MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 #13 - Chauvin Trial Day 10

[MsBetsy]

Second degree all the way.

Anyone know how long the trial is expected to last?

I think it was said to last a few weeks so it might be around the halfway mark now, or past that, at least until the jury has the case.

 

[Melissa1967]

Since this medical examiner is independent, I'm kind of thinking when the actual Hennepin ME that certified the death takes the stand, the state might lay all this out for them, and ask "with the evidence before you NOW, would you change your cause of death?"

If that worked, it would be a very powerful moment, but I don't know how likely the prosecution would risk it.

 

[JerseyGirl]

Isn’t there a juror getting married in the Summer also?

One had a wedding in May.
He was dismissed after the judge questioned the potential jurors about the settlement agreement.

 

[MsBetsy]

I just have to say this: It is my understanding that the Medical Examiner stated the cause of death was "cardiopulmonary arrest"--- Now, I am no doctor, but in my work in medical malpractice reviewing hundreds of death certificates and autopsies, I have always had a problem with cardiac arrest as being the cause of death. I think it is actually absurd and here is why: what is CP arrest: It means the heart stopped. that is all it means. so, of course when people die, their heart stops: What I want to know is what caused the heart to stop? Additionally in this case the ME ruled this case a homicide. I have not read the autopsy report- so apparently the ME will not testify that Mr. Floyd died from asphyxia, so what is the cause or reason for the homicide?

I think the reason for the homicide is that the subdual, neck and back compression played a significant role in causing Floyd's heart to stop. Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

Since this medical examiner is independent, I'm kind of thinking when the actual Hennepin ME that certified the death takes the stand, the state might lay all this out for them, and ask "with the evidence before you NOW, would you change your cause of death?"

If that worked, it would be a very powerful moment, but I don't know how likely the prosecution would risk it.

If you mean if he might change the COD to a drug overdose, I think that's very unlikely.

 

[missy1974]

That is such an interesting opinion that you have that the victim's families would feel differently. Your post leads me to believe that the family would not want someone to support their case free? Am I understanding this post @missy1974?

And yes, many people all over the world think this case is a huge one to comment on as experts MOO.

Would you consider that many folks want to do altruistic ... but some perhaps don't agree?

I think that every victim's families would want her to think that their case is important enough not to charge for her services.

 

[delilah]

I think the reason for the homicide is that the subdual, neck and back compression played a significant role in causing Floyd's heart to stop. Imo

“cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law-enforcement subdual restraint, and neck compression.”

 

[MsBetsy]

“cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law-enforcement subdual restraint, and neck compression.”

Yes, I think the main difference between the two autopsies is that the first one doesn't mention "mechanical asphyxiation," but that doesn't necessarily mean it was ruled it out. Imo

 

[sds71]

@katrina_pross

Photos are being shown to the jury now to show Floyd's bruising, but are not being broadcasted. They can't be seen on the live feed.

Spectators, which includes pool reporters in the courtroom, are given a copy of the photos as well.

 

[Gibbo214]

I just have to say this: It is my understanding that the Medical Examiner stated the cause of death was "cardiopulmonary arrest"--- Now, I am no doctor, but in my work in medical malpractice reviewing hundreds of death certificates and autopsies, I have always had a problem with cardiac arrest as being the cause of death. I think it is actually absurd and here is why: what is CP arrest: It means the heart stopped. that is all it means. so, of course when people die, their heart stops: What I want to know is what caused the heart to stop? Additionally in this case the ME ruled this case a homicide. I have not read the autopsy report- so apparently the ME will not testify that Mr. Floyd died from asphyxia, so what is the cause or reason for the homicide?

Yes, in the Heather Heyer case where the man drove into the crowd and she died, her immediate cause of death was cardiac arrest, so some people took that as a 'heart attack' and still to this day, claim she died of a heart attack from being obese.

 

[delilah]

Dr Lindsey Thomas is going to be another difficult witness for Nelson to deal with...

 

[Niner]

Cathy Russon Retweeted
Brian G. Buckmire
@BuckEsq
·
21m
Doctor Lindsey Thomas currently describing how #GeorgeFloyd breathing with the bellows function was hindered because of him being handcuffed and positioned on the ground with the weight of the officers on him




Cathy Russon
@cathyrusson
·
5m
#DerekChauvinTrial - Dr. Thomas testifies the cause of death was cardiopulmonary arrest (what's on the autopsy report) explaining everyone dies when their heart stops but both heart and lungs stopped in this case.

Dr. Lindsey says due to the activities of law enforcement in this case, #GeorgeFloyd's death was caused by "subdual, restraint and neck compression. (carefully using exact wording from Dr. Baker's autopsy report)

link: https://twitter.com/cathyrusson


Paul Blume
@PaulBlume_FOX9
·
39m
KEY MOMENT: Dr. Thomas tells jury, she concurs with Dr. Andrew Baker findings -- CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST COMPLICATING LAW ENFORCEMENT SUBDUAL, RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION. Says primary mechanism = asphyxia, low oxygen. #GeorgeFloyd #DerekChauvinTrial




DR. LINDSEY THOMAS ON THE STAND: Veteran forensic pathologist testified, "there was nothing sudden" about #GeorgeFloyd death. And it was not a fentanyl death, "it was not peaceful, sleepy..." She concludes law enforcement actions led to Floyd's death.

MOMENTS AGO: Forensic Pathologist, Dr Lindsey Thomas breaking down #GeorgeFloyd autopsy. She just told the jury, she noted Floyd's meth levels, classifying them as "not particularly high." Again, she dismisses any suggestion this was a drug overdose case.

Judge Cahill tells jury, they are going "old school" by handing out photographs to jurors rather than displaying them on the courtroom video screens. Unclear at this point exactly what these photos contain, but seem to be sensitive autopsy pictures Cahill doesn't want broadcast.

Exhibit #188 (postmortem photo not broadcast) -- Dr. Thomas describing scrapes on #GeorgeFloyd left shoulder consistent with Floyd struggling along the street, fighting to breathe underneath #DerekChauvin & other officers.

link: https://twitter.com/PaulBlume_FOX9

 

[Factoria]

@katrina_pross

Photos are being shown to the jury now to show Floyd's bruising, but are not being broadcasted. They can't be seen on the live feed.

Spectators, which includes pool reporters in the courtroom, are given a copy of the photos as well.

Does anyone know why these photos weren't entered as Exhibits? And, does the fact that they are not official Exhibits mean that they can't be considered during deliberation, despite the accompanying testimony?

EDIT: I misheard... they ARE Exhibits, just not published to the public. So, my new question is: Why weren't they published to the public?

 

[ilovewings]

Yes, in the Heather Heyer case where the man drove into the crowd and she died, her immediate cause of death was cardiac arrest, so some people took that as a 'heart attack' and still to this day, claim she died of a heart attack from being obese.

Apparently many people equate cardiac arrest with heart attack- they just don't understand the difference but a medical examiner surely knows the difference- cardiac arrest as a cause of death, as far as I am concerned is a meaningless cause of death. In cases of alleged medical malpractice, cause of death is a huge element of a case and when a physician states the COD to be cardiac arrest, it is a problem if a plaintiff attorney for example, is trying to prove a cause of death related to medical malpractice. For example, we had a pretty good case: the COD was stated to be "sepsis"- that case had to do with decubitus ulcers which became infected, resulting in sepsis and death. If the pathologist had stated cardiac arrest as the cause of death, that would have been a problem for trying to prove our case.

 

[kaen]

With each description of how he was trying to breathe, the idea of torture at the hands of LEO is clearer and clearer to me. I can't even imagine the terror that this man had for the minutes that he was alert. It is a blessing that he lost consciousness in the face of the inhumane treatment. People would not want this to happen to their loved ones, pets, or the meat they eat. I may just have to step away from this testimony but I feel like it is important to be a witness and voice for Mr. Floyd.

 

[Katerz]

Dr Lindsey Thomas is going to be another difficult witness for Nelson to deal with...

Agreed. Nelson just might as well not waste his time.

 

[Melissa1967]

Since this medical examiner is independent, I'm kind of thinking when the actual Hennepin ME that certified the death takes the stand, the state might lay all this out for them, and ask "with the evidence before you NOW, would you change your cause of death?"

If that worked, it would be a very powerful moment, but I don't know how likely the prosecution would risk it.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I just have to say this: It is my understanding that the Medical Examiner stated the cause of death was "cardiopulmonary arrest"--- Now, I am no doctor, but in my work in medical malpractice reviewing hundreds of death certificates and autopsies, I have always had a problem with cardiac arrest as being the cause of death. I think it is actually absurd and here is why: what is CP arrest: It means the heart stopped. that is all it means. so, of course when people die, their heart stops: What I want to know is what caused the heart to stop? Additionally in this case the ME ruled this case a homicide. I have not read the autopsy report- so apparently the ME will not testify that Mr. Floyd died from asphyxia, so what is the cause or reason for the homicide?

Yes, it needs to be apparently drilled into the jury even more than many think. It is being said again and again and again and again by prosecution that it was due to no oxygen in blood... leading to cardiopulmonary arrest. No oxygen in the brain.. to the heart.. etc.

Your posts shows that this is so repetitive to many, but many still don't understand.

How can the prosecution explain to you and others that low oxygen in the blood leads to death as it is lower and lower and lower? (vs. choking off air trachae)

I don't know MOO, but let us know if it *clicks* eventually

Hopefully the prosecution will continue to drill this in for understanding

MOO

 

[Melissa1967]

If you mean if he might change the COD to a drug overdose, I think that's very unlikely.

I was thinking more of the ME changing to asphyxia, or something like that...

 

[MsBetsy]

Dr Lindsey Thomas is going to be another difficult witness for Nelson to deal with...

Yes, she's linked the direct evidence from the video to the physical evidence (injuries to the thumb knuckle, and wrist) found in the autopsy. She also pointed out the element of stress and adrenaline and how that played a role.