MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #12

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
That "hatchet" she had on a necklace? could be Jugalette stuff...don't the ICP use the pic of the little guy with the hatchett??

I had not heard of them till reading crime boards/posts...and then did some googling...they sure seem very violent and weird

pretty disgusting

I still wonder how all this squared with her GM's Mormon church, the teen group at church???

I don't think that drugs are going to be a good defense for her at all...since the time she began digging the graves and time of murder are so many days apart

the premeditation seems to also be backed up by whatever "written material" the LE had

I really feel IF LE was looking at the BF they would have him in custody by now, or at least we would see them interviewing him etc..this seems to be a case with a lot of evidence, a pretty clear cut case. LE has not told everything...why should they?? But they seem confident
 
PAXIMUS said:
ICP is a Christian group though, real Juggalos are all about God, of course there are many posers who dont understand the hidden messages about God in ICPs music, I have spent years studying that community.
Click to expand...


Really? are you sure we are talking about the same group?? I think their lyrics are disgusting
 
PAXIMUS said:
ICP is a Christian group though, real Juggalos are all about God, of course there are many posers who dont understand the hidden messages about God in ICPs music, I have spent years studying that community.
Click to expand...

:floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:
Oh my god this is the funniest thing I have read in about two weeks!

Something tells me with lyrics like this

"I'd probably just show up naked like I always do,
and look your mama in the eye and tell her f$$k you!
Hurry up b!#$h I'm hungry, I smell spaghetti,
I'd pinch her lumpy *advertiser censored* and tell her 'get the food ready!'
Your dad would probably start trippin' and get me pissed,
I'd have to walk up and BUST him in his f@%in' LIPS.
It's dinner time, we're hearin' grace from your mother
I'd pull a 40 out and pour some for your little brother.
I'm steady starin' at your sister, I'll tell you this,
you know for only 13 she got some big *advertiser censored*!
After that, your dad would try to jump again,
and only this time I'd put the 40 to his chin.
After your mom does the dishes and the silverware,
I'd dry f@#k her till I nut in my underwear."
By ICP from the song "The Dating Game"

This group is not a Christian group!

Horrorcore, maybe, probably, YES! Cristian group, NO!
 
PAXIMUS said:
Crack is cocaine in smoking form basically, someone who is addicted to crack would more likely just be holed up somewhere waiting for the next score, they dont tend to get really violent. Meth on the other hand you stay up for days even weeks at a time with no sleep, no food, no bathing and usually by day 3 with no sleep you are extremely amped up and beginning to get very paranoid and suspicious of everyone around you, basically nobody is your friend and you have a strong feeling that everyone is plotting against you, you start to come down and get VERY agitated and edgy and will do whatever it takes to get some more in you, at this point voilence is something that you can be triggered in to very easily and you could easily kill someone and not even think twice about it. You are feeling as if bugs are crawling under your skin and every car that drives by your house is someone watching you and about to come take you away. In short it is total madness and insanity. I have never done the crap but I have studied those who do up close and personal for a few writing projects I was involved in.

If there was any drug involved here it would have to be meth IMO, but I see no evidence of drug involvement YET.

To be completely honest the prozac she was reportedly on would be my main concern at this point as it is known and proven to cause increased homicidal and suicidal thoughts in a percentage of teenagers who are on it and according to reports she was on it.
Click to expand...

Hi Paximus - been following this case without commenting. Thought I would respond to your post.

Cocaine is a legal drug (Schedule II). Made in pure crystalline form by several drug companies for hospitals, Hospice, and care centers. Cocaine is used in surgeries, such as eye surgery, and is very effective due to its rapid absorption through the mucus membranes. The use of cocaine in cocktails made for cancer patients enhance the depressed sensorium. It is very effective and legal.

Crack Cocaine is a Schedule I illegal street drug, and as with most street drugs, has many contaminants and adulterants and is very illegal. So in my opinion, cocaine from a drug company vs street made crack cocaine are light years apart.

You are right on about the Prozac - it can and has been found to cause anger, violence, and severe depression in children. Especially young children.

Regarding the Prozac - If she was taking it - I wonder if she stopped it abruptly. It has a terrible withdrawal syndrome and should always be carefully weaned.

ETA: To qualify my answer - I am a clinical pharmacist with decades of experience.
 
PAXIMUS said:
Video SSRI drugs and violence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S-7aNPf33A


If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times, these drugs can be held to account for the increase in mass murder in the past few years.

And, no, not ALL people take SSRI drugs and go out and commit a violent act. And, yes, SSRI drugs help a lot of people. But they are dangerous. And if we are to give them to people, then we need to find the link between violent behavior and these drugs' actions in the brain.
Click to expand...

I have worked in the Mental Health field as a nurse and SSRIs are considered some of the safest as far as physiological side effects (headaches, nausea, vomiting, sleepiness, etc.). The main issue with the SSRIs is the increased risk of suicide, mainly seen in 18 to 24 year olds, within the first 8 weeks of treatment. This is generally accepted to be related to how fast they can bring someone out of a severe depressive episode- Taking someone who would hurt themselves if they were able to but cant because they are soo deeply effected by the depression and bringing them to the point where they are now functional enough to formulate and carry out a suicide attempt.

Having also worked in pediatrics, though, I can attest to the care taken with adolescents by knowledgable pediatricians when they feel that a child needs medication for depression. Very few drugs at all are tested on children by Drug companies. They receive their "Adverse Reactions" information from studies done prior to submission to the FDA. They are required to list EVERY complaint research participants complain of while taking the medication, whether or not researchers think it is actually related to the drug. These get listed in the side effects information that you get from your doctor or your Pharmacist.

The real kicker here is, about half of the REAL side effects and adverse reactions dont come out for at least 2 to 3 years after the drugs are released on the market (Propulsid, Avandia, and Ritalin to name just a few).
That is when you start hearing all of the news reports and seeing all of those annoying lawyer commercials every 5 minutes (If anyone wants Bill Green, I will send him to you state from SC myself :banghead:)

What I am saying is that ALL drugs are potentially dangerous. You can die from ANY medication you take. One can develop psychosis from many different drugs. One can die from something as mundane as apsirin or tylenol.
Its a pro vs. con decision that has to be made based on factual information.

Info on Black Box Warnings:
http://drugs.about.com/od/medicationabcs/a/BlackBoxWarning.htm
 
Csquare said:
There was/is a huge group of Juggaloos and Juggalettes at JCHS. Followers of ICP.,,
That group could be into quite a bit of stuff legal and illegal.
Click to expand...

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with this. Music is music. I understand the lyrics in ICP's music are pretty messed up, but 99.9% of kids, IMO, are NOT impressionable enough to take a lyric to heart so much that it would make them kill someone. I've known plenty of people who listened to ICP when they were first out, when I was a lot younger, and weren't into illegal activities anymore than any other child would be. IMO, how a child/teen behaves links directly back to how they were parented, NOT their musical preferences.
 
bigflaw said:
A word about the rumors... I am willing to bet that if I hit any one of the news articles claiming to be a friend of AB and made something up, it would make the rounds in the rumor mill on all of the sites discussing the case. There may be one or two "anonymous" posts on sites that I have seen that even mention her having a BF. I think this is a big fishing expedition until the trial.
Click to expand...

That is certainly the case.

Look what happened in the Baby Shannon case where the alleged relative had sock puppets all over claiming that the mother had told LE that she had taken the baby into the woods and killed it, among other nonsense. Of course, she wasn't very good at it, but she did it anyway, and was the talk of the net. Even if she was given bad info by the perp, she felt the need to saturate the web with it. She couldn't even keep straight whether she was a relative or not in her posts.
 
PAXIMUS said:
And, no, not ALL people take SSRI drugs and go out and commit a violent act. And, yes, SSRI drugs help a lot of people.
Click to expand...

Respectfully snipped by me....

I have been on SSRIs for the past 5 years and would not be able to be a part of society without. Now, it took me time to find the right one, I've tried 3 others unsuccessfully before Paxil made me a person again, but I can be incredibly moody if I even take it a few hours late. When I had to ween off of Citalopram I couldn't drive I was so dizzy and cried uncontrollably for a week!
They are an interesting type of drug, but I would be in my basement in a ball without them
 
Csquare said:
Doesn't LSD make you trip and become paranoid.
Click to expand...

For me it was like being in a movie, things happened so fast and didn't seem real, and emotions came out of NOWHERE and were uncontrollable, so now that I'm thinking on it maybe.... but LSD isn't around anymore where I am???
 
danni said:
:floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:
Oh my god this is the funniest thing I have read in about two weeks!

Something tells me with lyrics like this

"I'd probably just show up naked like I always do,
and look your mama in the eye and tell her f$$k you!
Hurry up b!#$h I'm hungry, I smell spaghetti,
I'd pinch her lumpy *advertiser censored* and tell her 'get the food ready!'
Your dad would probably start trippin' and get me pissed,
I'd have to walk up and BUST him in his f@%in' LIPS.
It's dinner time, we're hearin' grace from your mother
I'd pull a 40 out and pour some for your little brother.
I'm steady starin' at your sister, I'll tell you this,
you know for only 13 she got some big *advertiser censored*!
After that, your dad would try to jump again,
and only this time I'd put the 40 to his chin.
After your mom does the dishes and the silverware,
I'd dry f@#k her till I nut in my underwear."
By ICP from the song "The Dating Game"

This group is not a Christian group!

Horrorcore, maybe, probably, YES! Cristian group, NO!
Click to expand...

Well regardless of what you may believe ICP revealed themselves in the song THY UNVEILING to be about GOD and that they hid their religious message in their brutal lyrics because it was the only way to reach some people. If you do the research you will see that I am right. I am not an ICP fan and I felt like you did at first but after I did the research I found out I was wrong and their ultimate message is about FINDING GOD. Do the research and see for yourself, read about the SIX JOKERS CARDS and the song THY UNVEILING.
 
hellinor said:
Respectfully snipped by me....

I have been on SSRIs for the past 5 years and would not be able to be a part of society without. Now, it took me time to find the right one, I've tried 3 others unsuccessfully before Paxil made me a person again, but I can be incredibly moody if I even take it a few hours late. When I had to ween off of Citalopram I couldn't drive I was so dizzy and cried uncontrollably for a week!
They are an interesting type of drug, but I would be in my basement in a ball without them
Click to expand...

Thanks...

everyone is so concened that Allyssa gets "help"...well she was getting help
what would people want them to give her?? she was disturbed, yes, so what should they have done??

I think a lot of the "turns people into a killer, makes them commit suicide" stuff is ridiculous...you are dealing some people who have already tried to commit suicide...or have other behavior/anger problems

this "group" of people will have a higher rate of suicide/violence to begin with..that is why they are in mental hospitals during "breakdowns", and why they are in "therapy" and why they are on anti-depressants, anti-psychotics

the drugs apparently work for many many people and allow them to live productive and satisfying lives
 
PAXIMUS said:
Well regardless of what you may believe ICP revealed themselves in the song THY UNVEILING to be about GOD and that they hid their religious message in their brutal lyrics because it was the only way to reach some people. If you do the research you will see that I am right. I am not an ICP fan and I felt like you did at first but after I did the research I found out I was wrong and their ultimate message is about FINDING GOD. Do the research and see for yourself, read about the SIX JOKERS CARDS and the song THY UNVEILING.
Click to expand...

Yes..with lovely tee shirts that say "If it's dead it's not rape"...and other junk

ugh...what an ugly bunch of freaks and losers...google these "clowns" and see what they are up to...just lovely..NOT
 
hellinor said:
For me it was like being in a movie, things happened so fast and didn't seem real, and emotions came out of NOWHERE and were uncontrollable, so now that I'm thinking on it maybe.... but LSD isn't around anymore where I am???
Click to expand...

Psilocybin is the "new LSD". You don't have to be a chemist to grow mushrooms. :) Timothy Leary days are behind us I'm afraid. But then again, where there is a will, there is a way. I'm sure if you tried hard enough you could find it.
 
LogicalMinds said:
Yes..with lovely tee shirts that say "If it's dead it's not rape"...and other junk

ugh...what an ugly bunch of freaks and losers...google these "clowns" and see what they are up to...just lovely..NOT
Click to expand...

From a completely objective standpoint, that IS true. Sorry, I found that amusing in a disturbing kind of way.
 
LogicalMinds said:
Yes..with lovely tee shirts that say "If it's dead it's not rape"...and other junk

ugh...what an ugly bunch of freaks and losers...google these "clowns" and see what they are up to...just lovely..NOT
Click to expand...

I am not defending ICP I am just stating the facts, I spent years studying them because they disturbed me also and I found out that they have a hidden message in all their lyrics and it is about finding god and rejecting evil, you just have not done the research so you are only seeing what is on the SURFACE and that is OK but I encourage those who want the truth to do some research and not just listen to what others say including ME, read for yourself ICP says they are about FINDING GOD and their lyrics when UNDERSTOOD IN PROPER CONTEXT, support this claim. They may be lying or whatever but the lyrics when understood and studied properly do support this claim. Also ICP was under contract with DISNEY for a time and DISNEY was fully aware of this hidden message of ICP.
 
LogicalMinds said:
That "hatchet" she had on a necklace? could be Jugalette stuff...don't the ICP use the pic of the little guy with the hatchett??

I had not heard of them till reading crime boards/posts...and then did some googling...they sure seem very violent and weird

pretty disgusting

I still wonder how all this squared with her GM's Mormon church, the teen group at church???

I don't think that drugs are going to be a good defense for her at all...since the time she began digging the graves and time of murder are so many days apart

the premeditation seems to also be backed up by whatever "written material" the LE had

I really feel IF LE was looking at the BF they would have him in custody by now, or at least we would see them interviewing him etc..this seems to be a case with a lot of evidence, a pretty clear cut case. LE has not told everything...why should they?? But they seem confident
Click to expand...

We determined earlier it wasn't a hachet necklace but a letter "J" i believe. (ETA I'm wrong about this. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned something about a "letter necklace" but, in the Halloween photo, she is wearing a hatchet necklace). Do we know for a fact the GM was mormon?

I would agree with you about the written material, and I would go farther to say that the "written material" is probably the basis for premeditation, with the digging of the graves more indicative of premeditation in light of the writing.
 
eyes4crime said:
Hi Paximus - been following this case without commenting. Thought I would respond to your post.

Cocaine is a legal drug (Schedule II). Made in pure crystalline form by several drug companies for hospitals, Hospice, and care centers. Cocaine is used in surgeries, such as eye surgery, and is very effective due to its rapid absorption through the mucus membranes. The use of cocaine in cocktails made for cancer patients enhance the depressed sensorium. It is very effective and legal.

Crack Cocaine is a Schedule I illegal street drug, and as with most street drugs, has many contaminants and adulterants and is very illegal. So in my opinion, cocaine from a drug company vs street made crack cocaine are light years apart.

You are right on about the Prozac - it can and has been found to cause anger, violence, and severe depression in children. Especially young children.

Regarding the Prozac - If she was taking it - I wonder if she stopped it abruptly. It has a terrible withdrawal syndrome and should always be carefully weaned.

ETA: To qualify my answer - I am a clinical pharmacist with decades of experience.
Click to expand...

I very much appreciate your expert opinion. Thank you.
 
AndresEscobar said:
We determined earlier it wasn't a hachet necklace but a letter "J" i believe. Do we know for a fact the GM was mormon?

I would agree with you about the written material, and I would go farther to say that the "written material" is probably the basis for premeditation, with the digging of the graves more indicative of premeditation in light of the writing.
Click to expand...

Are you referring to the pic where AB had her face painted? If so, I zoomed in closely and the necklace IS a hatchet, not a "J".
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is DeKalb County John Doe (2022)?

Members online

... and 68 more.
Total: 1,956 (members: 69, guests: 1,887)

Online statistics

Members online
69
Guests online
1,887
Total visitors
1,956
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
601,801
Messages
18,130,077
Members
231,145
Latest member
alicat3
Back
Top