MI MI - Julia Niswender, 23, EMU student, Ypsilanti, 10 Dec 2012 - #5

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What I was referring to was the storming around the apartment, punching of the refrigerator, ripping up decorations and other items at the crime scene. Not them running in and being stopped at the bedroom door. Source




It seems KT's first reaction was anger, then shock with upset. Some may have reacted with upset, shock then anger. They say people grieve in different ways so if KT is a person with a short fuse to start with, so to speak, with finding out such tragic news, anger may be the first response. Julia and KT may have had some conflicts between them (mother/daughter stuff) and then this tragic event happens. KT may have been feeling guilt too, as many parents do in this situation. KT had tried to contact Julia with news about her medical testing and was unable to reach her. She could've had a gut feeling something didn't jell, but didn't act on it. I think KT and her kids are all close.
 
LookingGlass512 - It seems KT's first reaction was anger, then shock with upset. Some may have reacted with upset, shock then anger. They say people grieve in different ways so if KT is a person with a short fuse to start with, so to speak, with finding out such tragic news, anger may be the first response. Julia and KT may have had some conflicts between them (mother/daughter stuff) and then this tragic event happens. KT may have been feeling guilt too, as many parents do in this situation. KT had tried to contact Julia with news about her medical testing and was unable to reach her. She could've had a gut feeling something didn't jell, but didn't act on it. I think KT and her kids are all close.

You are correct, this is normal behavior, they were close and fights were expected, it was all part of growing up. I am aware of Kim's lab test results statement, which does support that close bond them had. Guess wondering why LE allowed this behavior in the crime scene doesn't matter, it's all normal and I am mistaken so into the round file this one goes.
 
You are correct, this is normal behavior, they were close and fights were expected, it was all part of growing up. I am aware of Kim's lab test results statement, which does support that close bond them had. Guess wondering why LE allowed this behavior in the crime scene doesn't matter, it's all normal and I am mistaken so into the round file this one goes.

I don't agree that it's normal. I think most people who've learned in such a fashion that their daughter was murdered are initially way too shocked and stunned to behave this way. I've never heard of such a reaction, and I've been following crimes for many years. It doesn't necessarily mean that her behavior has any significance, but I do think it's a stretch to say, "this was normal, move along." I think it's suspicious, like she almost expected this outcome and was angry when she turned out to be right.
 
I don't agree that it's normal. I think most people who've learned in such a fashion that their daughter was murdered are initially way too shocked and stunned to behave this way. I've never heard of such a reaction, and I've been following crimes for many years. It doesn't necessarily mean that her behavior has any significance, but I do think it's a stretch to say, "this was normal, move along." I think it's suspicious, like she almost expected this outcome and was angry when she turned out to be right.

I agree with you, Skigirl. Facing the loss of one so precious as a daughter under such strange circumstance, in what world could it be construed as normal to then tear apart that same daughters legacy of joy? For me, it points the the ever present immaturity in Kim's personality that fails to perceive the world or others beyond her own existence, a pathologically self-centered, selfish and toxic, angry and diminishing reactions toward her own flesh and blood. It seems an unguarded moment, hard to take back or explain, a wiping out of evidence of Julia's joy in life that Kim could not control. To tear those snowflakes off, that evidence of hope and happiness Julia displayed in decorating, was her own mother wiping out what was left of her. Considering, that since that night Kim has led the charge in defense of Jim; tried to worm her way into the investigation at first; then, imbue the perception of doubt against LE; tried to shut down and intimidate dissent within her extended family, essentially torn her family apart; used her youngest like a prop in court; excused Jim's prurient proclivities for all these years; and to have circled the wagons of her seemingly dim witted friends to protect him; she seems obscene.

Maybe that's why they left town? It was sinking in that that's how people see her and JT. I hope and pray that Julia's sisters have better guidance for the sake of their futures.
 
I don't agree that it's normal. I think most people who've learned in such a fashion that their daughter was murdered are initially way too shocked and stunned to behave this way. I've never heard of such a reaction, and I've been following crimes for many years. It doesn't necessarily mean that her behavior has any significance, but I do think it's a stretch to say, "this was normal, move along." I think it's suspicious, like she almost expected this outcome and was angry when she turned out to be right.

This is exactly how I saw it. Thanks for the input, Skigirl. I know that any time we have encountered an unexpected or tragic death among family and friends our first reactions have always been numbness/shock and tears, and the anger always came later. Whether Kim's reaction was outside "normal" or any other reason remains to be known.

Through your posts here and on other threads, I have learned to think about your replies and your knowledge dealing with neuroscience, and respect your posts, Skigirl. Thanks again.
 
I don't agree that it's normal. I think most people who've learned in such a fashion that their daughter was murdered are initially way too shocked and stunned to behave this way. I've never heard of such a reaction, and I've been following crimes for many years. It doesn't necessarily mean that her behavior has any significance, but I do think it's a stretch to say, "this was normal, move along." I think it's suspicious, like she almost expected this outcome and was angry when she turned out to be right.

Well, KT and JN had just been at the local pub enjoying dart night, I believe. Speculating, KT may have enjoyed a few beverages while participating in the dart game. KT is on a night out, and then this tragic news hits her. Alcohol depresses the central nervous system, and remember KT admitted to LE that she and JT were having marital issues because JT wasn't giving her any attention. Now she loses a daughter. I don't think KT had anything to do with this tragic event. However, I do wonder about some of the people around her, though. Julia's death might be in line with other things that do not work out in KT's life because of other people around her.
 
Well, KT and JN had just been at the local pub enjoying dart night, I believe. Speculating, KT may have enjoyed a few beverages while participating in the dart game. KT is on a night out, and then this tragic news hits her. Alcohol depresses the central nervous system, and remember KT admitted to LE that she and JT were having marital issues because JT wasn't giving her any attention. Now she loses a daughter. I don't think KT had anything to do with this tragic event. However, I do wonder about some of the people around her, though. Julia's death might be in line with other things that do not work out in KT's life because of other people around her.

So in other words, being a belligerent vindictive clueless drunk would explain her tearing her murdered daughters decorations apart? If I'm understanding the sequence of events correctly, didn't rationalizing this behavior on KT's part only became necessary once the information about how she acted was released as a result of JT's child *advertiser censored* trial?
 
So in other words, being a belligerent vindictive clueless drunk would explain her tearing her murdered daughters decorations apart? If I'm understanding the sequence of events correctly, didn't rationalizing this behavior on KT's part only became necessary once the information about how she acted was released as a result of JT's child *advertiser censored* trial?

KT married JT...and so it goes. This is when I begin to sing that famous country music song by Tammy Wynette, Stand by You Man. Speculation, KT was having a marital indiscretion on JT. JT didn't approve of Julia's dating chooses. In JT's mind, the girls are out of control. JT and Julia didn't really get along for some reason. Lots of anger and control issues here. Sexually abusing and killing Julia could have been JT's payback. Which is a possible motive.
 
KT married JT...and so it goes. This is when I begin to sing that famous country music song by Tammy Wynette, Stand by You Man. Speculation, KT was having a marital indiscretion on JT. JT didn't approve of Julia's dating chooses. In JT's mind, the girls are out of control. JT and Julia didn't really get along for some reason. Lots of anger and control issues here. Sexually abusing and killing Julia could have been JT's payback. Which is a possible motive.

hmm tragic. Reminds me of this

[video=youtube;H-itSWydxBM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-itSWydxBM[/video]
 
That's one possibility, LookingGlass. Or.... mom and Julia fought so much that one of the parents had had enough. A confrontation at Julia's of some sort over her "behavior"? Perhaps by a parent, or a close "friend" who was set up to teach her a lesson?
 
It seems that anger is a common reaction in parents of murdered children:


http://www.pomc.com/survivors.html#2
Turmoil and Numbness

Survivors report suffering an initial phase of shock and confusion. The shock at receiving the information of the murder is experienced both mentally and physically. Typically, the survivor feels unable to accept the news of the death and even less able to comprehend the murder. After a rush of sensory reactions which accompany the adrenaline response to the news, many survivors collapse into a state of stunned affect and physical exhaustion.

But that paints too predictable a picture. In fact, the feelings aroused by the devastating news, and the way these show themselves in the survivor's behavior, vary considerably from one person to another, so that there is a wide range of normal responses in thinking, feeling, and behavior. All of the following are typical survivor reactions during the acute stages of crises: preoccupation with the survivor's personal loss; horror about the suffering that the murder victim may have suffered; a need to know every detail of the victim's death; attacks of panic; a fixation on maintaining a day-to-day routine; though this may be shattered at times by outbursts of intense emotion; restlessness and insomnia; an inability to concentrate; flashbacks to the memory of receiving the death notification or the memory of, or an imagined picture of, the crime itself; rage at the assailant; fear for one's own life or that of other loved ones; self-blame about something the survivor did or did not do to prevent the murder; hostility towards everyone who cannot bring the victim back to life; and utter hopelessness and helplessness.

...

A Unique Stressor: The Criminal Justice System
In the case of murder, the survivor becomes involved with the criminal justice system. Most survivors turn to the criminal justice system for a special kind of emotional support, as well as practical support in their passion to see the assailant apprehended, prosecuted, convicted, and punished.

It is particularly from the impassioned survivors that the justice officials hear not from those who are numbed or depressed. The initial reactions of the vocal survivors may often seem fueled by feelings of revenge that may not be the noblest of human emotions, but it is certainly an understandable, even legitimate feeling in the wake of murder. A problem arises, however, when outsiders like the criminal justice professionals are able to perceive only vengefulness in the survivors, and miss the other feelings at work, feelings of wanting to restore a just order to the world, an order that has been so badly violated by the murder, and feelings that it is important to do something about the crime as a way to combat their sense of helplessness.

Those who see only the survivors' anger are often put off ("frightened" may be more accurate) by its intensity. That may help to explain why the criminal justice system is often unresponsive to homicide victims' survivors. That unresponsiveness is sensed far less often in law enforcement officers, according to many survivors, than in the prosecutors, judges, defense attorneys, and the others, at least in that majority of cases that result in an arrest and prosecution.

It seems to me that the behavior of KT reaction to her daughter's murder is not abnormal, nor should it be considered suspicious.
 
KT married JT...and so it goes. This is when I begin to sing that famous country music song by Tammy Wynette, Stand by You Man. Speculation, KT was having a marital indiscretion on JT. JT didn't approve of Julia's dating chooses. In JT's mind, the girls are out of control. JT and Julia didn't really get along for some reason. Lots of anger and control issues here. Sexually abusing and killing Julia could have been JT's payback. Which is a possible motive.

So Julia had moved out of the Turnquist home, was attending college plus worked as well. But yet, in JT's mind, the girls are out of control, he was still angry over some argument with Julia though managed a pleasant phone call with her, was mad about her dating choices on top of KT's affair and this combined is the possible motive? A payback killing? :thinking:

How was Julia out of control? Julia was 23 yrs. old, attending EMU, living away from home, employed at Walmart and was probably quite capable deciding on her own who she wanted or didn't want to date. Yet her dating choices mattered? To me, that's utter nonsense and I won't accept it as one of the reasons. From what I seen and read this doesn't jive at all so I call it a bold face lie and another distraction. Regardless of Julia's choice of dating/sexual partner, it was her decision to make.

Now maybe if people said JT was jealous over her dating others and knew he was losing her because Julia was growing into her own woman then it might make better sense. Maybe he lost control when finally realizing Julia never was his and never would be so he changed that...forever. Was Chelsea Bruck his other fixation? Who is the present one? Why not just get a divorce vs killing the stepdaughter over the wife having an affair?

KT married JT but she also gave birth to Julia. She continues to stand by him without demanding that he get 100% cleared by LE regarding the murder of her daughter. If she truly wants Justice for Julia, she would insist that JT do that. But she doesn't, she's OK with how things are....and so it goes.

It is my opinion, KT's first priority should have been and should be getting JT cleared by LE or arrested. She only had one Julia but there are plenty of decent men out there. JT is disposable and each day she continues to live with him is a danger to her and their child. :moo:
 
It seems that anger is a common reaction in parents of murdered children:


http://www.pomc.com/survivors.html#2


It seems to me that the behavior of KT reaction to her daughter's murder is not abnormal, nor should it be considered suspicious.

As Skigirl points out, and none of what you refer to indicates, that it is normal to turn the anger against the victim. Destroying a symbol, indeed a remnant at that point of Julia's joy in life, of her will to flourish and celebrate, is not normal by any stretch of the imagination. It seems akin to spitting on her corpse at that initial point, perhaps a lesson to her living daughters on where Julia's mother stood. It seems like "how dare she die and ruin my life." Might hazard a guess that it was anger perhaps that Julia, so joyful and independent, drove JT to do this and that's what struck KT at the first moment of realization that her daughter was dead, that she would have to protect the killer. The tearing down of the her snowflakes was knee jerk vengeful anger, it seems possible.

After all, JT had gone to the trouble of making a call to Julia in preparation for the time she was said to have been killed. She informed others that she was scheduled to go work with him early the next morning. He knew she was alone. He knew she expected him. He knew she would be waiting for him, according to his own account of things, and yet that never happened and he never followed up? What then happened? There does not seem to be any more calls from him to Julia. Did he show up at her door? Did she fail to answer her door? Did he just forget their plans until the police asked him about it? Why did JT, KT or Jenn not wonder what happened to Julia until they received a call on Tuesday night, two days after their appointment to work together for her to have extra money for gifts? How could they ignore her lack of response so haphazardly when everything else was so precisely accounted for, such as his pleasant conversation setting up the time to bring her to work with him? Why did Julia let others in her family know about this plan? How did JT explain Julia as a no show for cleaning work to KT? Did KT even know he had arranged to work with Julia? Somebody tortured and killed Julia. Somebody who was angry with her. Somebody wanted to control her, tie her up, snuff the life out of her, rather methodically, carefully, precisely, taking away ties, leaving behind gloves. Somebody left her there in the bathtub after killing her to wipe away and confuse evidence. Somebody who had a thing for dead bodies in water perhaps. Somebody, it seems came back at some point and turned on her TV loud enough for the roommate to hear and finally become alarmed enough to call security, on Tuesday, well after she was tormented and murdered, it seems. Somebody needed keys to let themselves in to do that and lock themselves out. Somebody took her keys off her lanyard. So, ask yourself why JT won't cooperate with LE fully in a statement that may "trip him up" about where he was before and after when Julia may have met her fate? Why would an innocent man be worried about being tripped up if he has nothing to hide?
 
It seems that anger is a common reaction in parents of murdered children:


http://www.pomc.com/survivors.html#2


It seems to me that the behavior of KT reaction to her daughter's murder is not abnormal, nor should it be considered suspicious.

Funny how some things just don't come as a surprise. I have considered how suspicious other things have appeared as well though behavioral reactions have proved normal responses so no need to mention them. :wink:
 
It seems that anger is a common reaction in parents of murdered children:


http://www.pomc.com/survivors.html#2


It seems to me that the behavior of KT reaction to her daughter's murder is not abnormal, nor should it be considered suspicious.

Her reaction, if true, that she was screaming and hitting the refrig and tearing down snowflakes immediately after learning of Julia's death do not quite fit with the article, in my opinion. "Survivors report suffering an initial phase of shock and confusion." (from your article) Where was the shock, confusion? Why the overt anger at that moment? Rage at the assailant, I can understand. But to tear up something your daughter lovingly put up just doesn't make the same impression. It wasn't raging against the assailant, but seems to indicate anger at the daughter (for leaving her? For putting her in this position of "grieving mother"? Why?) Why ruin the daughter's possessions immediately after being told she was dead?

I will read more of the article you posted, but so far my interpretation of what it says is different than yours.


 
Funny how some things just don't come as a surprise. I have considered how suspicious other things have appeared as well though behavioral reactions have proved normal responses so no need to mention them. :wink:

Ahh, ModMaiden.... perhaps it is all in what our own personal beliefs want to see? What seems suspicious to one, may not be at all suspicious to another. We all see the same thing, yet take away a different view, it seems.

It is still my belief that anger does not come first after a death is revealed.. Shock, loss, withdrawal, crying, disbelief would be more likely. And remember, at that point in time it likely was not announced as a murder. Yes, everyone reacts differently to all circumstances, so nothing is really right or wrong. But some behaviors are more suspicion provoking than others. JMO
 
It seems that anger is a common reaction in parents of murdered children:


http://www.pomc.com/survivors.html#2


It seems to me that the behavior of KT reaction to her daughter's murder is not abnormal, nor should it be considered suspicious.

If you read it in context, it is not talking just about the immediate moments after finding out. There are references to adherence to normal day-to-day life. That wouldn't be in reference to the 1-5 minutes after hearing the news.
 
I also read it the way Skigirl did. The anger would not likely be immediate.
 
As Skigirl points out, and none of what you refer to indicates, that it is normal to turn the anger against the victim.
KT did not turn her anger against the victim. Nevertheless, it IS normal to have feelings of anger against the victim. And if you read everything that is in the link that I provided, you will see:
from website that I cited before said:
For many survivors, the strongest point of focus for their feelings is over the loss, and with this normal focal point of nearly all grieving, the normal mix of grieving emotions, including a guilt inducing sense of anger at the person who died, is present. For those who cannot imagine a life without that loved one, ideas of suicide are common.

Destroying a symbol, indeed a remnant at that point of Julia's joy in life, of her will to flourish and celebrate, is not normal by any stretch of the imagination. It seems akin to spitting on her corpse at that initial point, perhaps a lesson to her living daughters on where Julia's mother stood.
I find it rather distasteful to compare KT's ripping of some decoration with spitting on Julia's body. The christmas decoration is a symbol of happiness that is immediate contradiction with the deep sadness that KT must have felt.
After all, JT had gone to the trouble of making a call to Julia in preparation for the time she was said to have been killed. She informed others that she was scheduled to go work with him early the next morning. He knew she was alone. He knew she expected him. He knew she would be waiting for him, according to his own account of things, and yet that never happened and he never followed up? What then happened? There does not seem to be any more calls from him to Julia. Did he show up at her door? Did she fail to answer her door? Did he just forget their plans until the police asked him about it? Why did JT, KT or Jenn not wonder what happened to Julia until they received a call on Tuesday night, two days after their appointment to work together for her to have extra money for gifts? How could they ignore her lack of response so haphazardly when everything else was so precisely accounted for, such as his pleasant conversation setting up the time to bring her to work with him? Why did Julia let others in her family know about this plan? How did JT explain Julia as a no show for cleaning work to KT?
It does not seem to me that Julia was scheduled for work with JT that Monday morning. She was scheduled to work at Walmart and also intended to go to a party.
Did KT even know he had arranged to work with Julia? Somebody tortured and killed Julia. Somebody who was angry with her. Somebody wanted to control her, tie her up, snuff the life out of her, rather methodically, carefully, precisely, taking away ties, leaving behind gloves. Somebody left her there in the bathtub after killing her to wipe away and confuse evidence. Somebody who had a thing for dead bodies in water perhaps. Somebody, it seems came back at some point and turned on her TV loud enough for the roommate to hear and finally become alarmed enough to call security, on Tuesday, well after she was tormented and murdered, it seems. Somebody needed keys to let themselves in to do that and lock themselves out. Somebody took her keys off her lanyard.
Indeed somebody did, but who?
So, ask yourself why JT won't cooperate with LE fully in a statement that may "trip him up" about where he was before and after when Julia may have met her fate? Why would an innocent man be worried about being tripped up if he has nothing to hide?
Because it happens very often that innocent people say things under immense pressure that police will use to wrongly convict them. Such examples are numerous and easy to find.
 
Her reaction, if true, that she was screaming and hitting the refrig and tearing down snowflakes immediately after learning of Julia's death do not quite fit with the article, in my opinion. "Survivors report suffering an initial phase of shock and confusion." (from your article) Where was the shock, confusion? Why the overt anger at that moment? Rage at the assailant, I can understand. But to tear up something your daughter lovingly put up just doesn't make the same impression. It wasn't raging against the assailant, but seems to indicate anger at the daughter (for leaving her? For putting her in this position of "grieving mother"? Why?) Why ruin the daughter's possessions immediately after being told she was dead?

I will read more of the article you posted, but so far my interpretation of what it says is different than yours.



But in the next paragraph, they write:

But that paints too predictable a picture. In fact, the feelings aroused by the devastating news, and the way these show themselves in the survivor's behavior, vary considerably from one person to another, so that there is a wide range of normal responses in thinking, feeling, and behavior. All of the following are typical survivor reactions during the acute stages of crises: preoccupation with the survivor's personal loss; horror about the suffering that the murder victim may have suffered; a need to know every detail of the victim's death; attacks of panic; a fixation on maintaining a day-to-day routine; though this may be shattered at times by outbursts of intense emotion; restlessness and insomnia; an inability to concentrate; flashbacks to the memory of receiving the death notification or the memory of, or an imagined picture of, the crime itself; rage at the assailant; fear for one's own life or that of other loved ones; self-blame about something the survivor did or did not do to prevent the murder; hostility towards everyone who cannot bring the victim back to life; and utter hopelessness and helplessness.

The way I understand it, the article distinguishes "numbness" and "turmoil". While many survivors report shock and numbness. Many other react in very different ways, that could be collectively described as "turmoil".
 
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