there. And you have Zodiac and the Coed Killer attacking nights and then working in the day, using a guns and then knives or vice versa while clearly doing all of this for publicity and to terrorize.

I could go on but have already put it down. There's no way people today, knowing what they know about serial killers, would write all of this (and more) off as coincidence. Collins positively looks like a patsy compared to Thoresen. Thoresen makes Bundy look like a poor man's Thoresen. (And he makes Manson look like an overrated hillbilly. He is so far out of these guy's leagues it's ridiculous. He is the Michael Jordan of murder—sorry Micheal—and no one's ever heard of him. There are reasons for this. The media will sell you umpteen books about the same cases, over and over, as long as it's not about Thoresen.)

And then you have Thoresen living in the Chicago area when these Zodiac type crimes (multiple victims tied up and killed for sport) that also contain elements of the Coed Killings, like victims assaulted with tree branches. Then they end exactly at the time he moves away. It's like the Zodiac mailing's envelopes changing exactly when Thoresen died.

Then you have evidence of coverups in a number of cases he is prime for. Like they say, the truth comes out in the end (OK, the end may have taken 50 years to get here and maybe it's not the end but the beginning of the end.)

By the way, I looked into the witness who saw the suspect fitting Thoresen's description the day of the Starved Rock murders. He was not a trucker but a salesman. In addition to other things, he described the suspect's hair as wavy.

I have to admit it. The women at Joan's Wig Shop knew a thing or two about hair. This is probably why there was a lot of discussion about the Beineman suspect's hair. Well, what was one of the words they settled on to describe his hair? Wavy.

But I guess this is just another coincidence linking these otherwise rare as hell types of homicides and we should make little of it.

 

[Winward1]

"I agree that you have never said that Thoresen was trying to frame Collins, but your whole scenario regarding the Michigan Coed murders would point to that."

As they say the easiest explanation for the cause of an event is almost always the explanation for said event. What it points to is little more than a case of mistaken identity (not an unusual occurrence in false convictions) with a guy who lacks the background of a killer, let alone a serial killer.

Note how often Collins, a guy convicted of one murder, is referred to as a serial killer. You know what this is? That's when the government wants you in the can regardless of the truth. Of course, it's easy to argue this now when it's overwhelmingly clear that the government is utterly corrupt and the media are in bed with said government.)

"There is just too much coincidence."

The only coincidence is the guys' (Thoresen and Collins) basic descriptions. Everything else about them diverts from there (Collins was close to his mother. Thoresen hated his. Collins was a college student. Thoresen was kicked out of high school. Collins owned a Triumph, Thoresen a Honda.)

Meanwhile, Thoresen explains the fishiness of a witness changing her story, cops harassing defense witnesses and evidence coming from a cop's basement. Can you even understand that story about all the little hairs that came from one person being on the panties found inside another victim? Would, given all of the above, anyone even remotely believe that crap now?

It also explains them being unable to find a suspect with connections to the vehicles originally reported as having been seen by witnesses. And that's before we get into the implausibility of Collins killing Beineman as it was done and Thoresen explaining the Mixer, Sheila Collins and Casberg murders.

"They would almost have to have been involved in it together, but there is no evidence of that."

Because two guys' basic descriptions were the same? Uh, no.

 

[Richard]

Remembering the Victims:

Mary Terese Fleszar, 19, of Willis, MI
Murdered 9 July 1967
Mary Terese Fleszar (1947-1967) - Find A Grave...

Joan Elspeth Schell, 20, of Plymouth, MI
Murdered 30 June 1968
Joan Elspeth Schell (1947-1968) - Find A Grave...

Jane Louise Mixer, 23, of Muskegon, MI
Murdered 20 March 1969
Jane Louise Mixer (1946-1969) - Find A Grave...

Maralynn Skelton, 16, of Romulus, MI
Murdered 24 March 1969
Maralynn Skelton (1953-1969) - Find A Grave...

Dawn Louise Basom, 13, of Ypsilanti, MI
Murdered 15 April 1969
Dawn Louise Basom (1955-1969) - Find A Grave...

Alice Elizabeth Kalom, 21, of Portage, MI
Murdered 7 June 1969
Alice Elizabeth Kalom (1947-1969) - Find A Grave...

Roxie Ann Phillips, 17, from Milwaukie, Oregon
Murdered 30 June 1969
Roxie Ann Phillips (1952-1969) - Find A Grave...

Karen Sue Beineman, 18, of Grand Rapids, MI
Murdered 23 July 1969
Karen Sue Beineman (1951-1969) - Find A Grave...

Eileen Marie Adams, 14, of Toledo, Ohio
Murdered December 1967, at one time thought to possibly be connected to the Michigan Coed Murders
Eileen Marie Adams (1953-1967) - Find A Grave...

 

[Winward1]

If anyone doubts whether Thoresen committed numerous multiple slayings in Northern Illinois before becoming the Michigan Coed Killer, Zodiac and a whole lot more because the MOs varied, consider another prolific killer who hailed from Chicago, H. H. Holmes. And all of the different MOs that Holmes used.

That's not the only thing they had in common. Holmes lived 726 11th Street in Wilmette. Thoresen, when committing some of the Chicago area's most notorious slayings (Peterson-Schuessler, the Grimes sisters and Judith Mae Anderson) was at 521 Roslyn Road, in Kenilworth.

Though Holmes was executed 41 years before Thoresen was born, these addresses (Holmes' former home was demolished in the late 1990s) are separated by a mere ten blocks, or a five minute drive.

 

[Brotherfudz]

If anyone doubts whether Thoresen committed numerous multiple slayings in Northern Illinois before becoming the Michigan Coed Killer, Zodiac and a whole lot more because the MOs varied, consider another prolific killer who hailed from Chicago, H. H. Holmes. And all of the different MOs that Holmes used.

That's not the only thing they had in common. Holmes lived 726 11th Street in Wilmette. Thoresen, when committing some of the Chicago area's most notorious slayings (Peterson-Schuessler, the Grimes sisters and Judith Mae Anderson) was at 521 Roslyn Road, in Kenilworth.

Though Holmes was executed 41 years before Thoresen was born, these addresses (Holmes' former home was demolished in the late 1990s) are separated by a mere ten blocks, or a five minute drive.

Maybe start a thread on this Thoresen guy and stop spamming this thread?

 

[Winward1]

How is it spamming this thread when arguing that Thoresen was the Michigan Coed Killer?

 

[Brotherfudz]

How is it spamming this thread when arguing that Thoresen was the Michigan Coed Killer?

And the Zodiac....I mean I can understand questioning the conviction or someone else being responsible for the murders but you start losing credibility when you start lumping all these murders together. Sounding like that detective who thinks Edward Wayne Edwards is responsible for zodiac, Jon Benet...etc

 

[Winward1]

That's not a great comparison as Zodiac and Benet were 35 or more years apart.

I've never said Thorsen's string of killings spanned more than 15. Otherwise, how have I lost credibility?

By arguing that the blue Chevy seen by witnesses at Lake Berryessa sounds like the car seen by a witness at the first Coed Murder?And that Thoresen not only owned a motorcycle that sounds like the one seen by a Coed Killer witness before she inexplicably changed her story, but I provided a photo of him sitting on it?

And that statewide searches for a suspect fitting the description who owned such vehicles turned up nothing, and a good explanation for this is the vehicles were registered out of state, as Thoresen's were?

And that Thoresen fit the Beineman suspect's description? And that the murders spanned the same era but there's no overlap in the killings? And Thoresen living in CA explains the similar murder there?

Or is it by arguing that the motive and primary MO appears to have been the same (terrorize a metro area by committing a string of brutal, random killings.) It would seem to me that these things make for a pretty solid argument, especially given the weakness and fishiness of the prosecution of Collins.