MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #5

[puppyraiser]

puppyraiser....I have not seen the first sketch before....is this something new or a new connection of some sort?

Sketch of person who attempted to take a child recently in another country. The height and physical description caught my attention. Plus if one were to age the sketch by 20 years, especially the third in the series of three- it might account for more puffiness in the facial features, maybe? The ears look similar to me.

 

[human]

As you know ad naseum, I walk in the country every night. What I have noticed is how cars with headlights disappear and reappear as they are coming up hills where I live. If I had not seen the car a few seconds before, I would have no clue there is a car. And this is with cars that have their brights on.

Think about the double yellow lines on the road that indicate ,"no passing". That is because cars truly disappear from sight.

With the hill described by ELOC, this would eliminate visibility for a lot of area as well as of distance of watching the children, even though they had flashlights or a flashlight. Don't know how many flashlights.

Quote from ELOC
4. I don’t believe this has been mentioned before, but there is a fairly steep hill that begins climbing at about E. Baker St, and rises about 20’ or so as you drive south. You cannot see any hint of the DR property or trees on your left until you’re about 200’ or so from the property. The DR property is on your left after you climb the hill. Judging from the appearance of homes in the area, I would guess there was very little development south of E. Baker St in 1989. I’m not sure E. Baker St actually existed at the time (maybe a local could confirm this?). It is quite possible, even likely, that the abductor(s) were watching the streets near the Tom Thumb, and would have seen Jacob, Trevor, and Aaron come from the south. And in turn, knowing they were likely to go back they way.

 

[cGorg]

As you know ad naseum, I walk in the country every night. What I have noticed is how cars with headlights disappear and reappear as they are coming up hills where I live. If I had not seen the car a few seconds before, I would have no clue there is a car. And this is with cars that have their brights on.

Think about the double yellow lines on the road that indicate ,"no passing". That is because cars truly disappear from sight.

With the hill described by ELOC, this would eliminate visibility for a lot of area as well as of distance of watching the children, even though they had flashlights or a flashlight. Don't know how many flashlights.

Quote from ELOC
4. I don’t believe this has been mentioned before, but there is a fairly steep hill that begins climbing at about E. Baker St, and rises about 20’ or so as you drive south. You cannot see any hint of the DR property or trees on your left until you’re about 200’ or so from the property. The DR property is on your left after you climb the hill. Judging from the appearance of homes in the area, I would guess there was very little development south of E. Baker St in 1989. I’m not sure E. Baker St actually existed at the time (maybe a local could confirm this?). It is quite possible, even likely, that the abductor(s) were watching the streets near the Tom Thumb, and would have seen Jacob, Trevor, and Aaron come from the south. And in turn, knowing they were likely to go back they way.

not sure what your point is exactly human, but I assume it has to do with being able to see the boys. I alluded to this earlier. It works both ways. A car passing the boys BEFORE the hill going south would disappear from the boys vantage point and could thus park in DR's driveway and the boys be unaware of it. And relating to Ben's account of seeing MB + RB emerging from the woods....Ben would have been at the top of the hill thus giving him a vantage point(my question is one of how much light was available). If you ever try google earth, you can actually see this. I do agree with ELOCsoul's supposition that a perp could have been watching the streets near the Tom Thumb and make the calculated choice that the boys would return south.

 

[human]

not sure what your point is exactly human, but I assume it has to do with being able to see the boys. I alluded to this earlier. It works both ways. A car passing the boys BEFORE the hill going south would disappear from the boys vantage point and could thus park in DR's driveway and the boys be unaware of it. And relating to Ben's account of seeing MB + RB emerging from the woods....Ben would have been at the top of the hill thus giving him a vantage point(my question is one of how much light was available). If you ever try google earth, you can actually see this. I do agree with ELOCsoul's supposition that a perp could have been watching the streets near the Tom Thumb and make the calculated choice that the boys would return south.

All I can suggest is that you go where it is dark, has a hill , and walk a mile.

If the perp is watching the kids at the Tom Thumb, please calculate the distance and notice where the store was.

All I can say is without going to the actual site because people do not live there, you will have to go to a simulation spot to see something like this in real life and see the reality of different scenarios

 

[cGorg]

Tire tracks....sorry to belabor this issue but the little information I've read regarding Kevin's tire tracks + Jacob's footprints still bother me. Something's amiss or I am not understanding it.
1. Gravel driveways: If they are older they will have been compacted to the point where sometimes a tire track or footprint is not visible or faintly so. Or, they can be a mix of sandy material interspersed with rocky material thus tracks + footprints are intermittent. Or another layer of new material could be added thus impressionable.
2. Kevin's tire tracks + Jacob's footprints: I have only seen 1 picture of this and both tracks + prints look 'fresh' so the driveway must have been impressionable.
3. 1989 picture of Investigator Steve Mund spraying the footprints(I assume to make a cast)....hard to tell for sure but it looks like there's tire tracks coming + going. Has anybody seen any other pics? Does Al Garber's report speak about the tracks? How could it be that there were only ONE set of tracks? And why only ONE set of footprints? Seems inplausible that just the perp's footprints were obliterated by 1 car...nobody walks a tightrope while walking....feet are spaced apart from each other.
4. DR's account of cars coming + going that day....where are the tracks? Is it possible all the cars drove exactly over the previous tracks? Doesn't seem possible. DR also mentioned in Joy's blog that there were tracks going round near the light pole but that a bunch of horses(I assume while searching) were walking all over them.
5. This case went from 1989-2004 with the idea that a car was used in the abduction. Then in 2004-present the case turned 180 degrees to a perp on foot. This turn of events based on Kevin coming forward.
6. If DR is telling the truth, and there was a tan car in the afternoon and a dark car in the evening.....where are the tracks? Is there pictures of multiple tracks? Also, again in Joy's blog, DR mentions that he went to work Oct 23 and the end of the driveway was taped off and he was told to drive his car through the ditch up and on to the paved road. So, the ditch was driveable. Also, there appears in the 1989 photos that there was a fenceline on the north side of the driveway and the east side of 16th...this also appears on 2013 google earth.
7. The 'tapes' again....if these are to be believed and 2 cars were on DR's driveway...then where are the tracks? OR....did they veer off the pavement into the grass and not use the driveway? If that is the case, then who was in the dark car that DR saw circle in his driveway?

Am I making too much of this? Or is there some other source of information dealing with the tracks + footprints? Seems as if an entire case is being built on ONE set of tracks.

 

[cGorg]

All I can suggest is that you go where it is dark, has a hill , and walk a mile.

If the perp is watching the kids at the Tom Thumb, please calculate the distance and notice where the store was.

All I can say is without going to the actual site because people do not live there, you will have to go to a simulation spot to see something like this in real life and see the reality of different scenarios

Good idea

 

[buffetoflies]

Wow, you guys have really been sleuthing lately!
Great find about DR's facebook friends 'interests'.

 

[cGorg]

All I can suggest is that you go where it is dark, has a hill , and walk a mile.

If the perp is watching the kids at the Tom Thumb, please calculate the distance and notice where the store was.

All I can say is without going to the actual site because people do not live there, you will have to go to a simulation spot to see something like this in real life and see the reality of different scenarios

human...I think ELOCsoul was saying that if a perp(s)were near the Tom Thumb but far enough away from it to see the boys coming north on 16th then they would assume that the boys would go back the same way. A calculated assumption. And yes, one cannot see from the Tom Thumb down 16th to the south or farther south beyond the hill, the Tom Thumb being east of 16th.

 

[Cappuccino]

There was a map posted in one of the earlier threads which illustrated this point. There is a turn off just on the main road between the opening to the road the boys cycled out of and the Tom Thumb store. Anyone parked there could have seen them cycle out of that road to the store and simply turned their car into the road from which he saw them cycle, drove down it till he found the first turn off, parked there and lain in wait.

In 1989, the first turn off down that road would have been the Rassier driveway.

Coincidentally, I was watching The FBI Files last night, it was the episode about Shawn Hornbeck's abduction. They spent a fair amount of time recounting how a local man was an early POI to LE investigating his disappearance, and the various reasons why. Watching it only made me more suspicious of honing in on DR, or indeed any of the other people we've discussed so far. This, like Shawn's abduction, could have been done by someone who had no criminal record, no ties to the locality, and no particular reason for choosing that road on that evening. Just an opportunistic crime carried out by someone who is completely under the radar. The FBI psychologist interviewed called them "grabbers" - paedophiles who don't have either the opportunity or the social skills to groom children, and may spend years repressing/denying their urges till one day they just snap.

 

[human]

Are people aware of how far the DR driveway is from the Tom Thumb? And can someone please explain to me how you can see around an angle from the Tom Thumb? How far is that angle from the straightway road that also includes a hill?

Why would someone several blocks away think it was children walking down the road?

I wonder what the surface of the Rassier driveway was? They may call it gravel, but mine is limestone. And what class of gravel, if it is gravel? The size of the rocks determine the gravel class.

We went for limestone because otherwise our driveway was mud with gravel.

I noticed the reference to driving over the ditch. Interesting. I wonder how deep that ditch was.

 

[Cappuccino]

Are people aware of how far the DR driveway is from the Tom Thumb? And can someone please explain to me how you can see around an angle from the Tom Thumb?

I don't understand the relevance of these two questions. What am I missing?

 

[cGorg]

Is this what you mean Cappuccino?

 

[cGorg]

If the perp or perps saw the boys at Tom Thumb and knew who they were, they could have easily gotten ahead of them while the boys were in the store.

 

[Cappuccino]

Thanks for posting the map, cGorg. That makes it easier for me to explain what I mean. My theory doesn't have the perp where you've marked it on the map though - if you look at the top of the country road where the boys turned right, about half way between there and the curve in the road before the Tom Thumb, there's another right turn. That's the road I'm talking about.

Although looking at that map, he could also have just been parked by the side of road.

 

[human]

Is this what you mean Cappuccino?

That map is clear to me.

How does anyone see from the Tom Thumb to the boy's path? We are not talking inches or feet.

I simply do not undrstand how anyone thinks someone can see adound corners or over huge areas of trees, etc.

My question is the distance.

How far is it to the DR driveway? How far is it from the Tom Thumb to the straightaway?

 

[ELOCsoul]

That map is clear to me.

How does anyone see from the Tom Thumb to the boy's path? We are not talking inches or feet.

I simply do not undrstand how anyone thinks someone can see adound corners or over huge areas of trees, etc.

My question is the distance.

How far is it to the DR driveway? How far is it from the Tom Thumb to the straightaway?

If the perp knew who the Wetterling boys were, or Aaron - then they would not have to had seen where the boys came from. Instead, they would have known where they lived, and could have headed to DR's driveway knowing the boys would have to pass by that way. Not saying that's what happened, but it certainly is a possibility.

 

[cGorg]

That map is clear to me.

How does anyone see from the Tom Thumb to the boy's path? We are not talking inches or feet.

I simply do not undrstand how anyone thinks someone can see adound corners or over huge areas of trees, etc.

My question is the distance.

How far is it to the DR driveway? How far is it from the Tom Thumb to the straightaway?

human...you're over thinking it. a person cannot see from Tom Thumb to the DR driveway. that's not the point. the point is a perp in a car hanging around the Tom Thumb trolling could have seen the boys turning east off 16th and made the assumption they would head back south on 16th. Of course, if the perp did not know who the boys were then the assumption could be wrong as the perp wouldn't know which neighborhood they actually came from. however, given the reports from residents of the community in the weeks before the abduction, suspicious cars were noticed in various locations on 90th + 91st (16th) avenues so it's reasonable to theorize that the people in these cars could have been at Tom Thumb or on one of the streets and observed the boys on their way to the store.

 

[ELOCsoul]

cGorg, I found this on the saintautumn blog - this sounds to me like the "new cop" who was sitting across form Tom Thumb was there expressly to stop the Wetterlings when they turned into their road and drive them home.

"We finally arrived at our road and it was a nightmare. There was a squad car, and the police stopped us and drove us home."

I also saw another mention of the guy arrested for burglary who was a previously convicted sex offender. (I'm not sure if saintautumn is an earlier blog of Joy's or done by someone else that posts here at WS, they could just be updating it as we find new information here.)

"Eighteen months after Jacob’s disappearance a man was arrested for burglary in St. Cloud, Minnesota. Upon running a criminal background check, law enforcement officials discovered that the man was a previously convicted sex offender. Further, the St. Joseph police learned that in October, 1989 the man had lived closer to Jacob’s abduction site than did the Wetterling family; yet, local police had not been aware of his presence within the community. In fact, unbeknownst to local police at the time of Jacob’s disappearance, there were halfway houses in the St. Joseph area that housed sex offenders upon their release from prison. This information was disconcerting because during the search it was commonly assumed that Jacob’s kidnapper had attempted similar behavior in the past. The St. Joseph police lamented that prior knowledge of the presence of these previously convicted sex offenders may have prevented Jacob’s abduction in the first place."

The part I have bolded below - it sounds like there were only one set of tire tracks in the driveway. Because once Kevin told them he had left the tracks they "abandoned the idea of a car taking Jacob." "THE" tracks implies there was only one set, IMO. So I think the discrepancy we're seeing in the timeline shows there were no other fresh tire tracks in the driveway.

"In 2003 the long held belief that the abductor took Jacob away in a car was abandoned when a man named Kevin, came forward to tell the police he had left the tire tracks in the driveway after hearing about the abduction on a police scanner and rushed to the scene in his car leaving the tire tracks behind. The driver told authorities that in 1989 he had given his name and explanation for being there to an officer at the abduction scene. No record of the conversation exists though. Also, the boys did not see or hear a vehicle that night of the abduction, so the police believe that the abductor got away with Jacob on foot, which would make the abductor someone local."

Info in quote marks taken from... http://saintautumn.wordpress.com/

However - the conditions were very dry, and on a well traveled driveway the tendency is for vehicles to follow the same path. It's very likely that the last set of tire prints on a driveway like this are the only set fresh enough to see clearly.

 

[ELOCsoul]

Tire Tracks:

A farm driveway would have alot of tire tracks. If DR was home all day and had 1 saxophone lesson with a student then what does that leave us?
1. Saxophone lesson student....I assume a parent or the student drove a car.
2. Tan colored crazy car in the afternoon
3. Dark blue or black car near the abduction time.
4. Kevin's car after the abduction

That's 4 cars in 1 day. LE made its decision that the perp was on foot after Kevin came forward in 2003(4?). What about the other tire tracks? Were there any? Let's say for the sake of argument that Kevin never drove his car onto the driveway....would LE have still pursued the car theory based on other tire tracks? Certainly there were other tracks there...at least the saxophone students car. What made Kevin's tire tracks decisive....decisive enough to pursue a different theory altogether?

And actually - IF the #1 student was driven to the lesson by a parent, then there could have been 2 trips through the driveway by that car. One to drop off, one to pick up.

 

[cGorg]

However - the conditions were very dry, and on a well traveled driveway the tendency is for vehicles to follow the same path. It's very likely that the last set of tire prints on a driveway like this are the only set fresh enough to see clearly.

Yes, that makes sense BUT:

1. perps footprints....any ideas what happened to them? Isn't it unrealistic to think Kevin's tires drove exactly over those footprints?
2. IF DR is telling the truth and 2 of these cars at least took different circular paths turning around...there would be multiple tracks near the farmhouse. I don't understand his car theory....just saying.
3. I would think that cars coming off the pavement don't always use the same turning radius-not exactly so anyway.
4. 1989 picture of investigator spraying the footprints. It looks like a white line is around him....wondering if this is the only area where footprints appeared? If so, does this mean perp + Jacob walked in the grass and then up onto the road and into a car? There also appears on the right side of the pic that tire tracks have a curve to them.