MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #7

[ELOCsoul]

I lived near the St. Joseph area at the time of the abduction. The story never went out of my head. I also remember this other story in Jordan and never put the two together. Back then, nobody really believed that this sort of thing happened. We were asleep in a sense.

You hit the nail on the head with this comment. "It Can't Happen Here" is the thought that always comes to mind when reading a lot of the articles from that time. Small town Midwest America - it was viewed as the last bastion of safety.

 

[shergal]

I looked up the "1981 Smith-Jones homicide" mentioned in #40 above, to see if it was a crime somehow related or similar to Jacob's case - since clients with "memories" of that case were being counseled at the same time as clients with "memories" of Jacob's case.

It doesn't seem to be related at all, although the prime suspect in the 1981 Smith-Jones double homicide was convicted of first degree sexual assault and kidnapping in 1982.

Diana Smith and Scott Jones were found murdered in Scott’s St. Paul, MN apartment in March 1981. They were murdered with chloroform. The prime suspect was Diana's former boyfriend, a dental student at the U of M, Tony (Milton) Gardner. Tony Gardner went to prison for first degree sexual assault and kidnapping from a May 1982 violent crime. But they never found enough proof to convict him of the 1981 Smith-Jones murder.
Link to that case:
http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2006/02/27/cold-case-chloroform-murders/
(I found the suspect's name on a site that can't be linked here.)

 

[shergal]

The way I read this, Jared is saying that DR has not been ruled out as a suspect in his own case. I don't think he is referring to Jacob's case here.

Interesting. I'll go read it again.

 

[cGorg]

The way I read this, Jared is saying that DR has not been ruled out as a suspect in his own case. I don't think he is referring to Jacob's case here.

I disagree. Jared has dismissed DR as his perpetrator. Quoting Jared: " Traci-Although I'm limited on what I can say about suspects in these cases, I can say that through the years, there have been a thousand people looked at, and at least a dozen that have not been cleared as suspects. Dan is one, even though I dismissed him as my perpetrator."
Essentially he is saying that in THESE cases(plural) DR is still a suspect-specifically Jacob's case but not his(Jared's) case.
IMHO, this removes DR from the Cold Spring case(Jared). It does not remove DR from Jacob's however.

 

[cGorg]

In that first link, #40 and #41 seem very strange to me.


41. On the same date, Licensee also reported to the police that
another file, that of client #8, had been discovered missing during
the summer. She told the police that client #8 was an alleged cult
survivor who lived near the Wetterling family when Jacob Wetterling
was abducted, and the client, along with other family members, was
suspicious that the mother was involved in the kidnapping.

But in other parts of this document, Licensee (Fredrickson) seems to be imagining things such as some unknown person "fixing" her house, repairing doors and screens, etc., which makes me wonder how accurate any of her theories would have been.

So what relevance does this have to Jacob's abduction? Do you think Client #8 lived near Jacob? Is that even verifiable?

 

[cGorg]

Regarding my Post # 164....if you want to split hairs then DR is still a suspect in Jared's case according to LE, even though Jared has dismissed him. I go with Jared on this one.

 

[shergal]

I disagree. Jared has dismissed DR as his perpetrator. Quoting Jared: " Traci-Although I'm limited on what I can say about suspects in these cases, I can say that through the years, there have been a thousand people looked at, and at least a dozen that have not been cleared as suspects. Dan is one, even though I dismissed him as my perpetrator."
Essentially he is saying that in THESE cases(plural) DR is still a suspect-specifically Jacob's case but not his(Jared's) case.
IMHO, this removes DR from the Cold Spring case(Jared). It does not remove DR from Jacob's however.

I took it as by "these cases" Jared was referring to the 1987 attempts and/or abductions in Paynesville, plus his own case. I thought he meant Jacob's case also, but I guess that's open to interpretation.

I agree though, cGorg, it sounds to me like Jared has decided DR was not involved in his own case. But DR has not been cleared from anything else in his mind.

 

[shergal]

So what relevance does this have to Jacob's abduction? Do you think Client #8 lived near Jacob? Is that even verifiable?

If these clients were children (and it seems they were as they talk about their father, etc.) and they were trying to recall memories, and this counselor was implanting false memories in them, I'm not sure any of it can be believed.

Just because it says "the client believed so and so was involved" doesn't mean they were. The child could have just thought they were, or wanted to point a finger at someone. And since we don't know any of the names, it would be pretty hard to figure out who they are talking about anyway.

It's scary to me that psych counselors would be implanting false memories in children that have already possibly been traumatized by an event.

 

[cGorg]

shergal...yes, Jared's statements can be misinterpreted. Only he can clarify but it would be nice to be able to eliminate at least one avenue of research if his perp is not DR.
I agree with you on the psychiatrist + psychologist links...unsettling that both professional + patient have issues-which makes the info relative to Jacob's case unreliable.

 

[ELOCsoul]

I took it as by "these cases" Jared was referring to the 1987 attempts and/or abductions in Paynesville, plus his own case. I thought he meant Jacob's case also, but I guess that's open to interpretation.

I agree though, cGorg, it sounds to me like Jared has decided DR was not involved in his own case. But DR has not been cleared from anything else in his mind.

I agree, I think he was referring to his own case, and the 1987 cases. I doubt Jared would be privy to LE information with regards to DR as it relates to Jacobs investigation.

Regarding DR and Jared, I'm 99.9% sure DR had no involvement. That's MO only of course, but based on the collective info available. Also, remember after Kevin came forward, LE did a one-eighty on their previous position that Jareds and Jacobs abductions were related.

 

[shergal]

I agree, I think he was referring to his own case, and the 1987 cases. I doubt Jared would be privy to LE information with regards to DR as it relates to Jacobs investigation.

Regarding DR and Jared, I'm 99.9% sure DR had no involvement. That's MO only of course, but based on the collective info available. Also, remember after Kevin came forward, LE did a one-eighty on their previous position that Jareds and Jacobs abductions were related.

They did? I did not know that. I knew they started looking for a local on foot, but I didn't realize they abandoned their theory of the 2 cases being related.

I found an older link from back in 2007 when Jacob's siblings helped write that book titled "What About Me?" It was designed to help other kids who had siblings abducted.
Here's the article:
http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2007/05/22/cold-case-jacob-wetterlings-siblings-talk/

And here is the complete "What About Me" book (it's a pdf). You can read the entire book online, something else I had never seen before.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/217714.pdf
It has thoughts from the siblings of Jacob (Trevor, Amy, and Carmen), Jimmy Ryce (Martha), Molly Bish (Heather), and Tamara Brooks (Marcus, Robin and Erika).

 

[Marzipan]

The cases could be connected without DR being Jared's perp (and DR being involved in Jacob's case) if DR had someone over that night and that someone was both Jared's and Jacob's abductor. Fits with many posts I've seen from some of you thinking DR may be involved but not the one who took Jacob.

That's my #1 theory right now, and I really hadn't thought of it before I got back on WS.

1.) After reviewing the multiple DR videos, I do find a few concerning things (even though I don't believe in picking every little thing apart). He did well in the Julie Nelson videos, but I was concerned with one little thing, involving his meeting with Patty and him acknowledging to her "yes, 21 years is too long to not talk." It didn't hit me until I woke up thinking about that statement. Does it hit anyone else? If he wasn't involved, why is 21 years too long to not talk? 21 years since he was an innocent bystander, asleep in his house...or 21 years since he was involved in abducting her child?

2.) In the video on KSTP (when he's wearing the green t-shirt -- I know you've all seen it... You can find it again if it isn't in media links by searching directing from KSTP site --and it won't show on on iPad)...he acts like he isn't quite sure where the cedar chest came from and exactly what LE took (I believe he would know these things and not play around with "or something" "some other stuff" type of language if he wasn't putting us on). The guy documents everything-- he knows and isn't being straight forward. He's just talking about what he wants to talk about to defend himself. I believe he was involved, and I suspect a cadaver dog in 2010 was able to hit on that chest.

3.) In that same interview (kstp, green shirt) he says he's never owned a handgun. I believe him. I don't think he is authoritarian or bold enough to have approached three boys at one time--very, very risky behavior for someone with no record.

4.) His parents were away. They are very religious. He may not be openly gay, but he may be secretly gay. He would never be able to tell the truth to report someone else if he'd been in such a situation as having them over alone. He seems a little vulnerable in a sense, and may have been brought into this situation by someone else's sick game. And now it's been so long that he has his story very, very straight and is sticking to it.

 

[human]

I understand. It just doesn't give me enough confidence to say that there were no other vehicles at the scene of the abduction.

I do not understand. Tire tracks are easy to see. There is no way on earth that someone could drive perfectly over other tracks especially at night.

For some reason LE is lying about how many tire tracks?

As far as Kevin, I doubt if LE just took his word for it. I am sure that they interviewed the parents, the GF, whomever. It is a night no one at the time will ever forget.

it does not matter what kind of tires he had, as far as I am concerned. One unidentified. Kevin comes forward.

Why would he insinuate himself in this case?

I simply do not understand why the family never said a word as well as the GF. strange to me

 

[human]

You hit the nail on the head with this comment. "It Can't Happen Here" is the thought that always comes to mind when reading a lot of the articles from that time. Small town Midwest America - it was viewed as the last bastion of safety.

yes, it changed lives tremendously.

I think we started having child sexual abuse info in the schools after that as well.

and of course, all of the laws that Patty Worked on. The reporting of where sex offenders live.

and most of all , the change of life for the beautiful Wetterling family who has shown strength and grace and such forgiveness and tolerance.

 

[KeepHopeAlive]

I do not understand. Tire tracks are easy to see. There is no way on earth that someone could drive perfectly over other tracks especially at night.

For some reason LE is lying about how many tire tracks?

As far as Kevin, I doubt if LE just took his word for it. I am sure that they interviewed the parents, the GF, whomever. It is a night no one at the time will ever forget.

it does not matter what kind of tires he had, as far as I am concerned. One unidentified. Kevin comes forward.

Why would he insinuate himself in this case?

I simply do not understand why the family never said a word as well as the GF. strange to me

I'm not disagreeing or saying that anyone is/was lying. Whether Kevin's vehicle was the vehicle that created the tracks in the driveway that night or not doesn't change my opinion that a vehicle cannot be ruled out. To me, the most telling evidence is Jacob's footprints in the driveway where they show resistance and then nothing. The dogs also lost the scent. It is just my opinion that something happened at that spot in the driveway.

 

[ELOCsoul]

I'm not disagreeing or saying that anyone is/was lying. Whether Kevin's vehicle was the vehicle that created the tracks in the driveway that night or not doesn't change my opinion that a vehicle cannot be ruled out. To me, the most telling evidence is Jacob's footprints in the driveway where they show resistance and then nothing. The dogs also lost the scent. It is just my opinion that something happened at that spot in the driveway.

Yes, this is quite possible. The ending of the prints is hard to get past, objectively speaking. The perp picked Jacob up at that point. Whether he put him in a vehicle or cart, or carried him at that point is unknown.

There had to be other footprints there that LE has never disclosed. You would think there would be some sloppy footwork back and forth by the perp if putting Jacob in a vehicle. If on foot, the perp could have been walking on the grass, and dragged Jacob towards him, thereby looking like a struggle. Hard to speculate not knowing exactly where on the driveway his prints were.

 

[cGorg]

Tire tracks....this was discussed at length with excellent professional posts by Trackergd(Thread #6, post #1082 for reference). The picture showing Jacob's prints as well as other larger foot prints with a tire track immediately adjacent to these prints was analyzed and it was stated that this particular track belonged to a lighter vehicle, not a heavier Grand Prix like Kevin's girlfriend had. Additionally, this track looks as fresh as the footprints. Another track was shown on Esme Murphy's interview with DR. It was an up close screenshot. Now I'm not sure if this is the same track that Trackergd analyzed or not but it was presented as being from Kevin's car. Because of the lack of clarity and availability of any further pictures or info, I am still skeptical. I admit the 'perp on foot' theory fits the scenario but then what after the prints disappear?

 

[cGorg]

So it appears there's 2 different tire patterns: the one shown alongside the footprints(zebra pattern) discussed by Trackergd and the one shown in Esme Murphy's interview of DR (honeycomb pattern). Not being a tire guy, not sure what it means but the latter pattern would have to be Kevin's tracks.

 

[cGorg]

I'm still wondering about the smaller tire tracks indicating a lighter vehicle and the fact that they appear to have driven over or near the footprints....

 

[shergal]

Here's the Esme Murphy video you're referring to, cGorg. If it's taken it to full screen people may notice some things they've missed before. It also features a younger pic of DR without his glasses, and interviews with Aaron and Trevor right after the abduction.

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2013/...est-goes-through-day-of-wetterling-abduction/