Mitigating Factor:Could Casey Have Post-Partum Psychosis?

[yosande]

See, this is what my point is. It seems to me that the people who HAVE had the opportunity to sepnd a lot of time arounf Casey for an extende period of time, did not see anything worng with her, but her more recent friends, saw tons of weird things. That's what confuses me. And, I have a lot of experience with BPD and other personality disorders, both in my professional and personal life. I have seen their extensive family histories and psych reports detaling their childhoods,etc. It usually shows from the time they are young, at least by adolesence. So, I'm just trying to figure it out here.

I don't know anything about mental illness, but I refer to the docs recently released in which two people, Ryan, and Kio were I think the only ones who came forward who knew her when she was younger, and she lived in that town, in that neighborhood, since she was very young. Kio has her own issues, ok, but she does state that they would complain about the parents, apparently Cindy, but I don't know how much of what she said is even believable, and Ryan moved away around middle school IIRC. I believe I read she was a cheerleader, and outgoing, and social. Where are all her friends from the past? Two people. I remember what Amy said happened when Cindy finally found Casey. "What are you doing here." with contempt in her voice, not fear. So, I think long term history is lacking, and not enough info yet. jmo
But teens who are aggressive, and abusive in the home, do you know anything about that? Because I suspect that was happening.

 

[yosande]

Thank you for your kind words. It's hard to open your soul for people to see.

Even LP said he had never seen another person living in such a parallel life before. I think that shows just how ill she really is. I "hid from myself" and I think that is what Casey is doing right now. The pain of what has happened in her life is so tremendous, she is escaping into her own head. How can a person who craved so much social stimulation sit in a jail cell for 31 days and not retreat into herself.

I think her crying in court was just for show b/c the Christina int the phone call said she wasn't showing emotion, so yalla, tears, and such a long time wiping them, and going on and on. Other than anger and disgust, it's the only other "emotion" I've seen from her. She was even pushing her lawyer along when she got out of jail with a look of fear, no it was disgust! At 22 with all those cameras and people yelling, was that really an appropiate reaction? I think she's scary, and her parents should be afraid, because I think she blames her mom for all this happening, after all Cindy was the one who called 911.
okay, another sleepless night, and I've said too much already.

 

[OneLostGrl]

IMO. Casey already had a personaliy disorder prior to getting pg. Even if she had PPD.

I agree, these things don't just pop up out of the blue! Personality disorders are learned behaviors.

Again, I have a hard time seeing how anyone can look at this girl all pretty and made up with nice clothing on. Showing no signs of dysphoria, Cognitive abnormality, problems with information processing or flattening, with a full social life, several boyfriends, dancing at the clubs, speaking on the phone and in police interviews without so much as pressured speech and even entertain the thought that she is psychotic. Aint no Psychosis I have ever seen looking all neat and pretty and put together like that. One of the first signs of Psychosis is social withdrawl.

I get and for the most part agree with what people are saying about everyone experiences mental illness differently but Psychosis is Psychosis, I don't care who has it.. there are certain criteria that go hand in hand with it.

And IMO what is most important to keep in mind is that each of us on this thread that has shared our own story of mental illness, as bad as we got we did not harm our children. And I know, for me at least, that at several points throughout my illness I did meet the legal standard for "insanity".

If this woman were insane I would be able to understand her actions. I "get" insane.. from day one I saw the insanity in Andrea Yates' eyes and knew she had no control over what she had done. But IMO Casey is not even close to being insane, as a matter of fact she is quite the opposite.

 

[Amity]

I posted this before on another thread a few days ago. No responses so maybe I posted it in the wrong area.This looks like a much better place to post it.
Keep in mind, I am NOT sticking up for Casey. Just relating some information that might be helpful to someone who is not familiar with this illness.

Just thinking out loud......

Years ago I had to do some personal research w/r/t Bipolar Disorder.

Back then it was called Manic Depressive Disorder/Illness.

I need to keep updated with latest finds/meds/treatments so I often save Bipolar Illness web sites along with my regular NMHA updates in a folder on my computer, easily accessible.

This has probably been brought up a zillion times w/r/t Casey but after reading the docs and rewatching some video of her, and although I don't profess to be an expert in any way shape or form, I honestly feel in my heart (MHO) that we are seeing a severe case of Mania when it comes to this tragedy of the precious missing Caylee.

I am in NO way making excuses for Casey and as I tell people who ask---
Bipolar is NOT an excuse, but it's a reason.

Even in today's world where we are supposed to be so enlightened there is still a stigma related to mental illness.

In my experiencee I know two families right now who refuse to say the words 'mental illness' or 'Bipolar' when it comes to their adult children.

I know another family who would say the words but finish the sentence with "Not in OUR family".

The stigma is there.
Being a nurse doesn't mean you can come to terms with a mental illness in your own family.
Being someone (Cindy) who wants to make sure they present that perfect family facade, I can see a mental illness in the Anthony family being 'overlooked' or swept under the rug for years and years.

Through the years, talks with specialists, I've learned through many of them that if a person is predisposed to mental illness (runs in the family), especially Bipolar or Depression, sometimes all it takes is a traumatic event, a tragedy, or drastic change in life to bring the illness to the surface.
Could the birth of Caylee be that catalyst for Casey and Bipolar Illness?

I am including parts from several of the many Bipolar websites I have in my Favs List.
Although Bipolar Illness is talked about, I don't know that everyone knows the full array of symptoms, especially those of the Mania.
Bipolar Disorder Symptoms





Mania and Depression are the opposing phases in bipolar disorder.

• Mania: A person in the manic phase may feel indestructible, full of energy, and ready for anything. Other times that person may be irritable and ready to argue with anyone who tries to get in the way.
  • Unrealistic plans, spending sprees, an increase in sexual affairs, or other reckless behavior, also may occur.
  • Less sleep and food than usual are needed.
  • The person with mania can stay up all night but may find that not much was accomplished because he or she was easily distracted.
  • The person in a manic phase may talk very quickly and jump from subject to subject. They often exhibit pressured speech during mania.
  • Self-esteem may be inflated.
  • Decisions regarding business and finances are often made hurriedly and without careful consideration; poor choices may be the result.
  • Clothing choices may also change, and the person in a manic phase may start wearing brighter, more sexual, more flamboyant clothes.
  • These behaviors, which can be quite upsetting, usually prompt a family member to take notice and try to get the person help.
  • Most people who are going through the manic phase of bipolar disorder deny that anything is wrong with them and refuse to see a medical professional.
  • They are grandiose and may have delusions (false ideas) of grandeur (greatness).

• Some people with bipolar disorder cycle between the two extremes every few months or weeks. Other people with bipolar disorder may cycle several times within the same day.
• Signs of mania
  • Increased activity and gestures (pacing, tapping feet)
  • Inflated self-esteem
  • Poor judgment
  • Racing thoughts
  • Decreased need for sleep
  • Poor temper control
  • Irritability
  • Pressured speech: The person speaks very fast, as if his or her mouth can't keep up with the rapid thoughts. The person may be unable to respond to social cues to stop talking.
  • Increased activities with high risk of painful consequences (sexual affairs, gambling, risky investments)
  • Psychotic symptoms
    • Delusions (false beliefs)
    • Hallucinations (seeing or hearing things that aren't real)
    • ---------------------------------------------

Inflated self-esteem or grandiosity
Decreased need for sleep (e.g., one feels rested after only 3 hours of sleep)
More talkative than usual or pressure to keep talking
Flight of ideas or subjective experience that thoughts are racing
Attention is easily drawn to unimportant or irrelevant items
Increase in goal-directed activity (either socially, at work or school, or sexually) or psychomotor agitation
Excessive involvement in pleasurable activities that have a high potential for painful consequences (e.g., engaging in unrestrained buying sprees, sexual indiscretions, or foolish business investments

 

[Trino]

This page contains more than enough ammo to use for Casey's defense. She's gonna need it.

 

[Leviosa]

This page contains more than enough ammo to use for Casey's defense. She's gonna need it.

I agree with you Trino; however, as far as the American people are concerned, moreover, a potential jury, I find it very difficult that folks are going to find compassion and mercy in this case.

Lev

 

[Leviosa]

I agree with you Trino; however, as far as the American people are concerned, moreover, a potential jury, I find it very difficult that folks are going to find compassion and mercy in this case.

Lev

Hey cmj11:

Marvelous, simply magnificent! I really enjoyed your response!

Amity:

Bbrrrraaaaaavo! Bravo! Thank you for the clarity of information and for posting it!

Leviosa :clap:

 

[cjm11]

:blowkiss:to everyone who has posted here and understands! Great enlightenment and education for anyone reading this thread.

 

[gitana1]

The responsibility of having that child could have easily pushed her to
where it was harder to conceal her pathology and the not normal more
noticeable even by casual acquaintances . In narcissists its called narcissitic injury . It takes
a traumatic life event to cause the mask of sanity to fall away

My sibling was posing well - then the death of our father and
it could no longer hide the disorder . We spent more time
together and it became very apparent it was many fries short
of a happy meal.

This makes a lot of sense!

 

[cynsational]

I have several members of my family with diagnosed mental illness: bipolar, paranoid schizophrenia, anxiety, social anxiety, etc; so I am aware of the symptoms and behaviors associated with them.

I don't think Casey is mentally ill. I think she is very spoiled, selfish, irresponsible and a drug addict.

Drug abuse can cause a lot of the symptoms seen with mental illness. None of the mentally ill I have know would have done what it appears she has done.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I posted this before on another thread a few days ago. No responses so maybe I posted it in the wrong area.This looks like a much better place to post it.
Keep in mind, I am NOT sticking up for Casey. Just relating some information that might be helpful to someone who is not familiar with this illness.

Just thinking out loud......

Years ago I had to do some personal research w/r/t Bipolar Disorder.

Back then it was called Manic Depressive Disorder/Illness.

I need to keep updated with latest finds/meds/treatments so I often save Bipolar Illness web sites along with my regular NMHA updates in a folder on my computer, easily accessible.

This has probably been brought up a zillion times w/r/t Casey but after reading the docs and rewatching some video of her, and although I don't profess to be an expert in any way shape or form, I honestly feel in my heart (MHO) that we are seeing a severe case of Mania when it comes to this tragedy of the precious missing Caylee.

I am in NO way making excuses for Casey and as I tell people who ask---
Bipolar is NOT an excuse, but it's a reason.

Even in today's world where we are supposed to be so enlightened there is still a stigma related to mental illness.

In my experiencee I know two families right now who refuse to say the words 'mental illness' or 'Bipolar' when it comes to their adult children.

I know another family who would say the words but finish the sentence with "Not in OUR family".

The stigma is there.
Being a nurse doesn't mean you can come to terms with a mental illness in your own family.
Being someone (Cindy) who wants to make sure they present that perfect family facade, I can see a mental illness in the Anthony family being 'overlooked' or swept under the rug for years and years.

Through the years, talks with specialists, I've learned through many of them that if a person is predisposed to mental illness (runs in the family), especially Bipolar or Depression, sometimes all it takes is a traumatic event, a tragedy, or drastic change in life to bring the illness to the surface.
Could the birth of Caylee be that catalyst for Casey and Bipolar Illness?

I am including parts from several of the many Bipolar websites I have in my Favs List.
Although Bipolar Illness is talked about, I don't know that everyone knows the full array of symptoms, especially those of the Mania.
Bipolar Disorder Symptoms





Mania and Depression are the opposing phases in bipolar disorder.

• Mania: A person in the manic phase may feel indestructible, full of energy, and ready for anything. Other times that person may be irritable and ready to argue with anyone who tries to get in the way.
  • Unrealistic plans, spending sprees, an increase in sexual affairs, or other reckless behavior, also may occur.
  • Less sleep and food than usual are needed.
  • The person with mania can stay up all night but may find that not much was accomplished because he or she was easily distracted.
  • The person in a manic phase may talk very quickly and jump from subject to subject. They often exhibit pressured speech during mania.
  • Self-esteem may be inflated.
  • Decisions regarding business and finances are often made hurriedly and without careful consideration; poor choices may be the result.
  • Clothing choices may also change, and the person in a manic phase may start wearing brighter, more sexual, more flamboyant clothes.
  • These behaviors, which can be quite upsetting, usually prompt a family member to take notice and try to get the person help.
  • Most people who are going through the manic phase of bipolar disorder deny that anything is wrong with them and refuse to see a medical professional.
  • They are grandiose and may have delusions (false ideas) of grandeur (greatness).

• Some people with bipolar disorder cycle between the two extremes every few months or weeks. Other people with bipolar disorder may cycle several times within the same day.
• Signs of mania
  • Increased activity and gestures (pacing, tapping feet)
  • Inflated self-esteem
  • Poor judgment
  • Racing thoughts
  • Decreased need for sleep
  • Poor temper control
  • Irritability
  • Pressured speech: The person speaks very fast, as if his or her mouth can't keep up with the rapid thoughts. The person may be unable to respond to social cues to stop talking.
  • Increased activities with high risk of painful consequences (sexual affairs, gambling, risky investments)
  • Psychotic symptoms
    • Delusions (false beliefs)
    • Hallucinations (seeing or hearing things that aren't real)
    • ---------------------------------------------

Inflated self-esteem or grandiosity
Decreased need for sleep (e.g., one feels rested after only 3 hours of sleep)
More talkative than usual or pressure to keep talking
Flight of ideas or subjective experience that thoughts are racing
Attention is easily drawn to unimportant or irrelevant items
Increase in goal-directed activity (either socially, at work or school, or sexually) or psychomotor agitation
Excessive involvement in pleasurable activities that have a high potential for painful consequences (e.g., engaging in unrestrained buying sprees, sexual indiscretions, or foolish business investments

I'm sorry you were ignored in the other thread you posted your information on. I thank for sharing your ideas.. Though I totally respect your opinion I disagree with your assessment.

I have Bipolar disorder that worsened after I gave birth to my son... it went undiagnosed for several years but my mental decline was quite obvious to anyone who had contact with me.

People with Bipolar became ill, not evil..they become sick, not void of a soul. that is a fact.

If you look at cases of people who were found to be "insane" when killing their child you will find they care about it, their life comes to a stop, they want to DIE because of what they did. They don't go about their life for 31 days living it up, buying new clothes, having sex with new guys, cooking meals for them and the new friends they have found, planning their future. I'm sorry it just doesn't happen.

I'm not saying that I cannot see a person with Bipolar becoming ill enough, angry enough, out of touch with reality enough to kill their child because I can.. it's just that they'd probably kill themselves right afterword because they couldn't live with what they had done.

Often, a person with Borderline personality disorder may be mistaken for Bipolar because of some of the same symptoms.. IMO, if you want to make sense of this woman, check out that illness!

 

[OneLostGrl]

Cindy said sociopath not psychotic - and there is a world of difference

Bi polar is treatable and most have empathy and a conscience

Personality disorders in their severe forms - are not treatable

the person IS a personality disorder not they have one .

Without empathy anything is possible , the inhumane behavior has no
bottom. They do what they think they can get away with. Casey
never expected this amount of attention over her child or her mother to actually call in authorities .
No one can be blamed for not expecting this - Who would ever think this up ? A sane mind with empathy doesnt go there .
The harm these people cause is horrendous. ( people without empathy) You are surrounded by them. They are your neighbors, co workers, family members.

They target the fixers, the loyal, the caring and loving ones .
What they do behind closed doors without any witnesses to
anyone who gets close to them is harrowing.

I agree.

 

[fox1950]

I'm sorry you were ignored in the other thread you posted your information on. I thank for sharing your ideas.. Though I totally respect your opinion I disagree with your assessment.

I have Bipolar disorder that worsened after I gave birth to my son... it went undiagnosed for several years but my mental decline was quite obvious to anyone who had contact with me.

People with Bipolar became ill, not evil..they become sick, not void of a soul. that is a fact.

If you look at cases of people who were found to be "insane" when killing their child you will find they care about it, their life comes to a stop, they want to DIE because of what they did. They don't go about their life for 31 days living it up, buying new clothes, having sex with new guys, cooking meals for them and the new friends they have found, planning their future. I'm sorry it just doesn't happen.

With or without bipolar disorder, I think you are one of the most insightful people that I have ever heard. I wish the world had the understanding that you do about such matters. Your posts make more sense than any others that I have seen.:clap: Great job! I have always admired your posts both on this thread and others.

 

[Amity]

I'm sorry you were ignored in the other thread you posted your information on. I thank for sharing your ideas.. Though I totally respect your opinion I disagree with your assessment.

I have Bipolar disorder that worsened after I gave birth to my son... it went undiagnosed for several years but my mental decline was quite obvious to anyone who had contact with me

Hi OneLostGirl! *waves wildly*

Agree, disagree, whatever....we all know there is something inherently wrong with the thinkings, whether chemical or nurture of this young Mom, Casey.
And what I asked (in bold below) is exactly what you speak of in your post about giving birth to your son and the dx of bipolar years later.

Predisposed- meaning there were instances, plenty of instances of lying, deceit, stealing, etc but the instances were so small (at least in the minds of the people around) that mental illness was the furthest thing from those peoples' minds much less in the mind of the person exhibiting the unusual behavior.

And even if a person finally gets a dx of bipolar, it could be a year or more before the right med, or the right combo of meds (I call it 'the cocktail') is found to work the best with the least side effects.

So, after re-reading your post I think we do agree.....bipolar can lie dormant, or at least, not as active as a full-blown bipolar person until something, one thing or a combo of several life-changing events happens to bring it to the surface.

In the personal case I know, the person was most conniving as a child, too cute for anyone to think she was anything but the most precious of children. Think: The Bad Seed (B & W Movie, only without any killings). As a teen she because rebellious, exibiting reckless behavior so it was nothing for the family to think it was 'normal' for a teen.

Had the family had other teens to use as a measuring stick I'm sure they would have seen their teen was anything but a normal rebellious teenager.
Early 20's started the reckless sexual behavior and the desperate need to be liked/loved no matter what she had to do to get that love/attention.

Finally settled in her third marriage , with young and teen children and her husband was downsized from a job he had held for 27 years.
In 11 months, everything was lost.
Husband couldn't get a job because he was management and they were a dime a dozen at the time. Couldn't get a job at McDonalds (or any other food/retail establishment) because McD felt they would put all the money and time into training and the man would only be using the job as a stepping stone until something better came alone.

Thirteen days after the downsizing annoucement came an emergency hysterectomy and 22 days later the suicide of a loved one.
It was right within that time frame that the behavior went out of control.
She hid it well, very well, too well. That allowed the illness to get worse. Only the closest people to her knew something was very wrong but in the bipolar's mind, they are grand, they are greater than great, nothing is going to get them to see there is something very wrong until the bottom falls out. And sadly sometimes even then they can't see the problem...it's everyone elses problem, not theirs.

As I said earlier, the stigma is sometimes the biggest obstacle when dealing with mental illness....either yourself or that of a loved one.

Whether Casey is Bipolar or as in many cases, has a combo of two, maybe three illnesses, what's going to happen to all her cronies who at the beginning kept saying Casey is fine, no mental illness, blah, blah, blah. Will they now say they weren't professionals so they didn't know and their words can't be used against them?

I've rambled way too long and this is turning into a novel instead of a post! LOL
Thank you OneLostGirl for your heartfelt replies to mine and every other post that discusses mental illness. We need more like you!


From My Earlier Post:
Through the years, talks with specialists, I've learned through many of them that if a person is predisposed to mental illness (runs in the family), especially Bipolar or Depression, sometimes all it takes is a traumatic event, a tragedy, or drastic change in life to bring the illness to the surface.
Could the birth of Caylee be that catalyst for Casey and Bipolar Illness?

 

[Amity]

Hiyas Fox1950
People with Bipolar became ill, not evil..they become sick, not void of a soul. that is a fact.

I So So So agree with you!

 

[Cat13067]

My thoughts are not at all is she post partum depression..she does not have anything but a sociopath diagnosis ..obviously the lies started before Caylee's birth, to her parents. to Jesse, to his family..and I am sure her Friends. No this chick has ice water inside of blood in her viens..she has been lying since she figured out how to..probably age 2 or 3 and hasn't stopped since. She is also only out for herself..many disconnects with family friends..there is no commardary..just doing what one has to do to get by and get over on people. She is a user and has been since she was atleast 5 years old..she found how to manipulate her world to her advantage through lies and subterfuge and she has done so.

Ditto, Ditto, Ditto

 

[chastity]

I have several members of my family with diagnosed mental illness: bipolar, paranoid schizophrenia, anxiety, social anxiety, etc; so I am aware of the symptoms and behaviors associated with them.

I don't think Casey is mentally ill. I think she is very spoiled, selfish, irresponsible and a drug addict.

Drug abuse can cause a lot of the symptoms seen with mental illness. None of the mentally ill I have know would have done what it appears she has done.

I too, have family and friends with mental illness and drug addictions. I am gonna have to respectfully disagree with her being on drugs. She neither looks nor acts like a drug addict.
While I believe you are very right about her being spoiled and selfish,(big time), I still think she is sporting some kind of mental disability. There just has got to be something very wrong with someone who can kill, and go on living and lying,like there just isn't anything in the world bothering her. Human compassion and the ability to love your childre is a natural emotion. What is it that makes her and others unable to do this. I think there is definitely something wrong.Something that could have been controlled if it was recognized and treated properly. The problem IMO is that nobody wanted to recognize it, because that would mean the family was not perfect in the eyes of everyone around them.
Maybe, I just don't want to believe that some people are just evil.

 

[windy91195]

I am sorry if this is inappropriate, but IIRC, Casey mentioned to people that she had a miscarriage. Could she possibly have gotten an elective abortion? There is something called Post Abortion Stress Syndrome.......the mother subconsciously puts herself in positions to punish herself.....depression, writing checks, etc. I haven't looked it up in a while, but it is a very interesting subject. There is a website out there called PASS. I don't think this could be used as a defense. However, it might explain some of her behavior. just an opinion.

If this is innappropriate, i apologize.

wb

 

[magic-cat]

The thing is-she would have displayed symptoms of depression if this was the case-overeating, sleeping, being sad and teary eyed, not attending to personal hygiene, no care of her appearance...NONE of these seem to be included in her regime of "symptoms" so I think that there is not one hope that they will get PPD or PPP to fly. Andrea Yates was ill for YEARS and that was very well medically documented and nobody was telling any lies about it-you know? Everyone said this was wrong and that was wrong...With Casey-she is the mother of the year-she has always been a great mother, she loves Caylee and is her HERO! So if they had problems like that-depression especially-it is HARD to hide...depression sucks the life and drains the energy and saps the will...I see none of this in Casey. She was BUSY!

 

[magic-cat]

I am sorry if this is inappropriate, but IIRC, Casey mentioned to people that she had a miscarriage. Could she possibly have gotten an elective abortion? There is something called Post Abortion Stress Syndrome.......the mother subconsciously puts herself in positions to punish herself.....depression, writing checks, etc. I haven't looked it up in a while, but it is a very interesting subject. There is a website out there called PASS. I don't think this could be used as a defense. However, it might explain some of her behavior. just an opinion.

If this is innappropriate, i apologize.

wb

Your opinion, if stated in a civilized manner-need not be apologized for my dear...No apologies necessary...:hand:

That is interesting-if you find a good link hook us up!