MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #7

[Shay]

Thank you for sharing that, that is quite amazing. Being you are so central to this case, is there a possibility in your mind that jacob is possibly buried on that farm? Did kevin actually drive over the abductors tire tracks and contaminate the scene? A vehicle can not be ruled out now because of kevin.

DR places a dark-colored car at the scene right about the time of the abduction. Either there was one, or DR is lying.

 

[cGorg]

this may answer some of the questions about Kevin's timeline. from Thread #6, post #858 by shergal

Quote:
Originally Posted by shergal View Post
Updating cGorg's timeline he created in thread 5 with this new info about Charlie Grafft:
(I have bolded the times I added, non-bolded portions are the work of cGorg - and BBM in my post above means "bolded by me")

cGorg's Timeline so far:
9:00-9:15- Smokey barks, DR sees a dark blue(or black) car drive thru the farmstead
9:15- Abduction occurs
9:32- Merle's 911 call to police
9:40- Police arrive at Wetterling house. I'm thinking here that it does take some time for LE to download the information from the boys before proceeding to abduction site)
9:45 - Charlie Grafft arrives at Wetterlings after hearing police sirens go by his home at 9:35-9:40.
9:45-10-Kevin + girlfriend (and friends hear scanner + see police cars go by). Since they live relatively close (not verified yet) they make it to the abduction site prior to LE, drive ALL the way through DR's farmstead driveway. Smokey does not bark (explanation anywhere for this?) Kevin drives to Tom Thumb, sees 'medical cop', then notices LE squad car at Cotton Dentist office, talks to him, cop says 'we know about the bikes'
10:00- DR goes to bed
10:05-10:20(I don't have any info on this) Since Merle's 911 call was at 9:32 and lasted several minutes, he then called Jerry + Patty in Clearwater. So I would assume the earliest they could be getting into their car would be 9:40. 25-30 minute drive puts arrival at 10:10. However, according to the Saint Autumn blog quoting Patty as saying they met a squad car on their road and the police escorted them to their house. I am wondering if LE waited at the Wetterling house before proceeding to the abduction site.
10:30 - Charlie Grafft (Sheriff) was in the State Patrol helicopter beginning an air search. At one point they hovered so low they almost hit a power line.
10:30-3:00 am - Helicopter searches
11:23- Smokey barks, DR places 911 call regarding people searching the woodpile
So my point is: seems a plausible scenario. Kevin arrived at the abduction site first as LE was at the Wetterlings. Kevin sees the 'medical cop'(whom I cannot explain) and also sees the 'new cop' parked at dentist's office. Is this the cop that met the Wetterlings on the road before proceeding to their house? If so, Kevin, the police, and the Wetterlings did not cross paths going to and fro. My questions:

1. Why did Smokey not bark when Kevin's car drove all the way through the driveway?
2. Why was there not a police officer at the abduction site when Kevin arrived there? Were they short of officers? Or did Kevin get there too quickly?
3. When did the helicopters arrive?
4. DR's comment about being 100% sure that the tan car that went through his driveway in the afternoon being the perp: what is the logic here? is there any connection of this tan car to the abduction scenario?
5. is it possible that a statement or statements within what's been stated is not true?
More Questions:
6. Why did Smokey not bark at helicopters so close overhead they almost touched power lines? That can't be a common occurrence out in the country. (Or maybe he did bark and that was what woke DR so he looked out the window and saw searchers by the woodpile.)

Just received info from ELOCsoul that the article on Charlie Grafft retiring also stated that the helicopter search went until 3:00 am, so I have changed that now in quoted post above. (I could no longer edit my previous post.)

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Last edited by shergal; 01-05-2014 at 01:36 AM. Reason: spelling

 

[Sasquatch321]

You cant tell me we dont know why, he was obviously busy covering up the abduction of hacob.

 

[Shay]

The helicopters at 10:30 didn't wake DR up? Has he ever mentioned hearing them? If I would hear that, I probably would have assumed they were going to crash into my house...those puppies are loud!

 

[VinylTravis]

Just a factoid, there are some sleep disorders in which a person can be so deeply asleep that they cannot be aroused by things that would arouse most of the population. Interestingly, bedwetting is typically common within this population as they cannot even wake when their body's are telling them that they need to urinate. Don't know if this has ever been discussed? Interestingly again, bedwetting is often an issue at some point for people with autism spectrum disorders as I've seen mentioned here.

 

[Sasquatch321]

Im pretty sure daniel never was asleep until the copters had gone away. Obviously the exhaustion of all he had did during this time, is the only reason he even could have fell asleep that night. Or maybe he never slept at all, its only according to Dan.

 

[human]

Bedwetting can be a sign of sexual abuse as well.

Hello again Shay!

Great to see you back!!!

 

[human]

He says he was asleep

http://www.twincities.com/ci_15424697

I thought he helped to search?

 

[Jbrown324320]

I keep coming back in my mind to Kevin's story too, a little hung up on it. I wish the girlfriend would corroborate each detail of his so we didn't have to keep him in the mix of suspects. I had always thought that the police had went to the Wetterlings to talk to Merle and the boys first which is why Kevin got there, but you would think that someone would tell a police officer (if Kevin indeed saw 3) to secure the scene where the bikes were immediately after they heard the story (from the dispatch or from the boys?). The bikes were across the street. He led Jacob across the street and up the driveway. I am leaning towards a hidden car in DR's driveway. He probably knew whose car it was but won't tell or he will get into trouble (again my opinion).

 

[VinylTravis]

Bedwetting can be a sign of sexual abuse as well.

Certainly, but we do not know that anyone is a bedwetter or ever has been, In my case I was just citing an example of how deep a sleep someone can be in *if* they do have a sleep disorder.

One could really write an infinite number of speculative crime novels based on this case and each and every person known or unknown talked about here on WS.

 

[human]

Yes, I think there's a very good chance of Jacob being buried there. I'm curious about the large wooded area to the left of the driveway as you enter the property.

I don't know why I'm so hung up on Kevin's version of events. DR did not see him drive into the yard, yet he saw two other cars that day come all the way up his driveway. The dog barked at the other two, but not Kevin's.

How could those two mysterious cars be possible?

When Kevin said he went up the driveway, LE changed their idea of a car being involved.

That indicates to me that all tire prints were accounted for. There could not be a hidden car. There could not be the two cars DR said he saw.

It would be impossible to drive over the same tire tracks, especially at night. So I deduce there are no cars that LE does not know about.

Hence, the story of the cars driving into the driveway cannot be true

 

[Sasquatch321]

He says he was asleep

http://www.twincities.com/ci_15424697

I thought he helped to search?

I think until Kevin came forward that probably was his story for 14 years. That he was asleep. Guess what Dan, the cars you saw in your sleep dont exist anymore. Goodnight.

 

[cGorg]

I agree, Shay, and some of Kevin's story seems to have changed over the years. In earlier versions, Kevin said he pulled into DR's driveway to turn around and made it sound like he had just pulled in enough to back out, told a cop "at the scene" that he saw bikes there, and then he turned and went back to Tom Thumb. We never heard his gf was with him either originally. Some of those discrepancies could have been bad reporting when interviewing him, but it's odd he never corrected it until 25 years later.

I never quite understood why he thought he would become a suspect either, he had his gf with him to verify his story.

shergal, do you have any documentation showing the differences in Kevin's stories? I assume you mean between 2003 -present. Although LE cleared Kevin, I find his story suspicious.

 

[cGorg]

<snip>Ok so the sheriff was on the scene within 6 minutes of the 911 call. There's no way Kevin heard the scanner, saw the cops go by, got in his gf's car, went towards the DelWin, took a back road over to 16th avenue, went all the way down DR's driveway to turn around, sat at the end of his driveway to contemplate what to do with the bikes, then head north to the Tom Thumb without seeing the sheriff.<snip>

(snipped by me) Good point on the sheriff! I hadn't worked this fact into the timeline.

9:32 pm: 911 call
9:38 pm: sheriff arrives at the abduction scene
9:40 pm: LE arrives at the Wetterling residence
approx 10 pm: Kevin + gf arrive at scene (DR goes to sleep but does not hear barking Smokey)

So what happened to the sheriff? Did he survey the abduction scene then drive over to Wetterlings leaving the crime scene unsecured? If he did not, then Kevin would surely have seen him and if so why would the sheriff allow Kevin to drive all the way through the farm driveway? Did he leave an officer at the scene but then is this the officer Kevin talked to? If so, then the officer did not document the encounter and worse let Kevin drive over the crime scene and even worse yet what if Kevin was the perp? Not saying he was but there's definitely a gap of info regarding the sheriff's location as it relates to Kevin's story.

 

[cGorg]

I think until Kevin came forward that probably was his story for 14 years. That he was asleep. Guess what Dan, the cars you saw in your sleep dont exist anymore. Goodnight.

As I've understood it, DR says he was asleep from 10 pm to 11:23 pm when he was awoken by Smokey barking at the officers near the woodpile. After the 911 phone call he then went outside, walked up the driveway where he spoke with Officer Bechtel. This conversation was acknowledged by LE. DR states that he then checked the outbuildings.

My point is not to mix up DR's statements about when he was sleeping and when he was searching....they're 2 separate time frames. Also, LE lost that 911 call or erased it or they kept it but said they lost it but isn't that lying to the public? IMO they really did lose it and admitted it. As for the cars, I do not find LE's dropping the car theory based upon Kevin's story to be 100% foolproof. Same as losing the 911 call, I consider the possibility that the crime scene was less than perfectly preserved that night and thus tire track evidence inconclusive. Having said that, IMO, a car being involved doesn't exonerate DR. Simply saying that it's either DR as perp on foot or some other perp in a car is too narrow in perpective. My mind is open to a combination of possibilities while at the same time acknowledging DR as the only named POI.

 

[human]

As I've understood it, DR says he was asleep from 10 pm to 11:23 pm when he was awoken by Smokey barking at the officers near the woodpile. After the 911 phone call he then went outside, walked up the driveway where he spoke with Officer Bechtel. This conversation was acknowledged by LE. DR states that he then checked the outbuildings.

My point is not to mix up DR's statements about when he was sleeping and when he was searching....they're 2 separate time frames. Also, LE lost that 911 call or erased it or they kept it but said they lost it but isn't that lying to the public? IMO they really did lose it and admitted it. As for the cars, I do not find LE's dropping the car theory based upon Kevin's story to be 100% foolproof. Same as losing the 911 call, I consider the possibility that the crime scene was less than perfectly preserved that night and thus tire track evidence inconclusive. Having said that, IMO, a car being involved doesn't exonerate DR. Simply saying that it's either DR as perp on foot or some other perp in a car is too narrow in perpective. My mind is open to a combination of possibilities while at the same time acknowledging DR as the only named POI.

So he was sleeping through the helicopters whirring above. And nobody woke him to ask about searching his property until he saw flashlights by a wood pile.

Seriously, this makes sense? Not to me

I think LE has these things documented and they do not add up.

 

[cGorg]

IDK if DR could sleep through the helicopter sound or not during that 1 1/2 hours. Maybe he had headphones on or was drinking...who knows. Nor do I know if LE knocked on his door during that time. Given lack of evidence to prove it one way or the other I conclude there's a possibility he slept through the helicopter sound just as you conclude he did not.
You THINK LE has things documented and they do not add up...it could be...but we don't know for sure. I'm not trying to be difficult, but if the conclusion on this forum is that DR did it then why consider other leads or possibilities? That's all I'm saying. If DR is indeed the perp then posters need something more tangible than just saying what they think or believe(myself included). If DR is not the perp but an accessory or has knowledge he's withholding then maybe the other possibilities are important as clues.

 

[human]

Whether or not DR is the perp, his statements do not add up, nor do Kevin's.

If we had access to LE files, they might make perfect sense.

LE has named DR as POI. That is all we know for sure. We do not know that it means he is the perp.

Apparently LE has enough info to do that as well as get search warrants for the home and to get search warrants to dig up,the property.

As they are sealed, we do not know why.

We do know that DR had a convicted child molester as a friend on FB . The minute that was revealed, the guy scrubbed his info from FB.

And no, it is not because FB removed him.

I reported a different sex offender. A priest . That process took months of back and forth between me and FB. So someone is reading on here and alerted the offender.

We also know of other possibilities that cannot be on here because the people have done no crime that we know of.

Any other facts that people know?

 

[shergal]

<snip>Ok so the sheriff was on the scene within 6 minutes of the 911 call. There's no way Kevin heard the scanner, saw the cops go by, got in his gf's car, went towards the DelWin, took a back road over to 16th avenue, went all the way down DR's driveway to turn around, sat at the end of his driveway to contemplate what to do with the bikes, then head north to the Tom Thumb without seeing the sheriff.<snip>

(snipped by me) Good point on the sheriff! I hadn't worked this fact into the timeline.

9:32 pm: 911 call
9:38 pm: sheriff arrives at the abduction scene
9:40 pm: LE arrives at the Wetterling residence
approx 10 pm: Kevin + gf arrive at scene (DR goes to sleep but does not hear barking Smokey)

So what happened to the sheriff? Did he survey the abduction scene then drive over to Wetterlings leaving the crime scene unsecured? If he did not, then Kevin would surely have seen him and if so why would the sheriff allow Kevin to drive all the way through the farm driveway? Did he leave an officer at the scene but then is this the officer Kevin talked to? If so, then the officer did not document the encounter and worse let Kevin drive over the crime scene and even worse yet what if Kevin was the perp? Not saying he was but there's definitely a gap of info regarding the sheriff's location as it relates to Kevin's story.

I don't think the sheriff himself was on the scene within 6 minutes. I think that may be bad reporting by media. Because if we are talking about Sheriff Charlie Grafft, he first heard the sirens go by his house around 9:45-9:50 as he was sitting down to watch the 10 pm news. That's documented by him. (It's on here somewhere, but I can find the link again if I need to.) Then he got the call and went immediately. I think LE was on the scene within 6 minutes, just not the sheriff himself.

It still doesn't make sense if there were really 3 cop cars, that one of them wouldn't have stayed at the scene to preserve evidence and to watch for possible suspects leaving.

 

[Sasquatch321]

I think the case sits today at a point where we have Dan as the number one. It took 14 years to narrow that down through an investigation of the likes you've never seen before. We did scour the state and country, x'ing out all those viable people. In 2003 kevins exclamation broke all of that. We now have the guy. Its not easy at this point though, he had now had 14 years to cover up this up. Who knows what he could have done with jacobs remains during all this time. They are somewhere only he knows. But its without them (remains) that we may never see this case recieve justice. Circumstantial alone doesnt cut it anymore.