MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #12

[danni]

Anyone stop to think that maybe the second grave was to bury her clothes and whatnot in?? Otherwise.. wouldn't her bloody clothes be evidence?

Could be, but if it was as simple as that wouldn't they have allowed that information in the adult certification hearing?

 

[LogicalMinds]

Sure let me feel sorry for a 15 year old who admitted to murdering a 9 year old little girl for what appears to be no reason at all, and then when the facts ALL come out I can have ill feelings towards her.

I don't think so,
I hated the thought of a nine year old being lost in the woods,
I hated the thought of someone taking and hurting a nine year old,
I hated the thought that this nine year old may never be seen again alive,
I hated the thought of what her mother must have been going through not knowing where her daughter was at night,
I hated the thought of what her brother was going through wondering where his little sister was and when and if she would ever come home.
These are all things a mother or family should not have to worry about. When I found out SOMEONE had murdered and hid Elizabeth's body ALL of that hate and then some transfered to that person. I then had (still have) compassion for Elizabeth's family and what they are going through. I have nothing but hate for the person who did this to her and caused all the hurt to her family, it just so happens that the person I hate for this is a 15 year old female.

Had this been a child molester that did this I think more people would be singing a different tune when it came to punishment!

So true! I think of that sweet sweet little girl...she loved purple...she loved to dress up her little pets....

and yeah I "hate" that almost 16 year old piece of worthless crap

mentally ill?? then why not have places to lock up freaks like that??

so far all I see is a lot of people trying to wrap their minds around some way to make it all "better" ...to excuse Allyssa, to blame "society" or whatever

maybe there is such a thing as a bad seed...her nasty looking old man is locked up for assault, supposedly assault with a knife

Elizabeth's family seems to be overcome with grief...I hear they moved out of their home in that neighborhood

they seem to be truly grieving....and in today's media driven world we are more used to "grieving parents" who are out selling their videos to news shows, holding press conferences and "signing" book deals, holding fundaraisers (for what?)setting up "foundations" etc....example : Shaynia's dad, Somer's Mom

I agree...if it was an SRO...a man..or even a teenage boy we would see a whole different set of posts here.

well I am not afraid to say that I hope they keep this dangerous nasty loser locked up as long as necessary to protect others...I am ONLY sorry this wasn't sucessful at her various suicide attempts then Elizabeth would be alive

 

[PAXIMUS]

Actually, we don't know much about the facts of the killing and nothing about the circumstances leading up to it. Even events afterwards are sketchy. I think it is a little disturbing that people are so willing to consign this child to the deep knowing so little about the case itself.

Thank you so much for these comments!

I absolutely agree and I got put in time out by the mods for trying to point that out and taking issue with those who wanted to pull the switch and execute her themselves before we even know what really happened. Being tried in the court of public opinion really sucks and I feel really bad for AB, yes what she allegedly did was very wrong and if it turns out she did it she should pay a hefty price for it but if you listen to most people ( and I dont mean people just on this foum, I mean all over ) she has already been convicted and should have been executed yesterday.

In the end I respect everyones opinion and I know everyone essentially means well, it is just hard for me because on top of wanting the victim to get justice I also feel it is very important that we protect the rights of those accused of crimes.

Once I have all the facts then I will make my decision and draw my conclusions about AB, until then she is simply a person who has been accused of a crime and I respect her rights until the state proves its case against her.

 

[not_my_kids]

I still say that those that think a girl is not capable of this or that she should be cut slack for her gender, or that she has to be covering for someone because that's what girls do...read up on Mary Bell.
Some people, including girls, are just wired wrong, like Mary was.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I still say that those that think a girl is not capable of this or that she should be cut slack for her gender, or that she has to be covering for someone because that's what girls do...read up on Mary Bell.
Some people, including girls, are just wired wrong, like Mary was.

Well thats the whole problem we simply do not know the facts of this case and I feel it is irresponsible for us, as adults, to draw conclusions without knowing all the facts.

I understand it is a discussion forum and so I try and keep that in mind as I too enjoy discussing these things.

 

[W8nC]

Actually, we don't know much about the facts of the killing and nothing about the circumstances leading up to it. Even events afterwards are sketchy. I think it is a little disturbing that people are so willing to consign this child to the deep knowing so little about the case itself.

OPINION...........

I think people are willing to believe that Alyssa killed Elizabeth. A Grand Jury is certainly willing to believe it. Local Law Enforcement is willing to believe it as well.

Why? Well, Alyssa SAID she did it. Then she led them to the well-concealed dead body of a strangled 9 yr old with a slashed throat and stab wounds. Pretty good reason.

You're completely correct that we know very little about the killing or the circumstances leading up to it, or events following. We have had to pick and poke through the miniscule amount of information made public, listen carefully to the tone of voice of those who've spoken publicly, examine the looks on their faces. And I can tell you, we're afraid that the reason they've only shown us the tip of this iceberg may be because the rest of it is even more gruesome, or frightening.

St. Martins is a small town. Jefferson City is a small town. We're a rural area with a pretty low crime rate, especially when it comes to murder. Sure, there have been domestic murders, drug deals gone bad, robberies that end in murder, stuff like that over the years, which are bad enough, but up to now, our children have not really been threatened. This one hits hard, right in the gut. DO NOT HARM OUR CHILDREN. Everyone across the country is reacting from that emotional punch to the gut, and on top of that is the shock factor of the "bad guy" being a cute little 15 yr old girl.

EVERYONE isn't willing to consign her to the deep, as you say. Some are, some aren't. Nearly everyone wants to be sure that she isn't returned to society until and unless she's paid a significant price for taking a life, AND rehabilitated to the point that she no longer poses a threat to our children. I expect that'll take a while. Isn't it true that young murderers do often see freedom, and often at an age where they can have a family and a life after prison? If Alyssa is mentally stable enough to be released at age 30 or 35, she can still have a full life. Elizabeth can't.

 

[Jodibug]

I am so far behind that this has probably already been discussed.... but I haven't seen it so I will post it anyway.

Her next court date has changed from Dec 7 to Dec 8th at 10:30 am per Casenet.

Now off to change my vacation request...

 

[not_my_kids]

Well thats the whole problem we simply do not know the facts of this case and I feel it is irresponsible for us, as adults, to draw conclusions without knowing all the facts.

I understand it is a discussion forum and so I try and keep that in mind as I too enjoy discussing these things.

And that's where we differ, you see irresponsibility, I see necessity.
Difference of viewpoints, that's all, it's part of what makes this place so interesting.

 

[LogicalMinds]

We do have the fact that the LE arrested her....and the proscecution has put in enough evidence that a judge feels that Allyssa is such a threat that she should be tried as an adult.

The cops are not out looking for someone else...this is not an open "mystery"

Everything we see from her so called friends is weird..."nice"...but confides that she wants to "kill people"

Sick crazy pictures....sick crazy videos...sadistic...pictures of her with the electric fence..videos of her shoving her brothers off a diving board in a jackazz sort of "stunt"...she could have hurt or killed them right there

I imagine we will see a lot more info when this comes to trial. Fact is that this was "solved" pretty quickly and LE seems to be confident. They have even put out the gruesome facts of HOW poor Elizabeth was killed

 

[danni]

I still say that those that think a girl is not capable of this or that she should be cut slack for her gender, or that she has to be covering for someone because that's what girls do...read up on Mary Bell.
Some people, including girls, are just wired wrong, like Mary was.

Why do we have womans rights if we are not going to hold female CRIMINALS to the same standards that male CRIMINALS are held?

We can't only be equal when it comes to the good in life, ya know with the good comes the bad and if that means you wanna go out and commit crimes then be ready to face the same music that the boys do!

 

[not_my_kids]

I don't feel the same way about the electric fence vid that others do.

Growing up with lots of brothers, I did lots of masochistic things as rites of passage. If we had an electric fence, I would have been out there grabbing it.
And I have never killed anyone. Neither has my fiance, who actually did the electric fence thing as a teen.

Lots of people, IMO, are taking that as a much bigger sign than it actually was.

 

[BeanE]

I still wonder how she managed to get back into her house with dirty/bloody clothes...

Is it known that she didn't remove her clothes before attacking Elizabeth?

I'm sorry if this is known/has been discussed/sleuthed - I haven't been following this case closely - just checking in every few days.

Another question - I saw people saying they think the second grave was for AB's little sister. Two graves is so unusual. My first thought when I read about two graves was that AB initially intended to kill the twin boys. I'd seen the vid of the electric fence so that may have influenced my thinking.

Was AB more hostile toward the little sister than the boys?

TIA and sorry if these things have already been discussed.

BeanE

 

[danni]

Well thats the whole problem we simply do not know the facts of this case and I feel it is irresponsible for us, as adults, to draw conclusions without knowing all the facts.

I understand it is a discussion forum and so I try and keep that in mind as I too enjoy discussing these things.

BBM!
In that case we should only be talking about CLOSED cases here at WS because those are the only cases that we know 100% facts about. RIGHT?

I am off to see how many of those I can find around!

 

[not_my_kids]

BBM!
In that case we should only be talking about CLOSED cases here at WS because those are the only cases that we know 100% facts about. RIGHT?

I am off to see how many of those I can find around!

Even most of those, we don't know ALL the facts.
In fact, I don't think I have ever seen a case where all the details, down to mindset and true reasoning, were fully determined.
MOO.

 

[not_my_kids]

If she went far enough as to plan by digging the graves, it seems reasonable that she would have left herself a change of clothes out there, too. MOO.

 

[LogicalMinds]

I don't think the electric fence video or the swimming pool video etc are so bad on their own...but taken in context they show a pattern of laughing at other's misery or pain

Allyssa looks so evil and "happy" when causing pain
'
her facebook (or myspace?) pics are just...creepy...

her little conservative looking friend (dressed like a 40 year old woman with a cross around her neck) sits there and calmly says that Allyssa confided she wanted to "kill someone"

To me this sort of "thrill kill" is even scarier and worse than others....that have some (twisted) basis in emotions...ie, "jealousy"...kill a cheating lover, kill a hated "rival"..
or revenge : kill someone who "snitched" on you or who did something to you (stole your bike) or whatever....those are more crime of "passion"

but to sit and plot and carry out a murder?? I only wish coward freak ALLYSA had picked on an adult or a kid her own size and gotten a good whipping and still put in jail or mental institution

instead she chose that sweet sweet little girl

 

[Jodibug]

Was there no attorney present during the interview and confession? The grandma just sat there and listened without an attorney for AB?

I'm drawing a blank here. Maybe W8nc will remember for sure.

I think I remember them saying that the Sgt from the Highway Patrol was there, Grandma and possibly her counselor that she had been seeing for the past two years.

I don't remember her having an attorney there, and I don't think she had one yet at that time. It was probably later that night or the next day when Kurt Valentine came to represent her, later replaced by Jan King.

W8nc.... do you remember if testimony revealed an attorney there during Alyssa's questioning?

 

[danni]

Is it known that she didn't remove her clothes before attacking Elizabeth?

I'm sorry if this is known/has been discussed/sleuthed - I haven't been following this case closely - just checking in every few days.

Another question - I saw people saying they think the second grave was for AB's little sister. Two graves is so unusual. My first thought when I read about two graves was that AB initially intended to kill the twin boys. I'd seen the vid of the electric fence so that may have influenced my thinking.

Was AB more hostile toward the little sister than the boys?

TIA and sorry if these things have already been discussed.

BeanE

I posted a link to a video on page 10 of an interview with a friend of Alyssa's. In the interview she does mention that Alyssa would hit on and was abusive to the half sister, I do not remember her mentioning anything about abusive towards the brothers. So I don't know. Doesn't mean it wasn't going on just means that the friend while talking about the subject didn't mention it!

 

[Jodibug]

Was AB more hostile toward the little sister than the boys?

I don't know the answer to that. What I do know (from the hearing) is that Alyssa and the twin boys had lived with the grandparents for several (7-8) years, and the youngest sister only came to live with them 1.5-2 years ago.
That is a fact.

Therefore it is my OPINION.... that the little sister stole attention away from Alyssa.... and Alyssa was very resentful of having to share the spotlight with her.

Change in family dynamics like that is hard for any child. Think of all the blended families you know. Kids don't normally join a household without some major friction involved.

 

[W8nC]

I'm drawing a blank here. Maybe W8nc will remember for sure.

I think I remember them saying that the Sgt from the Highway Patrol was there, Grandma and possibly her counselor that she had been seeing for the past two years.

I don't remember her having an attorney there, and I don't think she had one yet at that time. It was probably later that night or the next day when Kurt Valentine came to represent her, later replaced by Jan King.

W8nc.... do you remember if testimony revealed an attorney there during Alyssa's questioning?

No, sorry. I don't remember them mentioning any attorney being present, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one, or that they said and I missed it.