MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #10

[Raebie]

If she was out of her head crazy due to the meds(or for any other reason for that matter), why did the mental hospital return her to custody after they evaluated her that Saturday?

 

[bigflaw]

great post !

I totally believe what Alyssa did is one of the most horrific things I have ever read about in crime cases. She needs to to be locked up for sure ! I have a 9 yr old and a 15 yr old so this case hits me hard.

With that said...I am still questioning the use of antidepressants, especially in kids. I have a nephew that it was a wonder drug for ! No problems !
But my family also experienced an attempted murder on my 11 yr old niece alittle over a year ago....the perp was an 11 yr old boy....he was on Prozac.

I had a bad reaction after MONTHS on Effexor XR....but I want to stick with kids/teens on Prozac (and other antidepressants)....

There are sooooooooooo many reported cases of murders, attempted murders, suicides, school shootings, severe aggression, severe violence, etc....and in those cases reported, the common factor was that the people were "on" antidepressants (besides having mental stuff going on anyways)...

Many of you have probably already seen this, its been around for years and the "cases" continue to make the list longer & longer every passing year.

Its a great read if you havnt seen it...

http://ssristories.com/index.php?sort=drug

I just have to wonder....what IF ? Actually, theres so many "what IFs" I have, I doubt it will be figured out in my lifetime...but I would like to know if this type of drug plays ANY PART in all of the reported cases....and even the cases that arent listed.

You have a serious chicken and egg problem here.

But... There has been no direct link between depression medications and violence. These are people who would have been violent anyway. In some way this was noticed and they were medicated. To blame medication for people's actions is, IMO, irresponsible (with the exception of VERY few cases, this not being one of them). It can't be known how much violence has been prevented because of these medications either. But either way, and I am not criticising your post, people need to stop the, "Ohhh, she was on Prozac. That makes sense...".

 

[desquire]

She will be tried as an adult. However, in the state of Missouri if a person is under 16 when the crime is commited they are not eligible for the death penalty only life w/o parole.

Actually that's true everywhere now. In 2005 the Supreme Court ruled that it is unconstitutional to sentence anyone to death for a crime committed while younger than 18. They recently heard - but haven't yet decided - two cases testing whether it is unconstitutionally cruel and unusual punishment to sentence a juvenile to life in prison without parole. But Alyssa should not hold her breath on that one as it would only apply for a crime that does not involve a death.

 

[vjlaw]

If she was out of her head crazy due to the meds(or for any other reason for that matter), why did the mental hospital return her to custody after they evaluated her that Saturday?

Would they have a place to hold her? Maybe they were afraid she might try to escape. It is a children's hospital. How many child killers do they deal with?

 

[Only]

I'm not sure if this has been posted or not. I found it on the news station I watch here in St. Louis. It's Cole County Prosecutor, Mark Richardson talking about the charges.

http://www.ksdk.com/video/default.aspx?bctid=51212983001#/Police%3A%20Alyssa%20Bustamante%20charged%20for%20murder%20of%209%2Dyear%2Dold/51212983001

My apologies if someone already posted.

 

[Csquare]

Actually that's true everywhere now. In 2005 the Supreme Court ruled that it is unconstitutional to sentence anyone to death for a crime committed while younger than 18. They recently heard - but haven't yet decided - two cases testing whether it is unconstitutionally cruel and unusual punishment to sentence a juvenile to life in prison without parole. But Alyssa should not hold her breath on that one as it would only apply for a crime that does not involve a death.

Thank you. I could have sworn I had read where she had to be 16 at the time of the crime to be eligible for the death penalty.

 

[LadyBug99]

This is a plausible therory. The only thing that makes me think someone else was planned for that grave was the Judge stoped the MSHP Inv from answering who the other grave was for. That in itself leads me to believe it was someone else.

I also agree with you because why wouldn't Alyssa just bury her clothes with Elizabeth. But the theory did get me a little curious. I wonder if she did have clothes, knife etc. waiting in the woods....

However, locals have said that it was raining alot in Oct. so I don't think she would leave her "clean" clothes in the rain and mud....Has there every been mention of any sort of fort or tree house? I know that growing up my brothers and I would have little hangouts in the woods. TIA

 

[Raebie]

Would they have a place to hold her? Maybe they were afraid she might try to escape. It is a children's hospital. How many child killers do they deal with?

I would think they would have sent her to an intitution that *could* provide this rather than back to a junvenile detention facility.

 

[desquire]

Thank you. I could have sworn I had read where she had to be 16 at the time of the crime to be eligible for the death penalty.

You probably did. The law in Missouri was 16 but then in 2003 the Missouri Supreme Court declared that law unconstitutional. The State of Missouri appealed to the US Supreme Court and the result was that 2005 decision I referred to (The US Supreme Court upheld the Missouri Supreme Court and 18 thus became the national standard).

 

[desquire]

I also agree with you because why wouldn't Alyssa just bury her clothes with Elizabeth. But the theory did get me a little curious. I wonder if she did have clothes, knife etc. waiting in the woods....

However, locals have said that it was raining alot in Oct. so I don't think she would leave her "clean" clothes in the rain and mud....Has there every been mention of any sort of fort or tree house? I know that growing up my brothers and I would have little hangouts in the woods. TIA

I recall an early post by a local who participated in the search that mentioned there being many shacks or huts and abandoned vehicles in those woods. I don't remember seeing any visible in the satellite views of the woods.

 

[Elley Mae]

I'm not sure if this has been posted or not. I found it on the news station I watch here in St. Louis. It's Cole County Prosecutor, Mark Richardson talking about the charges.

http://www.ksdk.com/video/default.aspx?bctid=51212983001#/Police%3A%20Alyssa%20Bustamante%20charged%20for%20murder%20of%209%2Dyear%2Dold/51212983001

My apologies if someone already posted.

thanks, I noticed that he said "cool reflection on the matter" but would go into details, this as far as the first degree murder charge. I am thinking that the grave dug 5 days prier would be one reason.

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

You have a serious chicken and egg problem here.

But... There has been no direct link between depression medications and violence. These are people who would have been violent anyway. In some way this was noticed and they were medicated. To blame medication for people's actions is, IMO, irresponsible (with the exception of VERY few cases, this not being one of them). It can't be known how much violence has been prevented because of these medications either. But either way, and I am not criticising your post, people need to stop the, "Ohhh, she was on Prozac. That makes sense...".

I havnt seen anyone blame the medication in Alyssas case..Its the whole chicken / egg thing that makes me wonder...everytime I hear of a case like this, my first question is "were they on drugs".

I just think about it , thats all.
Now I have read many articles, medical journal reports, etc....that some antidepressants MAY cause or exaggerate violence & aggression as a side effect....that includes violence targeted onto themselves.
Alot on Google/Scholar & net in general.


And I am not one who says "the prozac made her do it" or "God made him do it" or whatever....
I just always look at everything in detail.

 

[vjlaw]

I would think they would have sent her to an intitution that *could* provide this rather than back to a junvenile detention facility.

She may have not been as bad as someone at Prenger thought. Could have just been a precaution by Prenger.

 

[Jodibug]

I recall an early post by a local who participated in the search that mentioned there being many shacks or huts and abandoned vehicles in those woods. I don't remember seeing any visible in the satellite views of the woods.

That was me. Some of the smaller single ones I was unable to find on the satellite pics. Woods too thick, I guess.

But if you search West of Galena you will find one bunch of shacks and cars, sort of a junk yard. Dozens of them all together.... this is the area my search team went through. We searched all the shacks/sheds/cars/busses/one semi cab, old RV's, ect....

They were there.

Find Bittersweet Way on Google Satellite Maps.... go to the furthest West point on that road and then look just West of where the street ends.

I did also just find a couple of scattered sheds in the woods between Galena Drive (head West) and the Western end of Bittersweet Way.

 

[LadyBug99]

I recall an early post by a local who participated in the search that mentioned there being many shacks or huts and abandoned vehicles in those woods. I don't remember seeing any visible in the satellite views of the woods.

I'm wondering if she kept things such a change of clothes, knife etc. in one of those shacks. Possible place where the murder took place? I would be curious to see if the graves were next to one. I did read that she had been in trouble for staying in the woods over night in the past.

Question to the locals who helped in the search:

Did you see any of these "shacks" in the woods?

 

[Raebie]

She may have not been as bad as someone at Prenger thought. Could have just been a precaution by Prenger.

That's what I'm thinking. It would be interesting to know how long she was there. If she was that bad off mentally, I would think they would have sent her to an adult facility that has a children's unit. The state has 3 such institutions.

 

[LadyBug99]

Jodibug ~

When you searched the shacks did it appear as if kids hung out in them? Soda/beer bottles, garbage, graffiti etc...

 

[vjlaw]

That's what I'm thinking. It would be interesting to know how long she was there. If she was that bad off mentally, I would think they would have sent her to an adult facility that has a children's unit. The state has 3 such institutions.

Maybe she was hoping to get a cushier bed for awhile and that didn't happen.

 

[Jodibug]

Jodibug ~

When you searched the shacks did it appear as if kids hung out in them? Soda/beer bottles, garbage, graffiti etc...

Nope. Can't say that they looked like kids hangouts.

Most were hunting cabins.

 

[MDATCA]

I have no experience in this area, but was just going by the info about Pathways someone had posted. They have 24 hr emergency and a referral for hospitals. If she was already under the care of Pathways, if that was me living here I would not call 911 for an ambulance to nowhere I would call Pathways for the referral. No one knows how she was acting.

I hadn't seen your post about Pathways when I wrote that. But it proves what I was saying that there are procedures in place that would not be self transporting AB 2 hours away. I just thought that would be a horrible thing to do in a situation like that.