MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #4

[shergal]

I just saw this link on the Johnny Gosch thread.
http://www.whotv.com/news/who-cold-case-marc-allen-112510,0,5591121.story
I'm wondering if anyone knows what city in MN his dad lived in? Marc Allen went missing in 1986, 3 years before Jacob. He was 13.

 

[Sleuthgates]

- I wasn't meaning to stir anything up. I have mainly picked on a few previously mentioned ideas within the thread or other threads and used already mentioned sources
- Obviously all monks are subject to the same relevant laws as anyone, anywhere, irregardless whether a minority thought they weren't or an occasional outsider wanted to exempt them
- I accept the vast majority of the monks on that site & the associated institutions are going to be & have been excellent on a personal basis
- I only thought a few of them way back may have been asked by some outside party questions about the people who lived in areas that they knew. And which parties where. That would have been evidence, a jigsaw piece, and could have pointed to outside parties who may have further clues (reportedly a couple of the priests worked in Raleigh & NY also)
- Because LE probably did enquire into this nearer the time, it is probably fruitless me speculating whether they did or not. I assume I don't have to contact LE - am I right about that? - and am feeling shy of appearing to interfere
- I probably ought to stick to cases where I know more about how the institutions function, in my own country. In any case the pressures on police & everyone involved in such cases everywhere must be horrendous and they need looking up to in that & so much else. I am a slow & muddly thinker. Sorry for meddling in your sadness

 

[shergal]

- I wasn't meaning to stir anything up. I have mainly picked on a few previously mentioned ideas within the thread or other threads and used already mentioned sources
- Obviously all monks are subject to the same relevant laws as anyone, anywhere, irregardless whether a minority thought they weren't or an occasional outsider wanted to exempt them
- I accept the vast majority of the monks on that site & the associated institutions are going to be & have been excellent on a personal basis
- I only thought a few of them way back may have been asked by some outside party questions about the people who lived in areas that they knew. And which parties where. That would have been evidence, a jigsaw piece, and could have pointed to outside parties who may have further clues (reportedly a couple of the priests worked in Raleigh & NY also)
- Because LE probably did enquire into this nearer the time, it is probably fruitless me speculating whether they did or not. I assume I don't have to contact LE - am I right about that? - and am feeling shy of appearing to interfere
- I probably ought to stick to cases where I know more about how the institutions function, in my own country. In any case the pressures on police & everyone involved in such cases everywhere must be horrendous and they need looking up to in that & so much else. I am a slow & muddly thinker. Sorry for meddling in your sadness

You're not meddling, sleuthgates. I just didn't want it to appear that we were trashing the whole university because we focus on their faults. It wouldn't hurt to contact LE, but i don't know if it would do any good. It doesn't appear to me they have looked there much.

 

[shergal]

Found an original article from People magazine, Nov. 1989 on Jacob. (Just 3 weeks after his kidnapping.) Very interesting that even way in the beginning they suspected it was someone local who took Jacob:
"Though they have yet to apprehend any suspects, investigators say the information they have pieced together suggests the kidnapper, who they believe is an area man, is not out to murder the boy."
http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20115979,00.html

 

[chef81]

I always thought it could be one of three things.
1. It had to be someone who knew the parents would be going out that night and leaving the kids alone.
2. It had to be someone who knew the boys were going to the store. Did they call anyone else besides their parents and the neighbor girl (the babysitter) and just so happen to tell them they would be riding their bikes to the store.
3. With the stalker theory, maybe the perp followed Jacob's father, Jacob, and Trevor home from the hockey rink that day. Maybe not all the way to their driveway, but just enough to know what area they live in. I'm not a stalker so I don't know. Maybe he over heard Jerry talking at the rink saying that he would be leaving the kids alone that night, and leaving the perp to think that it would be the perfect time to perv around there house. Anythings possible. Or he could have followed them home another day from a grocery store, restraunt, school, etc. No telling how long Jacob could have been stalked.
I know these theories seem a little far fetched but to me nothing else makes any sense. I don't buy that idea that a perp just happened to be sitting in a ditch on a dark Sunday night hoping that a child would come strolling by. Either way you look at it, this was planned to some extent. Also it has been mentioned that Patty ordered pizza for the kids that night before they left. Did the pizza ever get delievered? So many questions, so little answers.

 

[Leprikawn]

One thing I have learned from the Hornback and Dugard cases, is that a kidnapper has no problem driving a long distance to take a child. I guess its easier to make them your possession if your in a different town. there is not as many suspicions about your victim if your 200 or 300 miles away.

 

[human]

I always thought it could be one of three things.
1. It had to be someone who knew the parents would be going out that night and leaving the kids alone.
2. It had to be someone who knew the boys were going to the store. Did they call anyone else besides their parents and the neighbor girl (the babysitter) and just so happen to tell them they would be riding their bikes to the store.
3. With the stalker theory, maybe the perp followed Jacob's father, Jacob, and Trevor home from the hockey rink that day. Maybe not all the way to their driveway, but just enough to know what area they live in. I'm not a stalker so I don't know. Maybe he over heard Jerry talking at the rink saying that he would be leaving the kids alone that night, and leaving the perp to think that it would be the perfect time to perv around there house. Anythings possible. Or he could have followed them home another day from a grocery store, restraunt, school, etc. No telling how long Jacob could have been stalked.
I know these theories seem a little far fetched but to me nothing else makes any sense. I don't buy that idea that a perp just happened to be sitting in a ditch on a dark Sunday night hoping that a child would come strolling by. Either way you look at it, this was planned to some extent. Also it has been mentioned that Patty ordered pizza for the kids that night before they left. Did the pizza ever get delievered? So many questions, so little answers.

Or the perp could have been outside by his house and heard and saw the kids go by

 

[SelTel]

Has anyone in this forum obtained (or know anyone else who has obtained) any records from the Stearns County Sheriff's investigation of the Wetterling or Guimond disappearances?

I am looking for copies of any investigation records produced by that sheriff's office.

Thank you.

 

[shergal]

Has anyone in this forum obtained (or know anyone else who has obtained) any records from the Stearns County Sheriff's investigation of the Wetterling or Guimond disappearances?

I am looking for copies of any investigation records produced by that sheriff's office.

Thank you.

I've never heard of anyone having access to records. But here are some sources you could check with who have done extensive research on both Jacob and Josh:

http://www.behindthepinecurtain.com/wordpress/

Aubrey Immelman at:
http://www.immelman.us/news/jacobs-kidnapping-comes-of-age/

or the St. Cloud Times at:
http://www.sctimes.com/

 

[SelTel]

There is no statute of limitations for kidnapping in MN, so the Wetterling investigation could continue for another 21 years, or indefinitely. The investigation of the disappearance of Joshua Guimond could continue for another eight years, or indefinitely.

At what point does law enforcement owe the public some transparency into what has and has not been done over the past 21 years in an effort to resolve a missing person's case?

The only way to know whether the Stearns County Sheriff has left no stone unturned in the Wetterling case (over 21 years since disappearance) or the Guimond case (over 8 years since disappearance) is to bring the sheriff’s investigation records out into the sunlight.

If the sheriff’s office refuses a request under the MN Government Data Practices Act using the argument that both cases are still active, then it might be time to get creative.

For example, a plaintiff like Jerry McCarthy, who is suing St. John’s Abbey for sex abuse in a civil case, (Jeramiah D. McCarthy vs Order of St Benedict, St John's Abbey, St John's Preparatory School, Case No. 73-CV-09-12859) or other similar plaintiffs (such as those in John Doe HK vs ORDER OF ST BENEDICT OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, St John's Abbey, Bruce Wollmering, John Kelly, Finnian McDonald, Case No. 73-CV-09-13201, or John Doe SS, John Doe CS vs The Order of St Benedict, St John's Preparatory School, Raymond Francisco Schulte, Case No. 73-CV-10-5339) can request access to the sheriff’s investigative files to assist in bringing their civil suits. In this situation, a judge (not the sheriff) decides whether and to what extent access should be granted. Then, pursuant to Minnesota Statutes 13.82(7), any investigative data presented as evidence in court is public.

Starting to get the picture?

 

[shergal]

There is no statute of limitations for kidnapping in MN, so the Wetterling investigation could continue for another 21 years, or indefinitely. The investigation of the disappearance of Joshua Guimond could continue for another eight years, or indefinitely.

At what point does law enforcement owe the public some transparency into what has and has not been done over the past 21 years in an effort to resolve a missing person's case?

The only way to know whether the Stearns County Sheriff has left no stone unturned in the Wetterling case (over 21 years since disappearance) or the Guimond case (over 8 years since disappearance) is to bring the sheriff’s investigation records out into the sunlight.

If the sheriff’s office refuses a request under the MN Government Data Practices Act using the argument that both cases are still active, then it might be time to get creative.

For example, a plaintiff like Jerry McCarthy, who is suing St. John’s Abbey for sex abuse in a civil case, (Jeramiah D. McCarthy vs Order of St Benedict, St John's Abbey, St John's Preparatory School, Case No. 73-CV-09-12859) or other similar plaintiffs (such as those in John Doe HK vs ORDER OF ST BENEDICT OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, St John's Abbey, Bruce Wollmering, John Kelly, Finnian McDonald, Case No. 73-CV-09-13201, or John Doe SS, John Doe CS vs The Order of St Benedict, St John's Preparatory School, Raymond Francisco Schulte, Case No. 73-CV-10-5339) can request access to the sheriff’s investigative files to assist in bringing their civil suits. In this situation, a judge (not the sheriff) decides whether and to what extent access should be granted. Then, pursuant to Minnesota Statutes 13.82(7), any investigative data presented as evidence in court is public.

Starting to get the picture?

Good idea, SelTel. I hope some of these plaintiff's do that and make those records public.

There was an article on Jacob today (mostly re-hash) in the St. Cloud Times because the search at DR's farm was voted the top local story for 2010. Link here if you want to read the story and comments.
http://www.sctimes.com/article/2010...ng-answers-sought-after-summer-search-of-farm

It does say they still are waiting on results from those items (umbrella stand, trunk, etc.) that were taken from Rassier's farm. They sure do poke along on these results and investigations.

 

[concentric]

Still wondering about this case. Any recent information?
http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=872315


STEARNS COUNTY, Minn. -- As the head of the Police Explorer program, Phillip Meemken mentored young people interested in law enforcement, but investigators say off the job he was sexually abusing kids.

Meemken, who has spent 18 years with the Stearns County Sheriff's Office, now faces 25 criminal charges including criminal sexual conduct and furnishing alcohol to minors.

Investigators say on numerous occasions over a year, Meemken gave beer and liquor to 3 teenage victims, then sexually abused them while they were drunk.

Two of those victims were blood relatives.

The teenagers told police when they confronted Meemken he said he was seeing a psychiatrist and felt "sick about what he'd done.

But Meemken denied the abuse to investigators, saying he doesn't remember it, and only admitted giving alcohol to the victims two times.

Meemken made a court appearance in Stearns County this morning.

The Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, prosecutor and Meemken's defense attorney are not commenting on the case.

 

[midwestphd]

Hi,
I'm new here but have been following this case for a long time and have read all of the posts in the various threads. I have some theories.

I am interested in discussing the reflective vest that Jacob was wearing that night, because I think it could provide some insight as to what type of escape route the perp might have taken. The vest is reflective; it is meant to draw attention to someone working in a dark area. Some have argued that the perp might have escaped on horseback or travelled on foot with Jacob. If this is the case, why not have Jacob ditch the vest at the point of the abduction? The perp took the time to have the boys lie down and identify their ages. Demanding that Jacob leave the vest behind, right with the bikes, would have made sense if the perp was planning to travel a ways outside--either on foot, horseback, or whatever. This leads me to believe that the perp must have expected to get inside--whether into a car or a building--very quickly. The perp was not too worried about being seen. Maybe I'm making too much of this, but it's something new to consider.

Second, a man named Al Rassier was mayor of St. Joseph for many years, including at the time of the abduction. He was just defeated last November. Al is the same age as DR. Does anyone have any info on whether or not these two men are related? Cousins, perhaps? If a relative of DR was mayor at the time of the abduction, this might explain why LE was hesitant to "tear up" the family farm at the time of the abduction. I haven't been able to find a good answer to this question about a possible relationship between Al Rassier and DR.

Third, statement analysis of DR's recent interviews. I have been researching statement analysis of other famous cases, including JonBenet Ramsey and Lacey Peterson. There is a great website here http://www.statementanalysis.com/cases
One thing that I've picked up on is that repeated denials of guilt is often a sign of deception. For example, repeating the word "no" several times when asked whether or not one is guilty. DR does this in part I of his interview with Julie Nelson; he tells Nelson that he said "no, no, no" when Patty Wetterling asked him if he had anything to do with Jacob's disappearance. Here is the link:
http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=875911&catid=396
Saying "I had absolutely nothing" is also a sign of deception, as the word "absolutely" is viewed as an attempt to convince listeners of something. Scott Peterson used the same kind of language.

Also, attempting to focus on the "real" killer or perp is another indicator of deception. Remember OJ Simpson insisting that he wanted to find the "real" killer? Scott Peterson did the same kind of thing when discussing his wife Lacey's disappearance. The URL above goes through these examples if anyone is interested. DR tends to emphasize that he wants to "help" with the case (at least now, 20+ years later) and he tries to focus on hope that Jacob might still be alive. Scott Peterson tries to do the same thing in many interviews he gave.

I'm not suggesting that any of this proves that DR is the perp, but his statements are very interesting and potentially revealing. He is the only person with reasonable means and opportunity to commit the crime, IMO. Look forward to discussing more.

 

[chef81]

All of your theories are really good. Especially the first one regarding Jacob's reflective vest. I never really put much thought into the vest, or what they were wearing in particular. Also as far as DR goes, I have to agree with you. Alot of his answers are way off and rather odd, and also I notice his alibi changes way too much. In the interview that happened 6 or so years ago, I could have sworn he mentioned nothing about going outside and checking the backyard when he heard his family dog barking, but in the recent interviews we learn that he actually went outside and checked around his home. I'm not saying he is a perp either, but if he really is I think that LE already knows, but is just trying to find the one last piece of evidence to take him down. I don't feel like he is the perp, but I definately think he knows more than he's telling on.

Also I mentioned in my last post that Jacob's mother Patty ordered pizza for the boys before her and her husband left for the evening. Did the pizza guy ever show up? Did they question any pizza delievery guys that night? Did Patty or her husband mention to anyone else that they would be leaving the boys alone for the evening. Just so many unanswered questions. This case really got quiet since the last lab results came in, and if I'm not mistaken I think were still waiting on results from a few items taken from DR's property. I hope were on the verge of cracking the case soon. If you have any other theories let me know. I'm trying to keep this case alive as much as possible.

 

[margaret_diane]

Hi,
I'm new here but have been following this case for a long time and have read all of the posts in the various threads. I have some theories.

I am interested in discussing the reflective vest that Jacob was wearing that night, because I think it could provide some insight as to what type of escape route the perp might have taken. The vest is reflective; it is meant to draw attention to someone working in a dark area. Some have argued that the perp might have escaped on horseback or travelled on foot with Jacob. If this is the case, why not have Jacob ditch the vest at the point of the abduction? The perp took the time to have the boys lie down and identify their ages. Demanding that Jacob leave the vest behind, right with the bikes, would have made sense if the perp was planning to travel a ways outside--either on foot, horseback, or whatever. This leads me to believe that the perp must have expected to get inside--whether into a car or a building--very quickly. The perp was not too worried about being seen. Maybe I'm making too much of this, but it's something new to consider.

I just wanted to thank you for this point - what a remarkable, yet painfully obvious observation! I can't believe this never crossed my own mind earlier!

In regards to statement analysis, I have made the same observations of DR's statements, and raised similar concerns regarding his overall presentation when providing interviews on the subject (both verbal and non verbal cues).

I'm not ready to convict DR yet -- but I still suspect he might have more information which he has not yet provided to LE. Its possible he might not even realize that he HAS more information -- what he knows might be just a passing thought about something he might have seen / heard that day that he blew off as being inconsequential and irrelevant to the matter at hand. Unfortunately, we'll never know. Worse, HE may never know.

Does anyone happen to know when the further tests on objects seized might be available?

 

[shergal]

Hi,
I'm new here but have been following this case for a long time and have read all of the posts in the various threads. I have some theories.

I am interested in discussing the reflective vest that Jacob was wearing that night, because I think it could provide some insight as to what type of escape route the perp might have taken. The vest is reflective; it is meant to draw attention to someone working in a dark area. Some have argued that the perp might have escaped on horseback or travelled on foot with Jacob. If this is the case, why not have Jacob ditch the vest at the point of the abduction? The perp took the time to have the boys lie down and identify their ages. Demanding that Jacob leave the vest behind, right with the bikes, would have made sense if the perp was planning to travel a ways outside--either on foot, horseback, or whatever. This leads me to believe that the perp must have expected to get inside--whether into a car or a building--very quickly. The perp was not too worried about being seen. Maybe I'm making too much of this, but it's something new to consider.

Second, a man named Al Rassier was mayor of St. Joseph for many years, including at the time of the abduction. He was just defeated last November. Al is the same age as DR. Does anyone have any info on whether or not these two men are related? Cousins, perhaps? If a relative of DR was mayor at the time of the abduction, this might explain why LE was hesitant to "tear up" the family farm at the time of the abduction. I haven't been able to find a good answer to this question about a possible relationship between Al Rassier and DR.

Third, statement analysis of DR's recent interviews. I have been researching statement analysis of other famous cases, including JonBenet Ramsey and Lacey Peterson. There is a great website here http://www.statementanalysis.com/cases
One thing that I've picked up on is that repeated denials of guilt is often a sign of deception. For example, repeating the word "no" several times when asked whether or not one is guilty. DR does this in part I of his interview with Julie Nelson; he tells Nelson that he said "no, no, no" when Patty Wetterling asked him if he had anything to do with Jacob's disappearance. Here is the link:
http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=875911&catid=396
Saying "I had absolutely nothing" is also a sign of deception, as the word "absolutely" is viewed as an attempt to convince listeners of something. Scott Peterson used the same kind of language.

Also, attempting to focus on the "real" killer or perp is another indicator of deception. Remember OJ Simpson insisting that he wanted to find the "real" killer? Scott Peterson did the same kind of thing when discussing his wife Lacey's disappearance. The URL above goes through these examples if anyone is interested. DR tends to emphasize that he wants to "help" with the case (at least now, 20+ years later) and he tries to focus on hope that Jacob might still be alive. Scott Peterson tries to do the same thing in many interviews he gave.

I'm not suggesting that any of this proves that DR is the perp, but his statements are very interesting and potentially revealing. He is the only person with reasonable means and opportunity to commit the crime, IMO. Look forward to discussing more.

Hi Midwest, and welcome to the discussion. Excellent point on the reflective vest, I've never heard that mentioned before.

AR (that you asked about above) is DR's cousin. I've seen comments on various news sites from posters who were wondering about the AR connection because AR's son looks so much like Jacob. They seemed to think Jacob had somehow been kidnapped by DR or a friend of DR's and given to this cousin. I won't name that son here, but he is the same age as Jacob, and his name starts with a J also, and if you go to AR's website and check out his pics at the top, his son is a dead ringer for Jacob.
(edited to remove link because I'm not sure if it's allowed.)
It's just an odd coincidence, I guess. IMO, It's not really possible, because AR still lives in St. Joe, and I'm sure the Wetterlings would have noticed their son living with some other family. As far as LE being influenced by the mayor/cousin, they would have probably been more influenced (if they were - not saying they were) by DR's own dad who is very influential in the community and active in the parish.

I agree with your 3rd point about statement analysis, IMO, either DR knows something, did something, or just enjoys the attention he was getting, even though it was negative attention.

 

[human]

Midwest-wow. Interesting indeed.

Seltel-I hope that you can go somewhere with your ideas.

 

[Solitary Truth Sleuth]

I am new here, but have followed this case. I have looked into the relation between DR and Al Rassier. If there is one it is generations ago. I am actually interested in all the other Rassiers in that family that might have had access to the farm. Robert and Rita had 9 children. Also, Robert has a brother Louis. I still keep replaying the audio tape where Michael Bahner mentioned that someone named Lou actually abducted Jacob. They sound so authentic- I really can't get it out of my head. I read that the tapes were done by a bail bondsman, and that they did not know they were being taped. In a small town everyone knows each other. It is not impossible that there is a connection between the Rassiers and the Bahners. As for who knew the boys would be traveling that night; anyone who noticed them on their way to the Tom Thumb, would have had time to get in position for their return.

 

[Solitary Truth Sleuth]

I want to clarify to an earlier post that Jerry Wetterling is the biological parent of Jacob. Jerry and Patty were married in Ramsey county in 1973. Jacob was born in 1978. Also, I am still unable to find a family connection between DR and AR- the mayor, but will keep looking. I am wondering if anyone who has listened to the audio tapes has an opinion on whether they sound authentic? Also, does anyone know anything more about the buildings that burned on the Rassier farm?

 

[shergal]

zeptepi: Al is DR's cousin as far as I know. If you look at his picture, you can see the family resemblance with DR. This is the St. Joe town website with pics of AR and family at the top. (Even though a new mayor is now elected, those are still AR's old pics on there.)
http://www.cityofstjoseph.com/index...91}&DE={E4EA80AB-1F5E-4B61-AF76-A252CF19D528}

I didn't know DR had so many siblings, I am only aware of 3 brothers. One lives on that piece of land in front of the farm, one lives in the Twin Cites and is a runner also. Not sure what the other brother does.

Chef: Sorry I missed your pizza guy question earlier. That's a good question, I would certainly think they would have checked who delivered pizza or if it ever came. Maybe they had the pizza before they left to get tapes at Tom Thumb?