MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #12

[Csquare]

Is she at least a pretty color? :waitasec:

IMO Heck no. Just to clearify I have told her she is not a good attorney.

 

[tlcya]

Thank you, Paximus

From what I have seen, I am of the opinion that the bio parents were never involved -- AB's mom has had children with two different absent fathers (Fact -) AB's mother gave birth to AB when she was AB's age (Fact), so then IMO the blame involves multiple generations --

IMO this case is a modern tragedy -- at 15 AB's mother brought a child into the world, and at 15 AB took a child from this world

Respectfully BBM and snipped for brevity

Good morning Prof That is some sad/sick symetry. Yes it is a tragedy, but it didn't have to be. Lots of mothers were teen mothers (a sign of the changing times) including myself. I did not have a perfect childhood, some of it was sad and ugly. That said, I have been, for the most part a very mature responsible mother, despite the odds against it. Life is choices, looks like a lot of bad choices have been made for a very long time in this little family

 

[Csquare]

Mr Escobar....Can you enlighten us on what details of the case NEEDS to be revealed at a certifacatoin hearing? Can testimony from this hearing be used in the trial? Can this decision be appealed? TIA

 

[Dal Gal]

IMO Heck no. Just to clearify I have told her she is not a good attorney.

Now that's funny, right there :laugh:

 

[MomofBoys]

I find it easy to believe that AB went in with one, perhaps inadequate knife. We don't know what actually caused Eizabeth's death. If her knife was too short, too dull, too whatever, it'd stand to reason she'd have to attempt to kill her in multiple ways, as we saw here. Not to be too graphic, but if she tried to cut her throat and found it wasn't cutting deep enough or she didn't have the strength, she could have resulted to short stabs and then strangling her when she was somewhat incapacitated. It takes a lot of strength to strange someone if you don't know the most effective way, and I've always felt that maybe Elizabeth was weakened by the knife (however it was used) but that the death was very slow in coming and that's why strangulation came into play.

 

[mia g]

Been reading and catching up.

Yes many "country kids" have played with electric fences, I could fill a whole post with names of kids I know that have done it and bribed others to do it and then laughes hysterically. Like others have said none that I know killed anyone. Kids are mean.


Just a small unimportant point, the necklace that JM was wearing in the interview was a cursive letter "J" not a cross. It can be seen in the longer interview, in better detail.


I know from experience sometimes the medical examiner list several causes of death on a DC. Even extenuating circumstances can/will be listed. IE If someone was shot in the lower back and paralyzed, and left in sub zero climate, causes of death could be listed as gun shot AND hypotherma... That being said the strangulation AND the cutting/stabbing contributed to the death of Elizabeth, and if I were betting I would bet ALL are listed on her DC.

Also working in corrections I have seen inmates do major damage, yes even causing death with very small odd objects. I am not SURE, but would think it wouldnt be hard to find online how to kill someone. I just do not have the stomach to look it up. Oh and yes a few of those inmates were very small petite girls. GIRLS can be some of the meanest cruelest creatures on earth. Dealing with men inmates were much easier. The men just beat the crap out of each other, women go for the maim, in my experience.

 

[PAXIMUS]

From an article that was out before Allyssa's name was released (and before more details came out )

http://news.aol.com/article/missing-missouri-girl-elizabeth-olten/734132

"Police would not say Saturday whether there had been a confession, nor would they describe the teen's demeanor or offer more details about written documents that led them to the suspect"

The emphasis on "written documents" is my own

The "case" against Allyssa is clearly stated here, again with an emphasis on premeditation :

Blessed with a Friday off school, 15-year-old Alyssa Bustamante dug two holes in the ground to be used as a grave, authorities said. For the next week, she attended classes, all the while plotting the right time for a murder, they said.

That time arrived the evening of Oct. 21, when Bustamante strangled 9-year-old neighbor Elizabeth Olten without provocation, cut the girl's throat and stabbed her, prosecutors said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34016501/

This is the stuff they are releasing...it is reasonable to assume that the prosectuion is not putting all of their evidence out there for our reading pleasure...they have a case to build and a prosecution to run

Something led them to Allyssa pretty quickly...and whatever it was apparently resulted in a confession, and she led them to the well concealed grave

the words "written documents" may be the smoking gun here....a dairy or journal of the "plan" and/ or writing about it afterwards?? "Plotting"?? was she plotting this in a journal, etc? the "written documents"?

IF there was indication of other kids, a boy involved...IF there was some indication whatsoever that this was a "jackazz" stunt gone bad or a coverup of an accident, I don't think we would see the charges that we are seeing

the prosecution seems to be focused on this as a premeditated murder
and they were firm about getting the maximum (adult) charges for this...which leads me to concur this is one dangerous person, and hopefully justice will prevail

my feelings are for Elizabeth and her family

IMO you trust the state too much, prosecutions are generally politically driven, DAs are elected officials and they commonly trump up charges to keep the community happy and off their backs. What they are alleging happened MAY have happened or it may not have, until we see the actual evidence we cannot know.

 

[Csquare]

Been reading and catching up.

Yes many "country kids" have played with electric fences, I could fill a whole post with names of kids I know that have done it and bribed others to do it and then laughes hysterically. Like others have said none that I know killed anyone. Kids are mean.


Just a small unimportant point, the necklace that JM was wearing in the interview was a cursive letter "J" not a cross. It can be seen in the longer interview, in better detail.


I know from experience sometimes the medical examiner list several causes of death on a DC. Even extenuating circumstances can/will be listed. IE If someone was shot in the lower back and paralyzed, and left in sub zero climate, causes of death could be listed as gun shot AND hypotherma... That being said the strangulation AND the cutting/stabbing contributed to the death of Elizabeth, and if I were betting I would bet ALL are listed on her DC.

Also working in corrections I have seen inmates do major damage, yes even causing death with very small odd objects. I am not SURE, but would think it wouldnt be hard to find online how to kill someone. I just do not have the stomach to look it up. Oh and yes a few of those inmates were very small petite girls. GIRLS can be some of the meanest cruelest creatures on earth. Dealing with men inmates were much easier. The men just beat the crap out of each other, women go for the maim, in my experience.

I agree with your statement about dealng with women inmates. In my time as a co no one I worked with wanted to deal with female inmates. Like you said Men fight and it's over. Hell hath no furry like a woman scorned.

 

[JLMcKenna83]

I wonder how much validity that this has regarding the written evidence??

Jennifer Meyer also told reporters that the "note" that led police to Alyssa could have been written by the alleged killer of Elizabeth Olten herself. While she doesn't know for sure who actually wrote the note given to the police, Meyer heard rumors that Alyssa Bustamante wrote a note during class that was taken away by a teacher. The rumor is that the note written by Alyssa is the "anonymous note" that lead the police to Elizabeth Olten's body

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2433534/elizabeth_olten_case_alyssa_bustamante.html

..I know it is just a rumor at this point.. but.. still something to be considered..

 

[LogicalMinds]

IMO you trust the state too much, prosecutions are generally politically driven, DAs are elected officials and they commonly trump up charges to keep the community happy and off their backs. What they are alleging happened MAY have happened or it may not have, until we see the actual evidence we cannot know.

I don't see how charging a 15 year old girl would be "politically correct"

the boards were full of "sleuthers" looking for RSO's in the area..

politically correct would be to find some man or boy and charge him

I think there is a lot of evidence here...including the fact that the suspect themselves confessed and led investigators to the well concealed grave

 

[MDATCA]

We know AB did not go to school on Thursday but was she in school Friday? Did LE have to go to the school and get her? If she was at school how did they take her out? I would think that there would be videos of them escorting her either from students or the media. I find it curious that no one has gone to the site and taken pics and posted them anywhere. At least that we know of.

IMO there could be many ways AB could have been clean by the time anyone saw her. We don't know how long after the murder it was before AB was around. She could have snuck in and cleaned up. I think that she had done that many times and knew how to sneak in and out. She could have stashed clothing in the barn. There's probably running water there also. I just wonder where the clothing she was wearing is now. She had time between Wed night and Friday morning to do something with it. She may have destroyed them or washed them. LE may have them, we don't know.

I would love to know her demeanor during the walk with LE to show them where the body was hidden. Did she get "excited" when she saw the grave site. I would imagine it would have been the only time she could return to the site as LE was in the area.

 

[Csquare]

We know AB did not go to school on Thursday but was she in school Friday? Did LE have to go to the school and get her? If she was at school how did they take her out? I would think that there would be videos of them escorting her either from students or the media. I find it curious that no one has gone to the site and taken pics and posted them anywhere. At least that we know of.

IMO there could be many ways AB could have been clean by the time anyone saw her. We don't know how long after the murder it was before AB was around. She could have snuck in and cleaned up. I think that she had done that many times and knew how to sneak in and out. She could have stashed clothing in the barn. There's probably running water there also. I just wonder where the clothing she was wearing is now. She had time between Wed night and Friday morning to do something with it. She may have destroyed them or washed them. LE may have them, we don't know.

I would love to know her demeanor during the walk with LE to show them where the body was hidden. Did she get "excited" when she saw the grave site. I would imagine it would have been the only time she could return to the site as LE was in the area.

What ILC said was that they had arranged to meet with her on Fri. IMO they kept her home for that purpose.

 

[AndresEscobar]

Mr Escobar....Can you enlighten us on what details of the case NEEDS to be revealed at a certifacatoin hearing? Can testimony from this hearing be used in the trial? Can this decision be appealed? TIA

I don't usually work with juveniles and fortunately I've never dealt with one in such a horrific case. I also don't practice in Missouri, so I am not familiar with the relevant statutory and case law. I know this decision is appealable in federal court. I believe the decision could be appealed in Missouri court.

The scope of this hearing is whether or not the accused can be certified as an adult. It seems the main factor is the severity of the crime. So, evidence to the severity of the crime is the main scope. Other things that could be brought in would be the maturity of the accused, mental state of the accused, etc.

Testimony from this hearing would be relevant to the case, but I'm sure the DA would rather have whoever testified against AB to testify again in the trial, in front of the jury or judge. That way it would be more credible.

 

[vjlaw]

I wonder how much validity that this has regarding the written evidence??

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2433534/elizabeth_olten_case_alyssa_bustamante.html

..I know it is just a rumor at this point.. but.. still something to be considered..

I thought the school confirmed in the hearing that AB missed school on thurs after the murder. I think that is odd that JM didn't know or realize AB was not in school? So I don't think a note written in school after the murder was possible.

 

[Dal Gal]

What ILC said was that they had arranged to meet with her on Fri. IMO they kept her home for that purpose.

I agree -- An interview with AB was scheduled for Friday at 10am. No sense in sending her to school.

 

[AndresEscobar]

I googled this "I love Cookies" character and I saw that he also posted on a different site. They seemed to laugh that he had moved over the websleuths. So, how reliable would you say this guy is? It appears most of his posts disappeared.

 

[Csquare]

I don't usually work with juveniles and fortunately I've never dealt with one in such a horrific case. I also don't practice in Missouri, so I am not familiar with the relevant statutory and case law. I know this decision is appealable in federal court. I believe the decision could be appealed in Missouri court.

The scope of this hearing is whether or not the accused can be certified as an adult. It seems the main factor is the severity of the crime. So, evidence to the severity of the crime is the main scope. Other things that could be brought in would be the maturity of the accused, mental state of the accused, etc.

Testimony from this hearing would be relevant to the case, but I'm sure the DA would rather have whoever testified against AB to testify again in the trial, in front of the jury or judge. That way it would be more credible.

Thanks. I was wondering if the decision was appealable due to the fact that the defense has not appealed yet.

 

[vjlaw]

I googled this "I love Cookies" character and I saw that he also posted on a different site. They seemed to laugh that he had moved over the websleuths. So, how reliable would you say this guy is? It appears most of his posts disappeared.

Tricia gave his first name. We have some idea who that may be.

 

[Dal Gal]

Could "written evidence" also include cell phone records? According to reports from press conferences by LE:

2:03pm Thursday - Elizabeth's phone records had been requested, but not received.
10:00 am Friday - phone records have been received, and are being reviewed.
Also 10:00 am Friday - LE interview with AB.

http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?list=366949&id=366189

 

[tlcya]

I googled this "I love Cookies" character and I saw that he also posted on a different site. They seemed to laugh that he had moved over the websleuths. So, how reliable would you say this guy is? It appears most of his posts disappeared.

you were not following this case at the time this all went down but ILC presented himself as an insider/local on this case. A lot of his posts were deleted by him as he went. Some of the posts and info were suspicious and impossible to substantiate and ilc stopped posting right after deleting almost all evidence of his presence. I do not know who ilc was but most members took his posts with the proverbial grain of salt.