MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #13

[MDATCA]

So you're saying if AB was dressed in J. Crew or Gap clothing she wouldn't have killed EO?

Didn't Ted Bundy dress in the "right" clothes of his time?

I think AB did dress in that style of clothing when it suited her. As far as the style of dress I don't thikn it is entirely indicative of whether or not someone has mental illness. IMO many kids are dressing the look not living the life the style represents.

 

[Prof]

I have no comments on AB's friend's behavior, as she is an innocent party and a minor

 

[AmandaReckonwith]

Just a reminder of Elizabeth's picture site (and Alyssa)

http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Elizabeth%20Olten/

 

[kkmiami]

So you're saying if AB was dressed in J. Crew or Gap clothing she wouldn't have killed EO?

You did not pay any attention to the remainder of my post. That was a sign she was preoccupied with death. Have you seen the shirts and jewelry she was wearing? Skulls/and a hatchet charm around her neck. Yes I do say the clothing has something to say about her state of mind. But it was the OVERT actions she took like pretend to be stabbing another child/ electrocutnig herself and her brothers. Is that normal behavior as well?

 

[LadyBug99]

Yes, I'm sure that is precisely what the OP meant to imply.

While it's actually difficult to avoid some of the "goth" icons in kids' clothing today, I do agree with kkmiami that the grandparents were negligent in allowing AB unmonitored access to the internet, as well as so much unsupervised time with her siblings and their friends. Given her history of instability, I find it really shocking that she would even have the means and opportunity to film the incidents that made their way to YouTube.

If the granparents supervised her every move then I agree perhaps this could have been prevented. All I'm implying is that her style of clothes, music or time spent on the internet would not have changed outcome IMO.

 

[Prof]

I may be the only one here but I do "blame" the GP's of AB. They allowed her to wear gothic clothing, as well as her brothers. She was allowed unsupervised time with her younger brothers where she put them in harm's way.They did not monitor her online activity (her GM husband is in the computer technology field) so don't say they didn't know how. Sorry I DO blame them. Why wasn't she sent for inpatient care? Obviously they have money for horses, swimming pools,and pool tables. Why not send her to a private boarding school or military school? All these things they could have done.

IMO I would not call AB's attire "goth" and I never really saw anything but typical teenage clothing -- just as I cannot connect choice of music with any danger signs, I cannot connect style of dress -- however that does not say that there were NO danger signs -- there were plenty!

That said, I do hold many adults accountable in this case

Yes, the gm's husband knows about computers; I am not sure how familiar he is with the social networking side, though and let's remember that there was only one bio gp here

Yes, the gm chose to give these children her home and lots of toys, but that is not always enough, obviously

And the only evidence of strict parenting I have seen is the grounding from the cell phone (and I am still curious as to what caused that)


I did not hear of any police reports when AB allegedly disappeared overnight multiple times -- what did she do on those nights? concerts? camping? or something less innocuous?
http://www.ky3.com/news/local/70376722.html

I am sorry, but this girl tried to commit suicide not two years before, and she was allowed to sneak out anywhere?

This girl was in the hospital 10 days! She should not have been allowed many freedoms, much less knives to play with, but she seemed to have more freedom than many 14/15 year olds IMO!

What about all of these rumors about drugs from her "friend" JM? IMO a "strict" and "structured" home would include random drug testing for a child with her history --

Yes, I agree that they did not seem to monitor her online activities, but worse than that, this child attempted suicide in the same year that she was allowed to play sadistically with her brothers with seemingly no supervision

Yes, perhaps the youtube videos are not as disturbing as the films they were modeled after, or each on their own and taken out of context, but the three together even out of the context of the murder would raise the sadistic tendency flag with most, I'd hope -- IMO this child displayed no empathy for those she wanted to get hurt - instead of helping her brother up, she kicked her brother when he was down

If one decides to be legal guardian, one should be in some sense legally responsible for the child IMO -

However, strict or not, I believe there were many adults around this child, and she did plenty of things that are disturbing enough for some call to action

So I do hold the gm to some extent accountable, but I hold many other adults in this case paid to help out children as accountable --

(Frankly, I question why the children around her did not narc on her -- IMO we need to teach our children that is okay to tell on others if there are knives or any threat of hurting involved)

I do not think it is normal for a teen to carry a knife to school or the church youth group, nor is it normal to play stab another child with said fake knife even for a photo, nor is it normal to put a pic up on FB of a fake stabbing of another child with a real knife! IMO this is worse than sexting
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/24/crimesider/entry5761341.shtml

Cook at the trial made the point that AB's "therapy" in the past had to do with suicidal tendencies, not homicial tendencies -- IMO there is a big gap there
http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2009/nov/19/teenager-indicted-in-slaying-of-9-year-old-girl/

From what I have seen this suicidal girl displayed: a lack of empathy; an unclear sense of reality; alleged drug use; public sadism; public globally aggressive thoughts (listing "killing people" as a hobby); and no visible regard toward how others might perceive her or reject her which IMO is a large part of what stops most people from homicide--
I am no expert in mental health but ALL of the above seem indicative to homicidal tendencies --

IMO "daily" counseling should have some scope

 

[kkmiami]

IMO I would not call AB's attire "goth" and I never really saw anything but typical teenage clothing -- just as I cannot connect choice of music with any danger signs, I cannot connect style of dress -- however that does not say that there were NO danger signs -- there were plenty!

That said, I do hold many adults accountable in this case

Yes, the gm's husband knows about computers; I am not sure how familiar he is with the social networking side, though and let's remember that there was only one bio gp here

Yes, the gm chose to give these children her home and lots of toys, but that is not always enough, obviously

And the only evidence of strict parenting I have seen is the grounding from the cell phone (and I am still curious as to what caused that)


I did not hear of any police reports when AB allegedly disappeared overnight multiple times -- what did she do on those nights? concerts? camping? or something less innocuous?
http://www.ky3.com/news/local/70376722.html

I am sorry, but this girl tried to commit suicide not two years before, and she was allowed to sneak out anywhere?

This girl was in the hospital 10 days! She should not have been allowed many freedoms, much less knives to play with, but she seemed to have more freedom than many 14/15 year olds IMO!

What about all of these rumors about drugs from her "friend" JM? IMO a "strict" and "structured" home would include random drug testing for a child with her history --

Yes, I agree that they did not seem to monitor her online activities, but worse than that, this child attempted suicide in the same year that she was allowed to play sadistically with her brothers with seemingly no supervision

Yes, perhaps the youtube videos are not as disturbing as the films they were modeled after, or each on their own and taken out of context, but the three together even out of the context of the murder would raise the sadistic tendency flag with most, I'd hope -- IMO this child displayed no empathy for those she wanted to get hurt - instead of helping her brother up, she kicked her brother when he was down

If one decides to be legal guardian, one should be in some sense legally responsible for the child IMO -

However, strict or not, I believe there were many adults around this child, and she did plenty of things that are disturbing enough for some call to action

So I do hold the gm to some extent accountable, but I hold many other adults in this case paid to help out children as accountable --

(Frankly, I question why the children around her did not narc on her -- IMO we need to teach our children that is okay to tell on others if there are knives or any threat of hurting involved)

I do not think it is normal for a teen to carry a knife to school or the church youth group, nor is it normal to play stab another child with said fake knife even for a photo, nor is it normal to put a pic up on FB of a fake stabbing of another child with a real knife! IMO this is worse than sexting
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/24/crimesider/entry5761341.shtml

Cook at the trial made the point that AB's "therapy" in the past had to do with suicidal tendencies, not homicial tendencies -- IMO there is a big gap there
http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2009/nov/19/teenager-indicted-in-slaying-of-9-year-old-girl/

From what I have seen this suicidal girl displayed: a lack of empathy; an unclear sense of reality; alleged drug use; public sadism; public globally aggressive thoughts (listing "killing people" as a hobby); and no visible regard toward how others might perceive her or reject her which IMO is a large part of what stops most people from homicide--
I am no expert in mental health but ALL of the above seem indicative to homicidal tendencies --

IMO "daily" counseling should have some scope

:dance: EXCELLENT POST. A lot of the newer posters may not remember me but I was really active on these boards during the Haleigh Cummings investigation. So,I hope I didn't come on too strong. I haven't posted here for a while but I have followed this case from the very beginning.

At one point I had ruled out that the BF knew anything about it or had helped her, now I am hearing different stories about that.Also given AB is only about 20 pounds heavier than Elizabeth makes me wonder how she could get her into the grave. Imaging dragging someone your own weight or close to it to another location. I believe it would be very difficult. I had ruled out DN but now I am not so sure.

If I had a child that was suicidal more than once, and had been cutting herself repeatedly, I am sorry she would almost be on 24 hour supervision. I would have monitors in every room and a spyware program/keytrakker on her computer to monitor her online activity. I certainly would not leave her with her younger brothers and younger sister for extended periods of time. This is the first I had heard of her being gone "overnight".. Again that is where the security monitoring devices should have come into play.

 

[gliving]

Hi kkmiami,

I'm curious as to what you are hearing about DN. Is it only blog comments or something more substantial? I'd hate for an innocent minor to be slandered by rumors when it's nothing more than someone's vivid imagination.

I"ve only seen a couple blog comments about him and both were from a source who has been proven wrong in many of their comments. Their source had AB officially charged as a juvenile when just minutes later she was charged as an adult, so I'm not allowing much credibility to the 'source'.

Thanks.


Prof, the sneaking out overnight and going to concerts without permission alarmed me also. Whenever my children spent the night with friends, I always called the parents to make sure what their plans were and if an adult would be present at all times. Especially during the teen years! And the fact that JM didn't narc on AB about the drug parties and abuse of her siblings is very concerning.

 

[LogicalMinds]

My "Problem" with the Grandmother is that 1) cuts clearly visable on Allyssa's arm/s

2) the dangerous stunts she did with her brothers

3) letting a 'depressed" kid around little kids...was she around the tots when GM ran the day care there?? why was she allowed to be alone with her younger siblings and/or their friends??

I have an icky feeling..JMO...that somehow there was a "stick your head in the sand" form of denial going on regarding just how disturbed..and dangerous...Allysa was

again...I mention the Mormon connection because they have been KNOWN to downplay mental conditions...sort of the old "I'm okay, you're okay, we'll all be ok, just don't drink or drink caffeine and let's pray" kind of deal

 

[gliving]

If the GPs had AB moved to a therapeutic group home, the GPs would have to pay the state of Missouri child support.
MOO

 

[human]

If the GPs had AB moved to a therapeutic group home, the GPs would have to pay the state of Missouri child support.
MOO

I don't know the laws in MO, but since they have not adopted AB, I don't believe that they would be financially responsible for AB in that way.

I think the income of the bio parents would be used to determine any costs.

The school district would be the one, I would think, to determine where she would be placed. There are rules about "Least Restrictive Environment" and she was apparently functioning just fine at school. So anyone would have an incredibly impossible time to have her put in an institution.

However, GPS could have privately paid for her to go to a private school of choice that may have a place for a person like what they thought AB was. That would have had to come out of the GP'S pocket. Since GF is not bio, he may have felt that he's not spending money on that. I am only ASSuming that GF had the money. I don't know.

And I am only guessing here, but I would think that a therapist would advise keeping AB at the GP home. She had suffered loss of parents and I would think a therapist would think that a loving, stable home would be the best place.

However, if she has Reactive Attachment Disorder, a group home setting would have been the best placement. We don't know what diagnosis she received, but I'm guessing not that one, for whatever reason.

I think because of her suicide attempt, everyone was walking on eggshells so as not to upset her. They were all scared she would try it again, I'm sure. ANYTHING to keep her happy!

Let's be realistic here. She is an anomaly. It's not that her killing is on anyone's radar screen. It's so rare that who would guess it.

Now maybe more therapists will be on the lookout. However, where I live, I did not see one thing about AB in the paper. So I don't even know how many people even know AB exists in the USA.

 

[gliving]

I'm pretty sure child protective services are the ones who decide where a child will be placed. Plus the courts.

We don't know if MB/CB have relinquished their parental rights. AB could have been a ward of the court with the GP acting as guardians. I do know the state will demand payment from the guardian for a child in foster care, even to garnish wages.

I wasn't thinking of an institution, more a therapeutic group home for troubled youth.

The only part where I differ with you is that a therapist would want to keep AB at home. If younger siblings are at risk, and it sounds like they were from JM, then wouldn't you think it would be best if she was in a more secure setting? Many still attend public schools and do just fine. Others are schooled at the group home.

I worked in group homes while I attended college, so I know a little about it. One girl was from a troubled home and sent to the group home by CPS. Her mom relinquished all parental rights so she wouldn't have to pay the costs. It was heartbreaking for the girl.

http://www.troubledteensguide.com/TeensState/Missouri-Troubled-Teens/index.html

 

[human]

I'm pretty sure child protective services are the ones who decide where a child will be placed. Plus the courts.

We don't know if MB/CB have relinquished their parental rights. AB could have been a ward of the court with the GP acting as guardians. I do know the state will demand payment from the guardian for a child in foster care, even to garnish wages.

I wasn't thinking of an institution, more a therapeutic group home for troubled youth.

The only part where I differ with you is that a therapist would want to keep AB at home. If younger siblings are at risk, and it sounds like they were from JM, then wouldn't you think it would be best if she was in a more secure setting? Many still attend public schools and do just fine. Others are schooled at the group home.

I worked in group homes while I attended college, so I know a little about it. One girl was from a troubled home and sent to the group home by CPS. Her mom relinquished all parental rights so she wouldn't have to pay the costs. It was heartbreaking for the girl.

http://www.troubledteensguide.com/TeensState/Missouri-Troubled-Teens/index.html

A group home is considered an institution. But as I said, I do not know the laws of MO.

That would make sense about CPS. But everyone, including the schools, would have to agree that the GP's home was not a good environment for AB. Believe me, no one is going to spend money if they don't have to.

I can't imagine that MO isn't in financial crisis. Maybe they aren't. But law makers are always looking for ways to save money and Human Services seem to be the biggest one they look at to cut costs.

Where I live, reunification with parents is the primary focus. The state and county wants to do whatever it can to keep kids from costing money. I may sound cynical, but I know from dealing with this very issue with some lawmakers here where I live that they want to cut costs.

Some insurance plans don't even pay for mental health care of minors. As a matter of fact, I think mental health care is a pretty new mandate for insurance companies.

I think the blame falls right on the shoulders of Americans. We are not willing to pay for schools or helping people. The votes in legislatures all over the US show that.

And the privacy laws for parents. It's impossible to share information on kids with anyone. A child can be seeing a therapist, and the school would have no info on the treatment and problems, for example.

And nobody wants to talk about mental health issues. It's a big taboo for people. A lot of shame involved there. It's OK to have practically any disease, but mental health issues. People hide that.

 

[Prof]

I guess I somewhat agree, but AFAIK AB never really had parents -- her mother was still a teen until AB was 4 or 5 years old, her father was charged with three counts of felony assault by the time she was 7 years old, and AFAIK she'd at least been in the custody of the gm since she was 7 or 8, the 2002 at least -- she attempted suicide 5 years later -- It just seems to me that before the hospital sent her "home" the home should have been scrutinized, questions should have been asked -- they cannot simply study the teen in a test tube; they would need a situational analysis -- I think it is fairly rare that a 13 year old attempts suicide, too! At least I hope so! and all I am saying is that she should have been under close supervision, and not the type of supervision that does not know where the heck she is overnight, or that doesn't know that she does drugs, or does not know that she's posting about killing people on the internet, or posting videos of her young brothers on youtube, or does not know she's in the woods with younger neighbor children, or does not grill her after a child goes missing, or does not know that her butt is not in school the day after a child in the neighborhood goes missing! IMO

 

[human]

Several years ago after Easter, three different 7 year old's in one school where I live had been hospitalized for attempting suicide.

I knew of another 6 year old who attempted suicide. She told me she wanted to kill herself instead of her "uncle" killing her. He had been sexually abusing her and it was discovered in a doctor's office. "uncle" told her if she ever told, he would kill her. So at 6 years old, she decided it would be better if she did it herself.

This was maybe 15 years ago so I hope to God the laws are better here now. I asked her why she would want to kill herself since "uncle" was in jail.

Remember, she is 6 YEARS OLD, and yes , I am shouting. She said, "Yes, but only for 1 year. So I thought it would be better if I killed myself than to have him kill me."

I was flabbergasted and directly went and told someone . I have NO SYMPATHY for child sex offenders since that day.

Anyway, I think that there are more attempts by children than we will ever know unless there is a report somewhere on statistics.

 

[human]

I'm pretty sure child protective services are the ones who decide where a child will be placed. Plus the courts.

We don't know if MB/CB have relinquished their parental rights. AB could have been a ward of the court with the GP acting as guardians. I do know the state will demand payment from the guardian for a child in foster care, even to garnish wages.

I wasn't thinking of an institution, more a therapeutic group home for troubled youth.

The only part where I differ with you is that a therapist would want to keep AB at home. If younger siblings are at risk, and it sounds like they were from JM, then wouldn't you think it would be best if she was in a more secure setting? Many still attend public schools and do just fine. Others are schooled at the group home.

I worked in group homes while I attended college, so I know a little about it. One girl was from a troubled home and sent to the group home by CPS. Her mom relinquished all parental rights so she wouldn't have to pay the costs. It was heartbreaking for the girl.

http://www.troubledteensguide.com/TeensState/Missouri-Troubled-Teens/index.html

I did look at some info on here. The schools that I checked out require tuition. I think it's probably the same as here if you want to get a paid place. Lots of agencies have to agree to pay for it. I think it was decided that the GP's could provide adequate care.

I know that a home for troubled children here, where they provide services for children, about 10 years ago cost $3,000 a month. We looked into it for my sister's adopted daughter.

With the other adopted daughter, they did try some different facilities for her. They sent her to a school out of state that after a few weeks said the school wasn't the fit for her. They sent her to a very expensive private facility in state that she did all kinds of things that made her not a fit there. Finally, she ended up in foster care. Aside from a monthly payment, the IRS took all tax refunds for years. She is an adult now, and seems to be doing OK in some ways.

The only way my sister could get help for this daughter was that she threatened to kill them in front of a police officer. Until that time, no one believed my sister that her problems were serious. I won't go into all of the things she did, but she seemed to be like AB in some ways, but not as bad in others. But that was before the internet and cell phones.

One daughter has fetal alcohol syndrome and the other was sexually abused and burned with cigarettes, in case you think my sister and her hubby were bad parents. But there wasn't much help for my sister about 15 years ago. I hope things are beter for adoptive parents nowadays.

 

[kkmiami]

I guess I somewhat agree, but AFAIK AB never really had parents -- her mother was still a teen until AB was 4 or 5 years old, her father was charged with three counts of felony assault by the time she was 7 years old, and AFAIK she'd at least been in the custody of the gm since she was 7 or 8, the 2002 at least -- she attempted suicide 5 years later -- It just seems to me that before the hospital sent her "home" the home should have been scrutinized, questions should have been asked -- they cannot simply study the teen in a test tube; they would need a situational analysis -- I think it is fairly rare that a 13 year old attempts suicide, too! At least I hope so! and all I am saying is that she should have been under close supervision, and not the type of supervision that does not know where the heck she is overnight, or that doesn't know that she does drugs, or does not know that she's posting about killing people on the internet, or posting videos of her young brothers on youtube, or does not know she's in the woods with younger neighbor children, or does not grill her after a child goes missing, or does not know that her butt is not in school the day after a child in the neighborhood goes missing! IMO

Thank you Prof. That is my point. AB is not a "normal" teen. All teens when in the 15 to 16 year old range have hormones raging as it is. I have some experience with that. My son is now 22,but when he turned 16 another person emerged. When he got his car he was suddenly independent. I by accident saw some instant messages that indicated he was "selling" marijuana. My son and I am a former mayor and councilperson in my area. OMG I had always been really easy going with him but I freaked out. I bought a spyware program so I could see his instant messages. I took away his car. He knew I meant business. I had a spy camera installed in his room and in front of our house. I have not had trouble with him since.

 

[kkmiami]

Hi kkmiami,

I'm curious as to what you are hearing about DN. Is it only blog comments or something more substantial? I'd hate for an innocent minor to be slandered by rumors when it's nothing more than someone's vivid imagination.

I"ve only seen a couple blog comments about him and both were from a source who has been proven wrong in many of their comments. Their source had AB officially charged as a juvenile when just minutes later she was charged as an adult, so I'm not allowing much credibility to the 'source'.


Thanks.


Prof, the sneaking out overnight and going to concerts without permission alarmed me also. Whenever my children spent the night with friends, I always called the parents to make sure what their plans were and if an adult would be present at all times. Especially during the teen years! And the fact that JM didn't narc on AB about the drug parties and abuse of her siblings is very concerning.

No I have no more concrete information than anyone else since details on this case are so hush hush as are any comments at all from friends in the town. I find this highly unusual. There is a forum where it appears some young "friends" of AB's seem to be posting and this was mentioned in a post there. So I can't be sure at all.

 

[Prof]

Yes, Human there are reports on statistics -- thank you for the suggestion as I found some interesting stats from the CDC as of 2009;

"Among young adults ages 15 to 24 years old, there are approximately 100-200 attempts for every completed suicide."
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/Suicide-DataSheet-a.pdf

and here in the The Surgeon General's Call To Action To Prevent Suicide, 1999 I found:
"Americans under the age of 25 accounted for 35% of the population, and 15% of all suicide deaths in 1996. The rate among children aged 10-14 was 1.6/100,000, the rate for children aged 15-19 was 9.7 per 100,000, and the rate for young people aged 20-24 was 14.5/100,000." "Although suicide among young children is a rare event, the dramatic increase in the rate among 10-to-14-year-olds underscores the urgent need for intensifying efforts to prevent suicide among persons in this age group. "
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/calltoaction/fact3.htm

From this 2007 report
"In 2004, suicide was the third leading cause of death among youths and young adults aged 10--24 years in the United States, accounting for 4,599 deaths (1,2). During 1990--2003, the combined suicide rate for persons aged 10--24 years declined 28.5%, from 9.48 to 6.78 per 100,000 persons (2). However, from 2003 to 2004, the rate increased by 8.0%, from 6.78 to 7.32 (2), the largest single-year increase during 1990--2004"
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5635a2.htm

Rare, but increasing in rate -- frightening Of course then I headed over to the "youth violence" reports at the CDC

"5,958 young people age 10 to 24 were murdered—an average of 16 each day—in 2006."

I did not find a statistic for the amount of youths murdered by youths

Here are the risk factors for violence in youth --not causes, but risk factors:
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/YV-FactSheet-a.pdf

http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/youthviolence/images/box_4-1.gif

"The dynamics of youth violence are best understood from a developmental perspective, which recognizes that patterns of behavior change over the life course. Adolescence is a time of tumultuous change and vulnerability, which can include an increase in the frequency and means of expression of violence and other risky behaviors. Understanding when and under what circumstances violent behavior typically occurs helps researchers craft interventions that target those critical points in development."

http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/youthviolence/

 

[eyes4crime]

From 'Without Conscience', Dr. Robert Hare:

Laboratory experiments using biomedical recorders have shown that psychopaths lack the physiological responses normally associated with fear.

Hare goes on to say: Body sensations associated with fear and apprehension, such as sweating, dry mouth, pounding heart, muscle tenseness etc. are missing in the psychopaths experience of fear.

Hare's point is that without anxiety, guilt, fear, and apprehension, the psychopath has little aptitude for experiencing emotion and developing a conscience.

And without a conscience they are psychopathic - Hare's research says - perhaps born psychopathic.

Maybe this child would have a very high score on his Pschopathy Check List...

I guess it's always a possibility - certainly would explain her heinous crimes