MN MN - Madeline Jane Kingsbury, 26, mother of 2, Winona 31 Mar 2023

[WingsOverTX]

That's not a wholly true statement. In the court petition filed by Winona County, on page 3, 10 c states -

That the children EF and NF, are in need of protection or services within the meaning ofMinn. Stat. 260C007, Subd. (9) in that the behavior, condition, or environment is such as to be injurious or dangerous to the children or others. An injurious or dangerous environment may include, but is not limited to, the exposure ofthe children to criminal activity in the children's home.

Madeline Kingsbury: Court docs, Minnesota police contradict claims from father of missing woman's kids

Court documents revealed Adam Fravel doesn't have custodial rights of the children that he had with missing Minnesota mom Madeline Kingsbury and allege a volatile standoff with Fravel.

www.foxnews.com

Very telling, IMHO.

To anyone who can help:
I'm not understanding the purpose of laws that focus on an ROP being used when two bio parents live with the children full-time. Would marriage have conveyed custodial rights to this father? It's good that MN law addresses parental rights but are children really more likely to be protected by these laws?

Also, if the children are in state custody, do we know if they are staying with family or with strangers (foster parents)?

TIA & MOO

 

[hparker36]

Very telling, IMHO.

To anyone who can help:
I'm not understanding the purpose of laws that focus on an ROP being used when two bio parents live with the children full-time. Would marriage have conveyed custodial rights to this father? It's good that MN law addresses parental rights but are children really more likely to be protected by these laws?

Also, if the children are in state custody, do we know if they are staying with family or with strangers (foster parents)?

TIA & MOO

From what I understand these are the laws for unmarried parents. If they are unmarried and never did the ROP then there is so no proof in that state of ROP. one or the other needs to get ROP so they can do the next step to to parental custody.

 

[PommyMommy]

APR 14, 2023

Kingsbury's children in custody of Winona County Health and Human Services officials

Winona County Health and Human Services officials have taken custody of Madeline Kingsbury’s two children.

chippewa.com

• Winona County Health and Human Services officials have custody of Maddi's children.
• Earlier this month, the Winona Police Department notified County Health and Human Services that a 72-hour hold would be placed on the children.
• Adam Fravel does not have custody, which meant the kids had no legal decision-maker in their mother’s absence.
• The children were located at Fravel’s parents’ house April 4 when law enforcement and social workers enacted the 72-hour hold.
• The child in need of protective services petition, filed April 6, states Fravel eventually brought the children outside to the vehicle.
• “Father was unwilling to gather belongs for the children therefore the children left the home with only the clothes they were wearing,” the court filing states.
• Winona County Health and Human Services will determine the access Fravel and family members have to the children.
• A pretrial date is set for May 15 with the children’s custody trial set to be June 6-7.

 

[Knox]

Is that an allegation or a finding?

I'm not an Attorney, nor am I privy to why DHS feels the children are in danger with Adam Fravel - is that a rhetorical question?

To me, it's reasonable to remove the children until the custody issues are resolved in court. Notwithstanding, he very likely killed their Mother, IMO. Why risk the children's safety at this point in time?

 

[Knox]

Very telling, IMHO.

To anyone who can help:
I'm not understanding the purpose of laws that focus on an ROP being used when two bio parents live with the children full-time. Would marriage have conveyed custodial rights to this father? It's good that MN law addresses parental rights but are children really more likely to be protected by these laws?

Also, if the children are in state custody, do we know if they are staying with family or with strangers (foster parents)?

TIA & MOO

As for her 5-year-old niece and 2-year-old nephew, Megan Kingsbury says she has seen them and the kids are in "a safe place."

Sister of Maddi Kingsbury updates case, shares details surrounding her disappearance

Megan Kingsbury says she and her family are waiting with "bated breath" until they learn where Maddi is, and the circumstances behind her disappearance.

www.kare11.com

 

[KJ's Mamu]

My mind has been running in circles thinking about poor Maddi and where she could be. Since Maddi has not been found despite an extensive search, I decided to focus my thoughts on possible reasons why she hasn't been found. Using my "not always sound" logic, I've made a short list of scenarios below and indicated if I considered the scenario to be likely or not.

To stay within TOS, I will use the term "the perpetrator" to identify the person responsible for the disappearance of Maddi.

1) Maddi is hiding voluntarily; based on all descriptions of her commitment to her kids/family, this scenario is impossible, IMO

2) Maddi harmed herself; based on all descriptions of her commitment to her kids/family this scenario is highly unlikely, IMO

3) Abducted and being held captive some place by the perpetrator; possible, however IMO, unlikely.

4) Premeditated plan by the perpetrator, with a previously created site for body disposal this is not easily found; possible but IMO, unlikely

5) Premeditated plan by the perpetrator, with an accomplice that met the perpetrator at a designated place to pass the body on so it could be disposed of further away than the perpetrator could have travelled in the time window from 10 am to 1:30 pm. This would place the body outside of the anticipated search area; possible but IMO, unlikely

6) Premeditated plan by the perpetrator for Maddi to be abducted by someone other than the perpetrator and taken outside of the anticipated search area for disposal; possible but IMO, unlikely

7) Unplanned and sudden act of violence by the perpetrator with subsequent disposal of body in a waterway - river, lake or pond; possible scenario, IMO

8) Unplanned and sudden act of violence by the perpetrator with subsequent disposal of the body with help from a second party, perhaps on private property that won't be searched; most likely scenario, IMO.

I wish we knew what the father of her children does to make a living that would require him to use Maddi's van, as well as allow him to work a rather short shift of 10 am to 1:30 pm? And, is this a normal work day schedule for him? If so, and Maddi works from home, who would know she is alone during that timeframe?

I can't stop thinking about Maddi, her kids and her family. Prayers for them all for peace and strength.

 

[otto]

How about that. The mother went missing after 10 AM March 31. The father reported her missing the following day.

The children were picked up from daycare on March 31 by their father. Police want footage of the van on April 1 until 4 PM. When were the children placed in the care of the father's parents? Did they arrive April 1, or April 4?

Was the father so traumatized by his missing wife that he delivered his children to his parents and then fought the law when it came to custody?

It took 2 days before he relinquished the children to social workers.

 

[PommyMommy]

How about that. The mother went missing after 10 AM March 31. The father reported her missing the following day.

The children were picked up from daycare on March 31 by their father. Police want footage of the van on April 1 until 4 PM. When were the children placed in the care of the father's parents? Did they arrive April 1, or April 4?

Was the father so traumatized by his missing wife that he delivered his children to his parents and then fought the law when it came to custody?

It took 2 days before he relinquished the children to social workers.

Adam didn't report Maddi missing, her family did, the morning of Saturday April 1.

The children were never placed in the care of the father's parents. That is where LE and WCHHS found them when they took custody on April 4.

It didn't take two days before he relinquished the children. He eventually handed them over after the dispute with authorities, calls to his lawyer, etc.

Missing Madeline Kingsbury: Timeline Of Her Disappearance, Search Efforts - Fox21Online

WINONA, Minn. (FOX 9) – Madeline Jane Kingsbury, 26, went missing on March 31 and has not had any contact with friends or family since. The father of her children is believed to have been the last person to see her. Here’s what we know about her disappearance so far and the timeline of the...

www.fox21online.com

 

[Gut_feeling]

My mind has been running in circles thinking about poor Maddi and where she could be. Since Maddi has not been found despite an extensive search, I decided to focus my thoughts on possible reasons why she hasn't been found. Using my "not always sound" logic, I've made a short list of scenarios below and indicated if I considered the scenario to be likely or not.

To stay within TOS, I will use the term "the perpetrator" to identify the person responsible for the disappearance of Maddi.

1) Maddi is hiding voluntarily; based on all descriptions of her commitment to her kids/family, this scenario is impossible, IMO

2) Maddi harmed herself; based on all descriptions of her commitment to her kids/family this scenario is highly unlikely, IMO

3) Abducted and being held captive some place by the perpetrator; possible, however IMO, unlikely.

4) Premeditated plan by the perpetrator, with a previously created site for body disposal this is not easily found; possible but IMO, unlikely

5) Premeditated plan by the perpetrator, with an accomplice that met the perpetrator at a designated place to pass the body on so it could be disposed of further away than the perpetrator could have travelled in the time window from 10 am to 1:30 pm. This would place the body outside of the anticipated search area; possible but IMO, unlikely

6) Premeditated plan by the perpetrator for Maddi to be abducted by someone other than the perpetrator and taken outside of the anticipated search area for disposal; possible but IMO, unlikely

7) Unplanned and sudden act of violence by the perpetrator with subsequent disposal of body in a waterway - river, lake or pond; possible scenario, IMO

8) Unplanned and sudden act of violence by the perpetrator with subsequent disposal of the body with help from a second party, perhaps on private property that won't be searched; most likely scenario, IMO.

I wish we knew what the father of her children does to make a living that would require him to use Maddi's van, as well as allow him to work a rather short shift of 10 am to 1:30 pm? And, is this a normal work day schedule for him? If so, and Maddi works from home, who would know she is alone during that timeframe?

I can't stop thinking about Maddi, her kids and her family. Prayers for them all for peace and strength.

Regarding your scenario #8, this is what I have thought was most likely, due to the fact that Adam's parents live just off of the highway (43) where the police say a van just like hers was traveling. (Also, about an hour fROM her house, plenty of time to get back by 1:30pm.)

Wouldn't the police have enough to justify a search warrant of their property? Or is what they have just not enough???
I wonder if the police have asked to search their property and were told "no", or, I guess there's always the possibility the area has been searched. However, its a few acres and it seems like if any sort of police presence was out there it would have been noticed and reported via the local news and civilian searchers still out there.

 

[AllGrace]

How do we know the police have MOT searched AF’s family property?

 

[JennieM]

If AF is the one responsible for Maddi's disappearance, he must be very naive to think he can carry on parenting those children. He will get found out, he will get charged. He will have sacrificed everything he's ever had, most importantly his children.

Babis Anagnostopoulos who murdered his young wife Caroline Crouch in Greece in May 2021 thought he and his family could still be involved in raising his daughter. Well, the law thought differently. The girl has relocated to the Philippines, Caroline's parents have full custody. Anagnostopoulos' parents have access to the girl 1 hour a week via Skype or other electronic means.

'Crouch’s wife Susan, who is of Filipino descent, has already moved with Lydia to Manila, where the little girl is being raised with her cousins.

A court order stipulated last month that her Greek grandparents could have one hour of access to her “via Skype or other electronic means” per week.'

Father of woman killed by husband in Greece to look after granddaughter ‘far away’

David Crouch to raise daughter of murdered Caroline Crouch in the Philippines, where her grandmother has relocated

www.theguardian.com

 

[JennieM]

Search continues for Madeline Kingsbury​

The Finding Madeline Kingsbury Facebook Page told people on Friday, 14 April that they would be searching for Ms Kingsbury over the weekend via horseback.
“We are beyond [grateful] and overwhelmed with the amount of equine volunteers that have reached out. Because of this we are working to best figure out where to utilize everyone. We are working with law enforcement to sort out a plan, please do not contact their offices to limit traffic to equine coordinators, admins, and law enforcement.”
Ms Kingsbury has been missing for two weeks.

Missing Madeline Kingsbury planned to move from home shared with kids’s father - live

Adam Fravel, the father of Madeline Kingsbury’s children, has denied any involvement in her disappearance

www.independent.co.uk

 

[JennieM]

Updated police press update and Kingsbury family statement from April 12

 

[Damarna]

This may have been posted, but just as an FYI; regarding paternity in Minnesota :

Paternity" is the term used to refer to the legal father of a child under Minnesota law. Once a man is established as the legal father of a child, he has an obligation to financially support the child and he may ask for a court order for custody and parenting time.

While every child has a biological father, establishment of a legal father is not always automatic. Under Minnesota law, if a child's biological mother and biological father are not married to each other when the child is born, the biological father is not recognized as the legal father until someone takes legal steps to establish paternity. The biological father has no legal rights to the child or responsibilities to financially support the child, even if his name is on the child's birth certificate. The birth certificate alone is not enough to establish a legal father.

For a more detailed overview, watch the Establishing Parentage video from the MN Department of Human Services.

Minnesota Judicial Branch - Paternity

www.mncourts.gov

 

[FBI Wannabe]

SBM

Houses up and down the street from where Maddi lived, may have doorbell cams or security cameras that LE has looked at, which don't show Maddi walking past. These cameras may also show no other "unknown" vehicles coming and going.

Unless there is a camera pointing directly at Maddi's townhouse, no one knows what happened between 8:15 AM and 1:30 PM as far as who may have entered or exited the house during that time.

I have a doorbell cam but it doesn't pick up cars or people walking unless they come up to my house. I think most people have them set that way because who would want all those alerts.

 

[Knox]

My mind has been running in circles thinking about poor Maddi and where she could be. Since Maddi has not been found despite an extensive search, I decided to focus my thoughts on possible reasons why she hasn't been found. Using my "not always sound" logic, I've made a short list of scenarios below and indicated if I considered the scenario to be likely or not.

To stay within TOS, I will use the term "the perpetrator" to identify the person responsible for the disappearance of Maddi.

1) Maddi is hiding voluntarily; based on all descriptions of her commitment to her kids/family, this scenario is impossible, IMO

2) Maddi harmed herself; based on all descriptions of her commitment to her kids/family this scenario is highly unlikely, IMO

3) Abducted and being held captive some place by the perpetrator; possible, however IMO, unlikely.

4) Premeditated plan by the perpetrator, with a previously created site for body disposal this is not easily found; possible but IMO, unlikely

5) Premeditated plan by the perpetrator, with an accomplice that met the perpetrator at a designated place to pass the body on so it could be disposed of further away than the perpetrator could have travelled in the time window from 10 am to 1:30 pm. This would place the body outside of the anticipated search area; possible but IMO, unlikely

6) Premeditated plan by the perpetrator for Maddi to be abducted by someone other than the perpetrator and taken outside of the anticipated search area for disposal; possible but IMO, unlikely

7) Unplanned and sudden act of violence by the perpetrator with subsequent disposal of body in a waterway - river, lake or pond; possible scenario, IMO

8) Unplanned and sudden act of violence by the perpetrator with subsequent disposal of the body with help from a second party, perhaps on private property that won't be searched; most likely scenario, IMO.

I wish we knew what the father of her children does to make a living that would require him to use Maddi's van, as well as allow him to work a rather short shift of 10 am to 1:30 pm? And, is this a normal work day schedule for him? If so, and Maddi works from home, who would know she is alone during that timeframe?

I can't stop thinking about Maddi, her kids and her family. Prayers for them all for peace and strength.

Just a thought. Madi’s sister has said the relationship was ending. Perhaps he was using the van to move his things out of the home? That would also make sense of the time in the home after drop off of the kids. He was loading the vehicle and heading to his folks house in Mabel.

Could explain away any potential security camera footage of loading things up in the van as well. Nothing to see here, loaded up the van and headed to Fillmore county.

 

[Joe Friday]

My mind has been running in circles thinking about poor Maddi and where she could be. Since Maddi has not been found despite an extensive search, I decided to focus my thoughts on possible reasons why she hasn't been found. Using my "not always sound" logic, I've made a short list of scenarios below and indicated if I considered the scenario to be likely or not.

To stay within TOS, I will use the term "the perpetrator" to identify the person responsible for the disappearance of Maddi.

1) Maddi is hiding voluntarily; based on all descriptions of her commitment to her kids/family, this scenario is impossible, IMO

2) Maddi harmed herself; based on all descriptions of her commitment to her kids/family this scenario is highly unlikely, IMO

3) Abducted and being held captive some place by the perpetrator; possible, however IMO, unlikely.

4) Premeditated plan by the perpetrator, with a previously created site for body disposal this is not easily found; possible but IMO, unlikely

5) Premeditated plan by the perpetrator, with an accomplice that met the perpetrator at a designated place to pass the body on so it could be disposed of further away than the perpetrator could have travelled in the time window from 10 am to 1:30 pm. This would place the body outside of the anticipated search area; possible but IMO, unlikely

6) Premeditated plan by the perpetrator for Maddi to be abducted by someone other than the perpetrator and taken outside of the anticipated search area for disposal; possible but IMO, unlikely

7) Unplanned and sudden act of violence by the perpetrator with subsequent disposal of body in a waterway - river, lake or pond; possible scenario, IMO

8) Unplanned and sudden act of violence by the perpetrator with subsequent disposal of the body with help from a second party, perhaps on private property that won't be searched; most likely scenario, IMO.

I wish we knew what the father of her children does to make a living that would require him to use Maddi's van, as well as allow him to work a rather short shift of 10 am to 1:30 pm? And, is this a normal work day schedule for him? If so, and Maddi works from home, who would know she is alone during that timeframe?

I can't stop thinking about Maddi, her kids and her family. Prayers for them all for peace and strength.

9) Unplanned and sudden act of violence solely by the perpetrator with subsequent disposal of the body, on public or private property frequented or familiar to the perpetrator;

10) Unplanned and sudden act of violence solely by the perpetrator with subsequent disposal of the body, perhaps on private property within one (1) mile radius of perpetrators prior home;


I have seen it many times. When a perpetrator disposes of a body they do so at a place familiar to them. I think in their minds they think where would be the best place to do this, somewhere that no one will find the body and place the body there. If they have the time and means to transport the body, they may pick a place that is a considerable distance away from the crime scene. Usually somewhere they are familiar with. They may think it is somewhere no one would see what they are doing and no one would think to look for a body there. They know this because these places tend to be places the perpetrator is familiar with, somewhere they have been before or somewhere close to where they may have grown up and played when they were younger and frequented in the past.


JMO

 

[Joe Friday]

Just a thought. Madi’s sister has said the relationship was ending. Perhaps he was using the van to move his things out of the home? That would also make sense of the time in the home after drop off of the kids. He was loading the vehicle and heading to his folks house in Mabel.

Could explain away any potential security camera footage of loading things up in the van as well. Nothing to see here, loaded up the van and headed to Fillmore county.

If that was the case, why would LE be asking the public to check their cameras along the route they think the van took? AF would have told LE why he was using the van and where he went, which could have been corroborated by his family. members.

Maddi was the one said to be looking for a new place to stay.

 

[Knox]

That’s the whole point. Maybe his story can’t be corroborated? The times he has given don’t make sense or video times don’t match. We don’t know what evidence LE has.

Similar to what he said about attending searches and press conferences in his statement the other day …. the PIO contradicted him.

 

[Joe Friday]

That’s the whole point. Maybe his story can’t be corroborated? The times he has given don’t make sense or video times don’t match. We don’t know what evidence LE has.

Similar to what he said about attending searches and press conferences in his statement the other day ….

OR maybe his attorney advised him not to answer any questions or even be interviewed by LE, so there is no "his story"