MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #8

[Tammy N]

"....most likely took the victim to a basement or hidden dwelling (but probably his own dwelling) within 100 meters of the last known impression of JEW, likely sexually assaulted him for approximately one hour, and likely murdered him with a blunt instrument.."

Not just this portion, but most particularly this portion, made me think, again, of DR's statement of: "They didn't come into the house that night. If they had it would have all been over then"

 

[Sigrun]

Great deductive reasoning Sigrun! I felt like I was reading a LE textbook. Wow.

I don't believe anything LE says about suspects or rule outs for Jacob's case since it has been 25 years and they haven't solved this case. Also Stearns County (the one in charge of the investigation) has covered up crimes listing murders as accidents and not solving other murder cases. Usually police give reasons why people close to or at the crime scene were ruled out.

What about the FBI study that indicates that people who abduct children do not frequently have daily contact with children? You believe otherwise.

Hey Jbrown, thanks. I think the FBI study was referring to statistics and I would agree. What stands out here is that this is an outlier case. Usually the intelligence is not this high. Also, the reason for saying they don't work with kids, I think, has to do with social incompetence. I don't have enough info yet, but I think this perp is not socially incompetent (not exactly). This is very unusual in kidnappings because usually it is their incompetence that drives them to kidnap. Remember Ted Bundy? He did in fact kidnap (and murder) a 14 year-old girl. But he sounded like a brilliant politician in the court room. Very gregarious and charming. There are odd ones ... then there are odd ones. But very good point, thanks.

~ svh

 

[Tammy N]

Thank you Jbrown. I have seen the court records for them yes I didn't know particulars were accessible, but rather a listing of the case history and hearings. I'll look further.

 

[Jbrown324320]

you are welcome Tammy. After listening to the tapes, reading the transcript, researching the Bahners for the past few years, they have moved down on my suspect list. I believed the tapes for the first few years, but I don't take too much stock in them now. Read Joy's transcript of the tapes. To me they don't sound like he is telling the truth for some reason.

http://www.joybaker.com/wp-content/2013/07/StearnTruth_MichaelBahnerInterview.pdf

 

[Jbrown324320]

I'm from MN, and I would have to say rural MN is more conservative and the urban areas are more liberal. I live in an urban area. There are child molesters from all walks of life.

I was looking over Joy's blog and re-read some stuff. She came across an article from the Pioneer Press published in Nov 1989 which indicated the FBI was looking for 3 "suspicious vehicles" that were seen in the area of Jacob's abduction before or the day of the kidnapping. One in particluar was parked on 90th St and left when a neighbor approached:

(clipped by me from http://www.joybaker.com/category/jacob/ "The Suspcious Cars" blogpost)

"The first car is older. It is maroon – the color of a Minnesota State Trooper’s uniform – and has rectangular or square tail lights, and appears similar to a 1976 Pontiac Catalina. Like the other cars, its rear end was jacked up.

FBI agents said the car was seen on 90th Avenue near the Wetterling home about six weeks before Jacob’s abduction and again a week before he was kidnapped at gunpoint. On two occasions, the car was seen parked at night on 90th Avenue, but it left when a resident approached. The driver was seen once during daylight and a composite drawing was made based on that sighting."

Clipped from link above stearnstruth tapes:
INT: I was thinking last night... what you were telling me about, uh, when we were
sitting in the cafe (dog barks)... about um... I think I told you about Lou and the
burgundy car.

MB: Mmm hmm.

INT: You got rid of that?

MB: Mmm hmm.

INT: And then you told me that you guys were there. You admitted to that. You
said you guys were in your car. And he was in his, or what? Tell me again. I don't
remember it all. But, tell ________ wh
____________________________________________________________________________________________

Although the mention of a maroon car driven by "Lou" in the stearntruth tapes matches a suspicious car seen around town my a resident of St Joseph's around the time of the kidnapping (see above). We have determined that "Lou" was another local child molester going by the nickname of "The Queen of St Cloud" from a retired detective I have encountered. No shortage of sexual predator suspects in the small town areas of rural MN.

 

[Caoutchouc]

Hey Jbrown, thanks. I think the FBI study was referring to statistics and I would agree. What stands out here is that this is an outlier case. Usually the intelligence is not this high. Also, the reason for saying they don't work with kids, I think, has to do with social incompetence. I don't have enough info yet, but I think this perp is not socially incompetent (not exactly). This is very unusual in kidnappings because usually it is their incompetence that drives them to kidnap. Remember Ted Bundy? He did in fact kidnap (and murder) a 14 year-old girl. But he sounded like a brilliant politician in the court room. Very gregarious and charming. There are odd ones ... then there are odd ones. But very good point, thanks.

~ svh

So exciting to be thinking with all of you! (albeit under tragic circumstances.)

Sigrun, analysis and data are excellent. For the most part I don't disagree, but respectfully want to point out that oftentimes "high intelligence" may be mistaken for "gross incompetence".

I am NOT accusing anyone in uniform of wrongdoing (esp on Memorial Day!) however, things worked quite differently in 1989. That can't be discounted. What we take for "evidence" today was in a totally different context/setting not-so-long-ago. As Mrs. Wetterling poignantly stated, many posts of LE didn't even have a fax machine. How could they conduct a thorough investigation?

Heck- look at 1994 and the OJ investigation- they had MANY resources and it was a totally botched investigation!

Sometimes it's the case of a smart crook, others, it's the case of a botched investigation.
Rarely- a hybrid of the two.

But in my experience, one way or another they usually gives themselves up. They just can't help themselves. Case in point: where's OJ today? And the Hubers? And the Bahners? Was it for the crime they first committed that they're locked up? Probably not.

 

[Sigrun]

So exciting to be thinking with all of you! (albeit under tragic circumstances.)

Sigrun, analysis and data are excellent. For the most part I don't disagree, but respectfully want to point out that oftentimes "high intelligence" may be mistaken for "gross incompetence".

This is an excellent point. We're sitting here with the internet and millions of online files when they couldn't even fax anything at the time. And given how rare these disorders are, and given how yet rarer "white hats" who understand them are, it only figures this wouldn't get solved anytime soon. And then there's all the collaboration involved with other departments on other cases. And "Kevin" didn't come forward for many years. At the time, it could have made sense from their perspective to search for the "unknown" car and assume that Joe Upstanding was clean.

btw, one of the insidious details is that the footprints DO look to be associated with the tire tracks, so that probably bolstered their conclusion, just as it did mine. It does not look like a set of coincidental impressions.

~ svh

 

[KeepHopeAlive]

I'm so glad to see Jacob's case, Jared's case, and the Paynesville cases getting so much attention, reaching so many people, and having so many people respond.

http://www.joybaker.com/2014/05/24/holy-media-blitz/

 

[Caoutchouc]

This is an excellent point. We're sitting here with the internet and millions of online files when they couldn't even fax anything at the time. And given how rare these disorders are, and given how yet rarer "white hats" who understand them are, it only figures this wouldn't get solved anytime soon. And then there's all the collaboration involved with other departments on other cases. And "Kevin" didn't come forward for many years. At the time, it could have made sense from their perspective to search for the "unknown" car and assume that Joe Upstanding was clean.

btw, one of the insidious details is that the footprints DO look to be associated with the tire tracks, so that probably bolstered their conclusion, just as it did mine. It does not look like a set of coincidental impressions.

~ svh

Well. That's interesting.

Apparently, Mrs. Wetterling has asked DR if it was just a "prank gone wrong". (See DR CBS/WCCO interview for exact reference) (also of course Joy Baker for putting much of this together on her blog)

Never doubt a mother's intuition.

What if she had the right question, just the wrong guy?!

Again, potentially another far fetched idea, but worth looking at.

 

[Sigrun]

Well. That's interesting.

Apparently, Mrs. Wetterling has asked DR if it was just a "prank gone wrong". (See DR CBS/WCCO interview for exact reference) (also of course Joy Baker for putting much of this together on her blog)

Never doubt a mother's intuition.

What if she had the right question, just the wrong guy?!

Again, potentially another far fetched idea, but worth looking at.

Yes, odd. I just finished a Best Fit on a homicide where I concluded it was the result of a prank gone wrong. And the perps were right around 20 years old! There is indeed something hokey about the age question. But, without more info on K+K there's not much to look into, unfortunately.

In the case where the "runner" did not intend to kill or sexually assault, the disposition of JEW is back on the table, imo.

I'm going to think a bit on DR's possible application of a prank, but I still suspect the disorders for a runner are still there. And in the mind of the runner, the runner was running a prank; a homicidal one. It's just that this word "prank" doesn't fit what I'm talking about. Whatever the case, any prank of this kind, even if not homicidal, would hazard life and still be criminal, imo. In the case of a true prank where a murder or sexual assault is not the object or intent, I could make more sense out of the opposite sex duo narrative. Very good point.

~ svh

 

[Sigrun]

Well. That's interesting.

Apparently, Mrs. Wetterling has asked DR if it was just a "prank gone wrong". (See DR CBS/WCCO interview for exact reference) (also of course Joy Baker for putting much of this together on her blog)

Never doubt a mother's intuition.

What if she had the right question, just the wrong guy?!

Again, potentially another far fetched idea, but worth looking at.

I should have asked, when you say "interesting", are you thinking about the lay of the tire tracks and the footprint? Is Kevin DR's Kevin? I think DR has a relative by that name. Probably not, but are you suggesting someone picked up JEW with DR's help? Just thinking out loud.

~ svh

Ah, I see what you meant now. Yes, she did say that, but I'm not sure if she was playing cards or not. It could be that she was trying to get him to cop to a lesser offense. I'll think about a prank though.

 

[Caoutchouc]

I should have asked, when you say "interesting", are you thinking about the lay of the tire tracks and the footprint? Is Kevin DR's Kevin? I think DR has a relative by that name. Probably not, but are you suggesting someone picked up JEW with DR's help? Just thinking out loud.

~ svh

Ah, I see what you meant now. Yes, she did say that, but I'm not sure if she was playing cards or not. It could be that she was trying to get him to cop to a lesser offense. I'll think about a prank though.

Oh, to be clear, I believe DR is innocent of any wrongdoing. I can't be 100% positive, and I'm always open to possibilities, but I don't think he had anything to do (knowingly/intentionally) with Jacob Wetterling's abduction.

I'd never heard of DR until a few weeks ago when I caught up on some of the particulars of this case. I remember being in Europe in 2010 when I heard the news that his farm was being searched (though he was unnamed at the time)...then nothing.
Initially, in my head, I went at him with guns blazing, but as I sifted through everything over the past 24 years, I realized IMO/experience it's highly unlikely he had any direct/intentional link to the crime.

Knowing what I now believe I understand about the facts (holy noncommittal statement!), that DR sat down with this "Kevin" during Joy's interview without punching him says he's a forgiving man. I can't say I'd do the same, given all that's occurred.

 

[Just.sayin]

I just can't believe nerdy guy DR with the lisp and who most likely has Aspergers Syndrome to some degree, is being pinned as the perp by many here.

http://www.aane.org/about_asperger_syndrome/what_is_asperger_syndrome.html

This could explain his so called odd behavior as well as being the 40 year old virgin living with the parents. Possibly being (unofficially) falsely accused of a terrible crime for 24 years would make anyone act strange and defensive. Think for a moment if it were you. How would it affect your life? Living and working in such a small community. He would have been ousted as the band teacher long ago. People in small towns are not stupid. I think if he would have done it, he would have cracked years ago.

Also I really don't find it a big deal that he kept a scrapbook. Everyone makes it sound so perverted or something but if a nationally recognized crime happened at the end of your driveway wouldn't you keep the news clippings? I would! For many reasons. For history sake, for crime solving sake, for self defense sake.

Just sayin, and truly I don't know the guy and have no reason to defend him, I am just very worried focus is being placed on the wrong weirdo. Cheers to Joy for interviewing him in person, I highly doubt she is closely related to him or has any ulterior motive to clear his name, she seems like a well grounded and intuitive writer and we have yet to read her final conclusions.

Also marathon running and child abducting just doesn't jive in my mind. I mean running is their stress relief and the runners high is their pleasure. A nerdy guy running and then going to bed early because he teaches the next day seems to check out in my mind. I guess because I have a lot of friends who do the same thing.

I am beginning to doubt it was the Hubers too, but if anyone's gravel pit should be excavated it should be theirs.

 

[human]

Um, why punch Kevin? I don't get that at all. The Wetterlings should be upset, but why should DR be upset with Kevin?

sigrun, what do you analyze in terms of DR keeping clippings and having a journal about
Jacob?

What do you make of the fact that he wanted those things back from LE?

 

[Caoutchouc]

I just can't believe nerdy guy DR with the lisp and who most likely has Aspergers Syndrome to some degree, is being pinned as the perp by many here.


Also I really don't find it a big deal that he kept a scrapbook. Everyone makes it sound so perverted or something but if a nationally recognized crime happened at the end of your driveway wouldn't you keep the news clippings? I would! For many reasons. For history sake, for crime solving sake, for self defense sake.

Truly. If a crime that grabbed international headlines happened near/in my driveway in 1989, you better believe I'd keep a scrapbook.

It never fails to amaze me how much the media gets wrong. What is reported, what's not reported, what's speculated...and again, going back to 1989...I don't think I knew when the internet was. The media still can't get it right today...how could they back then?!

Also, if keeping archives/news clippings/timelines was suspect, we'd all clearly be people of HIGH interest

 

[Caoutchouc]

Um, why punch Kevin? I don't get that at all. The Wetterlings should be upset, but why should DR be upset with Kevin?

sigrun, what do you analyze in terms of DR keeping clippings and having a journal about
Jacob?

What do you make of the fact that he wanted those things back from LE?

I don't condone violence, but if I was DR I'd be incredibly upset that Kevin drove over potentially critical evidence because...he was bored and over zealous listening to a police scanner? And that he didn't come forward for over 14 years with the statement that'd he'd tampered with evidence (willingly or not)

How many resources were wasted on such stupidity?

Clearly the Wetterlings should be the most upset. But again, they are lovely people with amazing hearts (I've never met them, but going on what I know and a few who've met them)

 

[human]

Hm. I wonder how many of us have news clippings, etc.

The only thing I have is my Jacob's Hope pin.

So sigrun, what do you think of DR keeping clippings, etc and then wanting them back?

 

[human]

I don't condone violence, but if I was DR I'd be incredibly upset that Kevin drove over potentially critical evidence because...he was bored and over zealous listening to a police scanner? And that he didn't come forward for over 14 years with the statement that'd he'd tampered with evidence (willingly or not)

How many resources were wasted on such stupidity?

Clearly the Wetterlings should be the most upset. But again, they are lovely people with amazing hearts (I've never met them, but going on what I know and a few who've met them)

DR was out of the picture until Kevin came forward and said he was the car driver. So Kevin keeping quiet gave DR years of peace. Nobody thought of DR as the perp until LE announced him as a POI.

 

[human]

Truly. If a crime that grabbed international headlines happened near/in my driveway in 1989, you better believe I'd keep a scrapbook.

It never fails to amaze me how much the media gets wrong. What is reported, what's not reported, what's speculated...and again, going back to 1989...I don't think I knew when the internet was. The media still can't get it right today...how could they back then?!

Also, if keeping archives/news clippings/timelines was suspect, we'd all clearly be people of HIGH interest

What did the media get wrong? Do you have info on that?

 

[Sigrun]

Um, why punch Kevin? I don't get that at all. The Wetterlings should be upset, but why should DR be upset with Kevin?

sigrun, what do you analyze in terms of DR keeping clippings and having a journal about
Jacob?

What do you make of the fact that he wanted those things back from LE?

Good question human. The only way I can even get away with bringing personality disorders into the discussion is because of the commission of a capital crime (or felony abduction of a minor, which takes some seriously messed up thinking to get to). As I noted, those stats suggest it was present. But behaviors like what you mention don't have, in smooth talk, probative value. I think it is just as likely that DR kept that stuff because its a small town and a big deal there. Probably lots of people have files in that town. The second behavior is more problematic, but you would need to know, imo, his history with LE in that town. My guess is that there is a p&^g contest between him and the authorities there, or at least, it is just as likely that this is the case. We just don't have anything to distinguish which case applies, imo.

On the other hand, yes, these are behaviors consistent with a narcissistic personality. What it doesn't show however, is if that feature set is pathological. It could be Axis I or Axis II. In the first case, that's just a narcissistic personality. Not a problem and not a danger to society. In the second case it can be extremely dangerous, imo.

~ svh

btw, Axis I can wax and wane episodically. In times of stress feature sets typically seen in personality disorders can wax strong during the crisis. Then they can subside as the episode subsides. This is also normal. For example, if DR's parents are getting tossed around the house by LE, you can expect some NPD features to show up. This is normal, but we would not expect to see it rise to Axis II, capital crime behavior.