MISTRIAL - Sidney Moorer on trial for the kidnapping of Heather Elvis #5

[jillycat]

I agree with this.
We can all assume (based on Heather's actions) what was said in the SM/HE payphone call and the information that Heather gave to her roommate.
However, Heather did not mention (or BW did not say that HE mentioned to her) that SM invited Heather to meet him anywhere that fateful night. According to BW, HE told her that he wanted to get back together and leave his wife and That was what she was going to sleep on. Not that she was going to sleep on meeting him.

Agreed except for the last statement. Bri did say on the stand that she asked HE if she was going to meet/see SM and that HE said she was going to sleep on it.

 

[Sunshynn]

I thought BW's testimony was that she had asked HE if she was "going to see him" and HE replied saying she was going to "sleep on it". Correct me if I'm wrong, my memory might be flawed on that. But I'm also in agreement that we can't be sure about anything that was said in the HE/SM phone conversation.

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You're probably right, but I took it to mean that BW was asking HE if she was going to go and see him because he wanted to be with her now and was leaving TM-he was free-not that SM was telling her to meet him anywhere.
I could be wrong.

 

[peedoffinny]

I think LE made a HUGE mistake after TE declined to let them take HE's car in for a thorough forensic exam. LE should of gotten a subpoena to process that car. A young woman was missing and that car was her's. I will never understand why TE didn't insist the car be thoroughly examined or why LE didn't get a subpoena.

I was thinking about that too, and here's my thoughts on why TE didn't want it searched. I think TE was nervous that there may have been pot or a pipe in Heather's car. I think she was a typical 19 year old, and it wouldn't surprise me if she did smoke on occasion. There has been no evidence that she ever smoked pot, (and I really don't see anything wrong if she did smoke) but that's the only reason why I can think that TE didn't want it searched. This is MOO and I don't want to sound like I think Heather did anything wrong, just my theory.
.

 

[geevee]

Here's a little theory on the SM leaving TM/she declared pregnancy idea - SM was going to leave TM and she appealed to him on the grounds of possibly being pregnant, so he went to buy a test to see if that were so and a pack of smokes because it was going to be a long night. TM leaves the house to follow him and scouts all the places she knew HE and SM had met during their affair, and found HE waiting for him at LB (maybe the reason for the what seems like panicked calls to the last number he called her from). During the payphone call he had told Heather to meet him there in an hour so in the meantime he could go home with the test and get that settled, but TM wasn't home when he got there. At 3:00 he finally turns on his phone (maybe to call TM and find out where the heck she is) and shortly after gets calls from HE's phone but doesn't answer right away, when he does answer it's TM telling him what she's done, that she's going to ditch HE's car at PTL and for him to come when she calls again to pick her up and take her back to the vehicle she'd been driving. Any blatant holes/evidence conflicts in this theory?

I don't do cell phones so I don't know this - if you have a number blocked on your phone, can you call it without unblocking it first? Or does the blocking not interfere with your ability to connect with it?

 

[jillycat]

You're probably right, but I took it to mean that BW was asking HE if she was going to go and see him because he wanted to be with her now and was leaving TM-he was free-not that SM was telling her to meet him anywhere.
I could be wrong.

I see what you mean. That's probably something we'll never know because Bri didn't elaborate and we honestly don't know what Heather was really thinking or if she was fully disclosing what she and SM discussed.

 

[LBDunes]

]
Well, yes, that's why I would likely vote NG. It's not even reasonable in the first place to come up with a verdict based on my or anyone else's opinion and prior theory.

I'm getting the impression that there's an assumption that because it was claimed or said in court, it must be fact. I reject that.

BBM - Totally agree it is not even reasonable in the first place to come up with a verdict based on my or anyone else's opinion and prior theory.

You said, "I'm getting the impression that there's an assumption that because it was claimed or said in court, it must be fact. I reject that." ---> I can't argue with that. However, I think in this case you do not think the entirety of the evidence was overwhelming. Any evidence is weighed by the jury whether it is direct or circumstantial. By saying if it was said in court, it must be fact, it kind of sounds like you doubted a lot of the integrity of the evidence. Do you think if initially in this case you voted not guilty could you have been persuaded to change your vote?

 

[TTF14]

BBM - Totally agree it is not even reasonable in the first place to come up with a verdict based on my or anyone else's opinion and prior theory.

You said, "I'm getting the impression that there's an assumption that because it was claimed or said in court, it must be fact. I reject that." ---> I can't argue with that. However, I think in this case you do not think the entirety of the evidence was overwhelming. Any evidence is weighed by the jury whether it is direct or circumstantial. By saying if it was said in court, it must be fact, it kind of sounds like you doubted a lot of the integrity of the evidence. Do you think if initially in this case you voted not guilty could you have been persuaded to change your vote?

I guess I assume being under oath means something to most people and their testimony along with all.of the digital evidence is fact.

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[Cricket99]

I wonder if the black outfit that Bri said is missing is the same outfit she wore on the date.


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No, there is a pic of the date outfit which she sent her Dad & Bri showing her driving the stick shift pickup. Different outfit then described by Bri at trial.

 

[New2MB]

@TTF14 What's on second, who's on third!.....I guess I am now officially leaning towards only 2/two being involved. That being SM and TM, they drive together, after HE is killed, TM drives HE car to PTL.

Why has a body not been found???

No body found because she was put in dumpster (I hate even thinking that) at Longbeards. Dumpster already dumped in landfill by the time phone gps records showed Longbeards. One drives Heather's car back to apt, decides that's not a good idea, drives to PTL for the car drop off and pick up.

 

[Madeleine74]

I'm getting the impression that there's an assumption that because it was claimed or said in court, it must be fact. I reject that.

• The phone calls and times are fact.
• The videos and times are fact.
• The shopping at Walmart, what was purchased, by whom, and the time for that is fact.
• The date Sid bought the new truck is fact.
• The features of that new F150 are fact.
• Heather thinking she might be pregnant due to sudden weight gain is fact (unless you think she was lying to all her friends)
• Heather being on a date that Dec 17th night is fact.
• Picture of Heather taken as she learned to drive stick shift is fact.
• Heather being home in time to receive that 1:35am call from SM on pay phone is fact.
• Heather receiving pictures of SM and someone engaged sexual conduct is fact.
• Heather receiving multiple calls and harassing texts is fact.
• SM calling Heather's cell phone around 1:35am from that pay phone is fact.
• SM parking his black truck behind some dumpsters/bushes and walking through them and up to the pay phone is fact
• The movement of HE's phone and the movement of her vehicle ending up at PTL is fact.
• The DVR/security system being removed and a new one being purchased by the M's is fact.
• The 'black box' SYNC system not having data for Dec 18th is fact.
• Heather calling Bri at 1:44am is fact.
• Heather's vehicle spotted at PTL around 4:15am Dec 18th by an office on duty is fact
• Heather never being seen or heard from again is fact
• Heather's phone never connecting to any tower again after 3:41am Dec 18th is fact
• A black truck matching the description of the F150 appearing on security video twice the morning of Dec 18 and analyzed by a known and regarded expert to match the physical characteristics of SM's truck is fact.
• A black truck matching SM's truck driving by a neighbor's security camera around 3:50am* Dec 18 (*corrected for EST instead of DST) is fact.

 

[bestill]

• The phone calls and times are fact.
• The videos and times are fact.
• The shopping at Walmart, what was purchased, by whom, and the time for that is fact.
• The date Sid bought the new truck is fact.
• The features of that new F150 are fact.
• Heather thinking she might be pregnant due to sudden weight gain is fact (unless you think she was lying to all her friends)
• Heather being on a date that Dec 17th night is fact.
• Picture of Heather taken as she learned to drive stick shift is fact.
• Heather being home in time to receive that 1:35am call from SM on pay phone is fact.
• Heather receiving pictures of SM and someone engaged sexual conduct is fact.
• Heather receiving multiple calls and harassing texts is fact.
• SM calling Heather's cell phone around 1:35am from that pay phone is fact.
• SM parking his black truck behind some dumpsters/bushes and walking through them and up to the pay phone is fact
• The movement of HE's phone and the movement of her vehicle ending up at PTL is fact.
• The DVR/security system being removed and a new one being purchased by the M's is fact.
• The 'black box' SYNC system not having data for Dec 18th is fact.
• Heather calling Bri at 1:44am is fact.
• Heather's vehicle spotted at PTL around 4:15am Dec 18th by an office on duty is fact
• Heather never being seen or heard from again is fact
• Heather's phone never connecting to any tower again after 3:41am Dec 18th is fact
• A black truck matching the description of the F150 appearing on security video twice the morning of Dec 18 and analyzed by a known and regarded expert to match the physical characteristics of SM's truck is fact.
• A black truck matching SM's truck driving by a neighbor's security camera around 3:50am* Dec 18 (*corrected for EST instead of DST) is fact.

Oh how I wish someone like you had been on the Jury!! We would have had 12 G's. Great post! This needs to be sent to the Solicitor.

 

[LBDunes]

I won't use the reply with quote but I just have to say "just the facts, mam" to that one.

 

[Madeleine74]

But wait there's more:

• Sidney lying more than a couple times to police during their investigation of a missing person is fact (and it's on audio as well)
• Sidney locking his truck upon exiting and taking the remote/key with him while at Walmart and then unlocking it upon return is fact (and is seen on video).
• Movement of Heather's phone is fact (and is corroborated by GPS and/or Google locations at every point.)
• Heather's phone never before pinging from the tower near PTL until Dec 18 2013 is fact.
• Heather moving in with Bri and the time frame of that happening is fact.
• Heather interviewing for a new job and getting that new job is fact.
• Heather posting on social media and date/times of that is fact.
• SM & TM being on a trip to CA for upwards of 3 weeks is fact.
• SM's phone pinging off various towers as they travel is fact.
• SM's phone being powered off or unable to transmit at various times is fact.
• SM's phone being powered on and connecting to towers at various dates/times is fact.
• Phone call dates/times/duration/towers pinged are fact.
• Location of phone(s) while phone calls made/received are fact (towers pinged + GPS + Google Locations when available)

 

[Surfside]

SM was going to leave TM and she appealed to him on the grounds of possibly being pregnant, so he went to buy a test to see if that were so...

Any blatant holes/evidence conflicts in this theory?

RSBM: Not a blatant hole, so much as a "what I don't understand" situation. I mentioned this earlier on the Evidence thread. What I don't understand is why SM would've gone to that Wal-Mart if it was a pregnancy test for his wife. The one in Surfside is 4 miles closer to the compound.

 

[New2MB]

Just showing what type of "cigar" was being purchased. It's in the details (as it should be in a case such as this IMO)!

If I was an "expecting father", I certainly wouldn't purchase a "real" cigar from Wal-Mart.

SLED Agent said that SM purchased a "cigar-like cigarette". Whatever that is.

A pregnancy test - $0.88
LTL Cigar - $3.63
SUBTOTAL: $4.51
TAX: $0.41
TOTAL: $4.92

Most Google searches for LTL points to Swisher brand and a few other brands with a quick search. (aka little cigars).

13:41 - https://youtu.be/HqMQmSul1j4?list=PLR2JAGZzf3U29fLzrfr5Wi6WCGE48Nqel
Also, not saying the "cigar" purchase was not a cigar, but screen-cap really looks like a pack of Marlboro Reds or newer 72's to me. :thinking:

Interesting- Sticky Fingers t-shirt. Makes it easy to say that's where he had been working that night.

 

[Truth Prevails]

No body found because she was put in dumpster (I hate even thinking that) at Longbeards. Dumpster already dumped in landfill by the time phone gps records showed Longbeards. One drives Heather's car back to apt, decides that's not a good idea, drives to PTL for the car drop off and pick up.

I'm close to this theory, as well. There is also the retention pond near Longbeard's. Does anyone know if it was searched? The expert mentioned that Heather's phone could have been between the roadway and the retention pond between 3:11 am and 3:15 am.

I think the state did an excellent job at the trial, though; regardless of the outcome. I guess I just can't keep myself from theorizing.

 

[magnolia]

I guess I assume being under oath means something to most people and their testimony along with all.of the digital evidence is fact.

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Bri was under oath and I feel comfortable saying she was probably telling the truth. Heather was not under oath when she called and talked to Bri. Heather was not under oath when she told Bri what Sidney allegedly said. Bri can testify what Heather told her. She can't prove what was said during the SM/HE conversation.

 

[LBDunes]

RSBM: Not a blatant hole, so much as a "what I don't understand" situation. I mentioned this earlier on the Evidence thread. What I don't understand is why SM would've gone to that Wal-Mart if it was a pregnancy test for his wife. The one in Surfside is 4 miles closer to the compound.

I have to say I think the pregnancy maybe should not have been brought up by the prosecution. It really is the only thing in the testimony that was inconclusive. I imagine they felt they needed to provide a motive? I don't think so though. Unless you don't believe the pay call was the lure. I do believe Bri when she said Heather said SM wanted to leave his wife. I believe that was deceptive, when I string all of the other lies and deceptive things SM said.

 

[TTF14]

Bri was under oath and I feel comfortable saying she was probably telling the truth. Heather was not under oath when she called and talked to Bri. Heather was not under oath when she told Bri what Sidney allegedly said. Bri can testify what Heather told her. She can't prove what was said during the SM/HE conversation.

Very true. But I can't think of anything Heather would have said that changed the digital facts we have from the rest of the evening. They are still there.

 

[jillycat]

BBM - Totally agree it is not even reasonable in the first place to come up with a verdict based on my or anyone else's opinion and prior theory.

You said, "I'm getting the impression that there's an assumption that because it was claimed or said in court, it must be fact. I reject that." ---> I can't argue with that. However, I think in this case you do not think the entirety of the evidence was overwhelming. Any evidence is weighed by the jury whether it is direct or circumstantial. By saying if it was said in court, it must be fact, it kind of sounds like you doubted a lot of the integrity of the evidence. Do you think if initially in this case you voted not guilty could you have been persuaded to change your vote?

It was actually the trial that caused more doubt for me (again, doubt that there is sufficient evidence based on the legal standard, not that they aren't involved/responsible). The other travels of Heather that morning, the off the wall pregnancy test theory, Bri's own admission that "they" cared for one another and that SM had never threatened Heather or caused her to be fearful, the fact that she really didn't have any further information on the SM/HE conversation, and my doubt about a PTL crime under a pregnancy test mission - these things are all problems for me.

The reason I said I don't know exactly how I would have voted as a juror is precisely because I think deliberations through that lens, without my experience as a member here, would compel me to fully consider all that is brought to the table by fellow jurors and our discussions. So that means I might have gotten past my doubt and found the evidence sufficient to meet the standard. Or not. I think it would be dishonest and speculative to claim I know what my vote would be from the seat of a deliberations room.

As for the integrity of the evidence, I found all witnesses credible, although I do think Bri was guarding some information and carefully choosing her words. I also thought she was hostile toward KT at times when it didn't seem particularly warranted. It's not that I think the witnesses and the evidence of facts such as the phone trail were lacking integrity (although I think the pregnancy test is a leap). It's that the evidence and testimony had gaps and elements that weren't developed well or were minimized. It was as if, so what if she went to another location in the chain of events after she talked to SM and spent more time there than at the alleged crime scene... ??

I think it's a problem that we know so much about what Heather's phone did but have no footage of her anywhere? Are there no cameras anywhere in the area where her phone was traveling that morning?