MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #8

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What was DR doing durmg this conflagration of sound?

Exactly, human. It's a really big IF, but IF DR was the perpetrator, there is a lot about personality disorders that will speak to this. And I'm afraid its not pleasant. So, I really need to clear K+K out of my mind before I go down that road. Under those circumstances, a person harboring an Axis II Narcissistic Personality is highly predictable in a certain constrained set of behaviors. This is their weakness. "Normal" people are notoriously unpredictable in all behaviors, but not these folks. I can explain later where NPD is coming from, or why I suspect it based on the crime scene.

~ svh
 
So, in summary, I'd like to give a name to "Kevin's" gf so we all know who we're talking about, even if just abstractly. In the spirit of "Kevin" I'll call her "Kelly". And I'll call the two of them K+K.

The problem is that I see more evidence in the driveway for K+K, but as soon as we move just a few minutes beyond the abduction I see some things stacking up against DR. I'm itching to mention it but without having cleared K+K I don't want to. There are already some psychological things going on with DR that have never been mentioned that I'd like to bring up. I also think that if DR was the perpetrator, I can reconstruct what most likely happened to the victim (including where some best evidence could be found). But all that is musing until I can eliminate K+K. Because they've remained out of the spotlight, this is hard to do. Anyone have suggestions?

~ svh

We must not restrain from sharing thoughts or evidence of people involved. What do you know about DR? Kevin was thoroughly excluded by LE, it wasnt him.
 
We must not restrain from sharing thoughts or evidence of people involved. What do you know about DR? Kevin was thoroughly excluded by LE, it wasnt him.

Exactly Sasquatch, and that is the conundrum I'm trying to explain. It isn't that I know anything, it is that I know the odds if we assume K+K are not involved. I understand you believe they have been "cleared" but I am hardly convinced of it. And I do not accept appeals to authority. So, I should not make heinous accusations against someone when I don't even know if those odds really point to him or her. The innocent have a right not to have a naked accusation made of such an incredibly heinous nature. I do what is called Best Fit analysis and it is a technique where you reach a most likely conclusion, not a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. Having said that, I've never been wrong either (so far).

~ svh
 
Exactly Sasquatch, and that is the conundrum I'm trying to explain. It isn't that I know anything, it is that I know the odds if we assume K+K are not involved. I understand you believe they have been "cleared" but I am hardly convinced of it. And I do not accept appeals to authority. So, I should not make heinous accusations against someone when I don't even know if those odds really point to him or her. The innocent have a right not to have a naked accusation made of such an incredibly heinous nature. I do what is called Best Fit analysis and it is a technique where you reach a most likely conclusion, not a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. Having said that, I've never been wrong either (so far).

~ svh

Unless you interview Kevin yourself I don't believe we can get anymore concrete than what LE has already determined. Can we just for a minute say Kevin was not involved, in order to hear what you have to say about DR? DR is a POI so any opinions or accusations you want to make against him is ok.
 
Unless you interview Kevin yourself I don't believe we can get anymore concrete than what LE has already determined. Can we just for a minute say Kevin was not involved, in order to hear what you have to say about DR? DR is a POI so any opinions or accusations you want to make against him is ok.

I don't think I need to interview him but okay, give me a sec to frame it up as a hypothetical.

~ svh
 
Exactly, human. It's a really big IF, but IF DR was the perpetrator, there is a lot about personality disorders that will speak to this. And I'm afraid its not pleasant. So, I really need to clear K+K out of my mind before I go down that road. Under those circumstances, a person harboring an Axis II Narcissistic Personality is highly predictable in a certain constrained set of behaviors. This is their weakness. "Normal" people are notoriously unpredictable in all behaviors, but not these folks. I can explain later where NPD is coming from, or why I suspect it based on the crime scene.

~ svh

Can't wait till later! Very interested in what you're thinking.
 
~svh et al: this is my 1st post. I've been following the discussion for a few days, and was YELLING at my computer while waiting for my posting approval! Sigrun, I'm happy you were directed to Joy's blog, because there's a lot of great info there.

Upon my own research, I'd like to (re) propose an alternate set of POIs: the Bahner brothers/family.
With all due respect to the deceased, there's a well documented history of molestation/criminal sexual misconduct throughout much of the family

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/sctimes/obituary.aspx?pid=155917140

I can post records I pulled from MN courts online about criminal sexual misconduct against: Alan Boyd Bahner, Richard D Bahner, and Michael Bahner, to name a few

Given the extensive criminal complaints/convictions against much of the family, I find the above obituary quite odd in that it so explicitly names everyone.

What I don't have is the exact connection of the Bahners to St. Joseph's on the night of Jacob's abduction. However, there are those YouTube audio recordings from the bail bonds woman, allegedly offering details including a sister that may have been living or staying near the Wetterlings

It is my belief that LE dismissed these POIs much too quickly (unless one of you has evidence to the contrary? I'm all ears. Errr- eyes ;)
 
I have seen the court records for Richard Sr, Richard Jr, Michael, and Alan. I find no other of the family members with crim sex records, though that's enough, isn't it? So. We know they have crim sex convictions, but we don't know the circumstances. Were the victims female family members? Male family members? Or non-family male or female members? We don't know as the victim information would be sealed, I am sure, but correct me if I am wrong. Answers to this would help to "fit" one or all of them into the same type of perp mo in Jacob's abduction.
 
Also, I wanted to point out a potentially important factor that I've not seen discussed: leaves.

The date was October 22 in mid/northern MN and the scene was surrounded by various trees at different angles. Depending on how the summer of 1989 played out, there was potentially significant downed/blowing leaves (I know we don't see this in the crime scene photos, but keep in mind this was a poorly preserved and very active crime scene)

Leave coverage could have hindered track marks
 
I have seen the court records for Richard Sr, Richard Jr, Michael, and Alan. I find no other of the family members with crim sex records, though that's enough, isn't it? So. We know they have crim sex convictions, but we don't know the circumstances. Were the victims female family members? Male family members? Or non-family male or female members? We don't know as the victim information would be sealed, I am sure, but correct me if I am wrong. Answers to this would help to "fit" one or all of them into the same type of perp mo in Jacob's abduction.


On YouTube, there's a picture of text summarizing a male/male attack in re: Bahners. I believe it is entitled "Richard Bahner convicted pedophile knew Jacob Wetterling"
 
ECOL posted site photos at post #304. There don't seem to be enough, if any,trees directly at the abduction site, thus no leaves in the direct area. The trees I see are further away from the road/site of the abduction.
 
Just found the YouTube video you mention. Wow. Seems the Bahmers were at a minimum acquaintances or relatives of this CAA's parents? As CAA stated when he would be around them He would stay close to his parents? I don't really buy the statement that Richard Jr. rode bikes with Jacob. I would definately think Patty and Jerry would know of this?
 
I am sure Aaron Larson, being Jacob's best friend, would know it Jacob rode bikes with the Bahners.

What age would the Bahner's be? Teens?

Jacob had a lot to do. He did things with his family and friends, Why would he ever do things with the Bahners? He was not a street kid.
 
Richard Jr was born in 1965. Michael in 1972. Pretty sure both older than anyone Jacob would ride around on bikes with? And you have a good point, human, if he did, Aaron would have known about it, and probably Trevor, too.
 
I am sure Aaron Larson, being Jacob's best friend, would know it Jacob rode bikes with the Bahners.

What age would the Bahner's be? Teens?

Jacob had a lot to do. He did things with his family and friends, Why would he ever do things with the Bahners? He was not a street kid.


I in no way mean to imply these YouTube tapes or exact statements should be taken as fact(s).

But sometimes where there's smoke...what is a fact is that many in the Bahner family have criminal records, some of which involve criminal sex acts. An educated guess (by me) is that there's a history of molestation/incest which looks like might have escalated into more violent acts with each generation.

The only photo I've come across of any Bahner is the one posted in the obituary. To me, notably, he has distinctive ears (much like in the sketches Trevor and Aaron helped to compile)

In my hypothesis that a Bahner was involved, I don't think the link to Jacob was direct.

Apparently there was a Boy Scout outing in the woods that weekend http://www.postbulletin.com/jacob-s-abduction-sinks-in-for-classmates/article_27ffbfb7-3ebb-583d-bf02-053362217253.html?mode=jqm

A crazy hypothetical indirect link scenario: what if DR's parents booked their trip through a travel agent with some link to the Bahners? Potentially through such a link, the Bahners knew (or thought) the farm would be relatively unmanned that weekend (w/Dan's parents in Europe and perhaps not knowing about Dan or thinking he'd be less perceptive in overseeing what looks like a decent sized farm) and were camped out in the area. Jacob rode by, the delinquent camper saw an opportunity, and grabbed it.

Far fetched? Perhaps. But I don't think enough of these kinds of links have been exhausted
 
Why wouldn't LE identify the Bahner's then as POI?

They certainly are far more appealing as villains than DR
 
Particularly in light of the interview with Michael wherein he describes that night, being there, and Lou abducting him and killing him with a knife in the front seat if his car. Pretty sure that was followed up.
 
Can't wait till later! Very interested in what you're thinking.

Disclaimer, please read first: this is not a conclusion but is where I’m at after looking at the driveway and little else. Please keep that in mind. I've looked at this case all of about one week and I have a whole lot to learn, with a lot more data dumping on the horizon.

The challenge in this case is that the behaviors demonstrated at this crime scene are different depending on whether or not the personalities present kidnapped the victim by foot or car. In other words, it is precisely this final moment in the abduction that serves as the fulcrum for understanding the psychology present.

It is well-known in criminology that something like 85% of persons on death row can be shown clinically to harbor a personality disorder. But testing for these often generates false negatives because the subjects are so good at deception. For this reason, it is almost certain that percentage is closer to 100%. And these persons come from all backgrounds, including very intelligent persons from a high SES. The lesson for anyone looking at the crime scene of a capital crime is that it is almost certain a personality disorder was present. This is a powerful clue because a limited range of behavior types are highly predictable with personality disorders while with “normal” subjects they are not. This is their weakness, and a clever person with experiential, personal experience with Axis II persons can spot this easily. So, the first step on a crime scene should be to identify the type of disorder present. Once you know this, behaviors for which no direct evidence exists are reliably predictable, provided you have a good understanding of what specific behaviors are predictable and which ones are not. Thus, this subset of predictable behaviors will overlap with the sufferer’s modus operandi. This can then be used to guide investigators toward the collection of more direct evidence.

So it can be said that the same personality that lifted a “stranger” of approximately 75 pounds onto his back and ran a distance probably not greater than 100 meters is the same personality that posed a nonsensical question to JEW and two minor witnesses; that is, the personality was actively engaged in deception at the crime scene. We can understand this if we imagine S1 (our suspect) running JEW up the driveway, then slowing to a walk as he left the driveway. This is consistent with flight as the primary concern; that is, a desire to augment the distance from the crime scene that is maximum at the crime scene itself. But doing the reverse is a sign of a thinking sufferer who is concerned with appearances and deception. He is concerned with moving rapidly at key points in the flight, not just generally. Right now, this draws our attention to Histrionic Personality Disorder and Narcissistic Personality Disorder. We’ll see more as we go.

Likewise, the same personalities that colluded to kidnap an 11 year old child in the prosaic, rapid manner they did are the same personalities that openly and credibly reported their presence at the crime scene on or about 2003 or 2004. If the evidence at the crime scene represents abduction by lifting a child into a car without opening the doors, this suggests what we’d expect with a personality or personalities who have prioritized flight “correctly”. They are not “thinking” about deception as much. Right now, this draws our attention to Anti-Social Personality because the elements of deception and histrionics are features associated with other personality disorders. Clearly, they are nasty folks likely guilty of a capital crime, but now we know more.

The same personality that transmitted disinformation to the authorities via two minor witnesses is the same personality that harbored a magical belief in his or her ability to abduct an 11 year old at the foot of his or her own driveway and not be suspected of the act. The street smarts and dark humor involved in putting out this mythos about ages is clever and characteristic of a particular personality type; that of the malignant narcissist (malignant is a catch-all that usually refers to an NPD with features of anti-social).

Due to a lack of information, it is unknown why the personality that abducted this child by car posed questions related to the child’s age, but the source of that request almost certainly came from a female. In the case of a car being involved, we don’t see the runner personality that would substantiate a pattern of NPD-like features. Rather, we see what is only a circumstantial oddity we need to explain. So, this wasn’t likely the result of an attempt to deceive.

The same personality that designed disinformation is the same personality that found not only utility but wild humor in the act itself. Now NPD waxes strong, as this is a condescending and edifying goal of the designer. Every single person who reads about the case was the intended audience, and the intention is to prove to his ego how stupid they are and how smart he is as they go and chase wild leads about the “boy’s ages”.

The same personality that abducted a child by lifting the victim to his back is a personality most likely to be an Axis II Narcissistic Personality and who harbored a magical belief in his intimacy with the victim. Combined with the identification of this personality supra with that of a personality dissembling with dark humor, this personality was most likely moderate to severe Axis II and not a good candidate for treatment. Finally, the NPD pattern is salient to anyone with intimate experience with personality disorders. With the addition of some formal education, it is possible to quickly “size up” the personality from viewing a crime scene. Given the presence of, and pathological affinity for, deception, there is also the likelihood that the firearm used was a replica or stage gun.

Combining the feature set, this personality most likely harbored an Axis II Narcissistic Personality with features of Axis II Anti-Social and Axis II Histrionic Personality.

The “immature” aspects of this crime, dressing goofy with hose on his head and a stage gun, most likely derive of Histrionic Personality Disorder as associated with the primary disorder of Narcissistic Personality.

Combining the foregoing, this runner personality was most likely above average intelligence and therefore rare in this type of felony. The personality that abducted a child preoccupied only with aspects of flight (as opposed to a flight planned to conceal information), and who exposed themselves years later by credibly reporting to have been at the crime scene in an automobile, is most likely of lower than average intelligence.

The same personality preoccupied with aspects of flight (as normally expected) was the same personality who posed questions at the direction of a confederate who was herself most likely female. The reasons for the inquiry, at least to the culprits, was prosaic.

Both confederates using an automobile most likely harbored an Axis II Anti-Social Personality with co-morbidities unknown due to a lack of information. One or both of these two persons likely had imagined or real connections to law enforcement. Due to this lack of information, a determination of the disposition of the victim is not possible. Nor is it likely to be able to predict, based on the disorder presenting in both confederates and other details, the disposition of best evidence, if it exists.

The victim’s behavior at the crime scene provided no indications of the presence of a personality disorder and, at that age, would have been an unstable indicator in any case. Rather, the victim demonstrated a personality consistent with an influencing component vice a dominant component (Axis I): this victim most likely would have attempted to negotiate their safety rather than fight or escape. This finding is weak as it is derived of only two indicators left at the scene.

The same personality that harbored a moderate to severe Axis II Narcissistic Personality was most likely male (crime scene only), most likely had a dark sense of humor, most likely feels immense shame over the event to the extent that it harms their public reputation, most likely employed a replica firearm in the attack, most likely is employed in an occupation which gives him access to children in the same age range as the victim, most likely took the victim to a basement or hidden dwelling (but probably his own dwelling) within 100 meters of the last known impression of JEW, likely sexually assaulted him for approximately one hour, and likely murdered him with a blunt instrument.

In this case, this victim most likely expired at approximately 10:40 p.m. 22 October 1989 local time with a cause of death most likely blunt force trauma to the head. Given the intelligence of the sufferer, the victim’s remains were most likely not left intact, and were likely processed either by cutting, grinding or incineration or some combination thereof. Those remains most likely were removed from the property early by foot and buried along an accessible foot trail within 5 miles of the sufferer’s property. Investigators should seek shallow graves containing bone or ash or both within 50 feet of all known trails leading from that property at that time. Investigators should be aware of the possible presence of personal items of the victim indiscriminately mixed within but not all of which will be found (which should not be surprising, but some items may have been deliberately kept by the sufferer). Indications by the sufferer that something “might” be found on his property are a clever, passive ruse.

The evidentiary cleanup likely occurred in a two-stage “dissembling assembly” of evidence whereby a quick cleanup was performed initially. As we’ve seen before, the second stage likely occurred right under the noses of authorities. Several hours into the night, a more complete cleanup occurred which might have extended into the next 3 days. All evidence was likely removed within 4 days. Stage 1 likely completed at approximately 11:20 p.m. 22 October, 1989 local time. Due to the staging nature of the cleanup, a “holding area” on the property probably existed at one time.

The victim, in the one case, was an 11 year-old child, was smaller and weaker than his attacker, likely attempted to engage his attacker with means not understood by a personality of this kind, was terrorized by an abduction and threat of a firearm, was taken alone into unfamiliar surroundings, likely heard the arrival of a State police helicopter, was likely attacked by a person harboring a moderate to severe personality disorder, was likely the victim of a strong male who acted with cool deliberation, speed, strength and ruthlessness of agency; and likely suffered not less than 85 minutes. The victim’s tarry of expiration (start of attack to code blue) was likely about 10 minutes.

This was an aggravated first degree murder with malice and forethought, a felony abduction of a minor, a felony sexual assault of a minor, a felony physical assault of a minor and an unlawful detention of a minor. This attacker is unusually dangerous due to the combination of the disorders cited and a high intelligence and it would be in the better public interest that he be institutionalized for the remainder of his natural life. The travel history of this person should be scrutinized. Any male minor still missing from places within 30 miles coincident to travel destinations and times of the sufferer should be re-examined. All like homicides should be re-opened and evaluated on account of the intelligence of the sufferer. Due to the type of disorder present, this person most likely will not kill again in the vicinity of St. Joseph, MN, but it is unlikely he stopped killing before the age of 45.

In order to justify such a search for remains, the involvement of one male and one female sufferer in an automobile should be absolutely ruled out first as the preponderance of evidence in the driveway points rather to that conclusion. Given that law enforcement has spent 25 years on this case with no result, and given the compelling circumstantial case against the two sufferers, law enforcement protestations of their innocence should be regarded as naked assertions. It would be in the better public interest for law enforcement to state clearly and fully what evidence they have that is exculpatory as this has a direct bearing on resolution of the case.

As I’ve said, we should be looking for a male and a female in an open top car whose driver goes by the name of “Kevin” OR we should be looking for an athletic man now in his 50’s who had legitimate access to the Rassier property on the night of 22 October 1989. And we do not have enough information to decide which party was responsible. I put those odds, based on very limited information, at 50/50. With more information known to be available I believe the final disposition of the victim can be resolved and the parties responsible clearly identified with a low uncertainty.

~ svh
 
Great deductive reasoning Sigrun! I felt like I was reading a LE textbook. Wow.

I don't believe anything LE says about suspects or rule outs for Jacob's case since it has been 25 years and they haven't solved this case. Also Stearns County (the one in charge of the investigation) has covered up crimes listing murders as accidents and not solving other murder cases. Usually police give reasons why people close to or at the crime scene were ruled out.

What about the FBI study that indicates that people who abduct children do not frequently have daily contact with children? You believe otherwise.
 
Tammy, this was posted by Leprikawn on 10/18/12:

Richard D. Bahner (August 28, 1941 - February 16, 2012) was the father of brothers Richard David Bahner, Jr. (born March 16, 1965), and Michael Alan Bahner (born April 18, 1972). Richard Sr. was predeceased by his son Alan Boyd Bahner (February 14, 1964 – October 7, 1998).

On April 4, 1995, brothers Richard Bahner, Jr., and Michael Bahner were charged with felony criminal sexual conduct involving the sodomy and other sexual abuse of a 7-year-old boy who was an acquaintance of the Bahner family. The sexual abuse occurred in 1990. At that time, the Bahner family resided in Clearwater, MN (Wright county).

On August 30, 1985, Richard Bahner, Sr., was charged with felony criminal sexual conduct for having sexual intercourse with a minor female between August 1984 and March 1985, at his residence at 1020 Porter Street, Clearwater, MN.

On April 16, 1985, Alan Boyd Bahner was charged with felony criminal sexual conduct for having sexual intercourse with a 10-year-old girl on several occasions in 1983 at his residence in Clearwater, MN.

Richard Bahner, Sr.’s 2012 obituary is easily found via Google.

The court records related to the criminal charges referenced above are easily found at the Minnesota Judicial Branch public case access web site: http://www.mncourts.gov/publicaccess
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-118670-p-4.html
 
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