MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #12

[vjlaw]

Yeah, if the judge allowed the objection, then it was not admissible.

No one knows what the officer was going to say. Could be he was going to say he had no idea. Or that she didn't say what it was for or that is it didn't appear to be for anyone. Don't know at all. jmo

 

[PAXIMUS]

He was cut off by an objection from Alyssa's attorney. He said that the hearing was not to discuss the who/what/how/why of the case, r the physical evidence, etc, but to determine if she should be tried as an adult or not.

The state's attorney argued that one of the points she needed to support, involved the severity, or cruelty, of the crime, so she was trying to ask the highway patrolman questions about the actual crime, crime scene, motive, method, etc. After each question was answered, or sometimes DURING an answer, Alyssa's attorney would again object.

So basically the objection was that it was beyond the scope of that hearing.

 

[gliving]

Oh, so there was no search the night she went missing?

Yes, they even brought in the helicopters .

snipped: "The search focused on a section of woods several hundred yards in diameter, which police had narrowed by triangulating the girl's cell phone location, White said. But the battery had died by Thursday morning. An uneven terrain, high brush and soaking weather hampered the search effort.


Emergency vehicles from various agencies were parked along the highway that runs past the houses. Among the nearby farm fields is a large, muddy brown pond.

On Wednesday night, the Missouri State Highway Patrol searched for Elizabeth using a helicopter with a thermal imaging radar. But White said fall foliage hindered that effort. Around 2:30 a.m. Thursday, all but one search team broke.

When the full search of about 60 people resumed later in the morning, a team with dogs used by the Department of Corrections joined officials from nearby fire departments and numerous state and local police agencies.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569073,00.html


We thought it was very good that they caught the phone signals so early, the same night Elizabeth went missing.

Any thoughts as to what Alyssa must have been thinking hearing the helicopters flying over her house? Was she scared or thrilled?

 

[not_my_kids]

Unless AB told him what that grave (hole) was intended for, then anything he can say about it is speculation.

For example: "There was a hole in the ground, that appeared to have been dug, as opposed to being there as a result of a natural occurrence, three feet deep by five feet long. There were no items in this hole." That is admisssible, it is what the officer saw.

"There was a grave dug in the woods, by hand. It was about 3 feet by 5 feet and was meat to hold a second victim's body" This is not admissible. It is the officers interpretation of what he saw...therefore his opinion.

MOO.

 

[AndresEscobar]

He was cut off by an objection from Alyssa's attorney. He said that the hearing was not to discuss the who/what/how/why of the case, r the physical evidence, etc, but to determine if she should be tried as an adult or not.

The state's attorney argued that one of the points she needed to support, involved the severity, or cruelty, of the crime, so she was trying to ask the highway patrolman questions about the actual crime, crime scene, motive, method, etc. After each question was answered, or sometimes DURING an answer, Alyssa's attorney would again object.

It sounds like this was either out of the scope of the hearing or simply something that the highway officer didn't know and couldn't testify to.

The defense attorney has to object like that to preserve the right to appeal if there is appealable error. So that's standard practice.

 

[AndresEscobar]

Yes, they even brought in the helicopters .

snipped: "The search focused on a section of woods several hundred yards in diameter, which police had narrowed by triangulating the girl's cell phone location, White said. But the battery had died by Thursday morning. An uneven terrain, high brush and soaking weather hampered the search effort.


Emergency vehicles from various agencies were parked along the highway that runs past the houses. Among the nearby farm fields is a large, muddy brown pond.

On Wednesday night, the Missouri State Highway Patrol searched for Elizabeth using a helicopter with a thermal imaging radar. But White said fall foliage hindered that effort. Around 2:30 a.m. Thursday, all but one search team broke.

When the full search of about 60 people resumed later in the morning, a team with dogs used by the Department of Corrections joined officials from nearby fire departments and numerous state and local police agencies.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569073,00.html


We thought it was very good that they caught the phone signals so early, the same night Elizabeth went missing.

Any thoughts as to what Alyssa must have been thinking hearing the helicopters flying over her house? Was she scared or thrilled?

This is what I thought, thank you for clarifying this. It's difficult because this case has so much murky information.

 

[Dal Gal]

AB was returning to a huge house after the murder. Around 4000 square feet IIRC (not including the basement.) ILC had stated that this house had numerous entrances, so I believe that AB could have easily gotten into the house without anyone knowing. If her clothes did contain blood evidence, it's not impossible that she could get to her bedroom or even the laundry room sight unseen by the three adults who were home at the time.

 

[AndresEscobar]

important to add re: the objections: If the defense lawyer did not object, he would be committing malpractice. If the lawyer commits malpractice, the eventual verdict could be thrown out if it would show that defendant would have won if not for the malpractice

So, in this particular hearing, had the defense lawyer not objected, and there was an appealable error, and it could be show that if this ruling that AB be tried as an adult would be reversed on appeal, the ruling could get thrown out.

 

[Csquare]

I took a few forensic science classes in college. It takes a lot of force and strength to strangle someone to death. It would also, in my opinion, take a knife bigger than the one in her infamous "stabbing" myspace pic to cut a throat (it looks to be about 2-3 inches long).

If it were a pocket knife, it would have had to been (again, in my opinion) one of the larger "Buck- type" knives.

I have to disagree with part of that statement. It doesn't take a big knife to SLASH. Sharpness is more important for that. STABBING is a different story and I would agree a larger knife would have had to be used to stab her to death. :twocents:

 

[AndresEscobar]

I have to disagree with part of that statement. It doesn't take a big knife to SLASH. Sharpness is more important for that. STABBING is a different story and I would agree a larger knife would have had to be used to stab her to death. :twocents:

I was thinking more of the mechanics of the struggle, so to speak, but I will concede that if the knife was sharp enough, the size might not matter.

 

[LogicalMinds]

From an article that was out before Allyssa's name was released (and before more details came out )

http://news.aol.com/article/missing-missouri-girl-elizabeth-olten/734132

"Police would not say Saturday whether there had been a confession, nor would they describe the teen's demeanor or offer more details about written documents that led them to the suspect"

The emphasis on "written documents" is my own

The "case" against Allyssa is clearly stated here, again with an emphasis on premeditation :

Blessed with a Friday off school, 15-year-old Alyssa Bustamante dug two holes in the ground to be used as a grave, authorities said. For the next week, she attended classes, all the while plotting the right time for a murder, they said.

That time arrived the evening of Oct. 21, when Bustamante strangled 9-year-old neighbor Elizabeth Olten without provocation, cut the girl's throat and stabbed her, prosecutors said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34016501/

This is the stuff they are releasing...it is reasonable to assume that the prosectuion is not putting all of their evidence out there for our reading pleasure...they have a case to build and a prosecution to run

Something led them to Allyssa pretty quickly...and whatever it was apparently resulted in a confession, and she led them to the well concealed grave

the words "written documents" may be the smoking gun here....a dairy or journal of the "plan" and/ or writing about it afterwards?? "Plotting"?? was she plotting this in a journal, etc? the "written documents"?

IF there was indication of other kids, a boy involved...IF there was some indication whatsoever that this was a "jackazz" stunt gone bad or a coverup of an accident, I don't think we would see the charges that we are seeing

the prosecution seems to be focused on this as a premeditated murder
and they were firm about getting the maximum (adult) charges for this...which leads me to concur this is one dangerous person, and hopefully justice will prevail

my feelings are for Elizabeth and her family

 

[not_my_kids]

I have to disagree with part of that statement. It doesn't take a big knife to SLASH. Sharpness is more important for that. STABBING is a different story and I would agree a larger knife would have had to be used to stab her to death. :twocents:

Depends on the location of the stab wounds. Done right, a pocket knife can penetrate an eyeball, hit an artery, or even collapse a lung.
MOO.
It would take skill though, or just dumb luck...if you can really call it luck.

 

[danni]

AB was returning to a huge house after the murder. Around 4000 square feet IIRC (not including the basement.) ILC had stated that this house had numerous entrances, so I believe that AB could have easily gotten into the house without anyone knowing. If her clothes did contain blood evidence, it's not impossible that she could get to her bedroom or even the laundry room sight unseen by the three adults who were home at the time.

EXACTLY what I was thinking.

Also add to that the info that was given by ilc that no one knew Elizabeth was up at the house. So pretty much no one in the house of three four five ten however many adults were there knew where a six year old and a 15 year old were for upwards of possibly several hours, much less the fact that the nine year old neighbor was there the whole damn time!

 

[not_my_kids]

Did they ever release a true cause of death, or just the means?

I know stabbing, slitting and strangling. But all of these can actually cause death in a lot of different ways.

 

[hellinor]

I have been following this thread for awhile and not to judge KB, but where was she when 14yo MB was running around with an 18 yo CB thus becoming pregnant and giving birth to Alyssa at 15? What mother allows a 14 yo girl to "date" an 18 yo man? In my opinion, it would appear she doesn't have the best track record as far as monitoring her own children.

EXACTLY... no offense to KB, but she did raise MB, so how much help would she have given to AB? That's often the case, when a parent becomes a "screw-up" the child is placed with the grand parents, but they raised that "screw-up" too, didn't they?

 

[Csquare]

Oh, I agree. Don't get me wrong. But even in these high profile cases, they seem to do little to help the officers prep for the court room. That has always bothered me a little. Most cops aren't comfortable in a courtroom, and it would be nice if they could have a little support ahead of time.

Wasn't bashing the officer, just the way things are handled in general.

Blame the Juvenile attorney. She is not very bright. IMHO

 

[not_my_kids]

Parents don't always have much say over their teens.

When I was 15, I moved out, started a relationship with a 20 year old man and laughed at my mother. The cops wouldn't make me go home and there was really nothing she could do. If she tried to walk in and grab me, it was trespassing and unlawful entry...

Different situation, but sometimes parents don't have the amount of say we think they should.

 

[danni]

Blame the Juvenile attorney. She is not very bright. IMHO

Is she at least a pretty color? :waitasec:

 

[Prof]

I absolutely blame her parents and if I were her defense atty I would put them and the GPs on trial.

Thank you, Paximus
IMO There are many adults surrounding AB that I question, including those who were paid to treat her, teach her, take care of her

Yeah, some of the blame goes to the "parents" -- IMO they were deemed "unfit" a long time ago by courts in CA and by the courts in MO almost 5 years ago

From what I have seen, I am of the opinion that the bio parents were never involved -- AB's mom has had children with two different absent fathers (Fact -) AB's mother gave birth to AB when she was AB's age (Fact), so then IMO the blame involves multiple generations --

IMO this case is a modern tragedy -- at 15 AB's mother brought a child into the world, and at 15 AB took a child from this world

 

[vjlaw]

EXACTLY... no offense to KB, but she did raise MB, so how much help would she have given to AB? That's often the case, when a parent becomes a "screw-up" the child is placed with the grand parents, but they raised that "screw-up" too, didn't they?

Do we know MB wasn't living with or visiting her bio-dad when she "screwed" up?