MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #13

[Jodibug]

I heard back from the court and was told to leave my phone behind.

Honestly, it ticks me off. She is certified an adult and has an attorney (PD). Other inmates do not get this type of "security" and I don't feel like Alyssa should be getting any "special" treatment.

 

[W8nC]

I heard back from the court and was told to leave my phone behind.

Honestly, it ticks me off. She is certified an adult and has an attorney (PD). Other inmates do not get this type of "security" and I don't feel like Alyssa should be getting any "special" treatment.

Jodibug, I think I can come tomorrow, too. When/where will you guys be meeting?

 

[Jodibug]

Jodibug, I think I can come tomorrow, too. When/where will you guys be meeting?

I hope you make it! I am NOT going early this time.... (after camping out in my car all night last time for no reason). I will be there just after 10am. See you guys there!

 

[MDATCA]

I hope you make it! I am NOT going early this time.... (after camping out in my car all night last time for no reason). I will be there just after 10am. See you guys there!

LOL I have done things like that before. It seems only when you don't think that there will be that many there are. Once again even though you didn't need to spend the night in your car I thank you for doing so.

 

[kkmiami]

:sick: I have been the target of sociopaths in my social settings at a country club. My husband and I were very popular there, on the board, committees, etc. for over 10 years, when two people who I invited because I "thought they were nice" turned my life upside down. They literally took over every committee. They became best friends with "our best friends" etc. etc. Believe it or not when I expressed distress at some of the things they were doing, they turned on me and by the time they were finished my entire inner circle of friends turned on me and took their side. They always have that brilliant smile, seem really loving, etc. etc. until someone tries to break their "control". I was the one. Thankfully, some other people experienced a little bit of their wrath with another organization and their true colors were shown a little. Those people tried to get rid of the "sociopaths". I guess you can guess the outcome? Those 6 people were considered rebels and troublemakers and again turned the club against those people. They have that gloating look whever I happen to run into them. My own husband almost turned on me as well. I really thought we may get a divorce over it since this club was so important to him as well as the close friendships we had there. Unless you are the "target" no one believes these people could be anything but wonderful. (Sound like AB's friends?) It really isn't their fault. They have been manipulated and made to depend on AB. These people in my case convinced others that I was "crazy" and depressed. Who would not be depressed when their closest friends abandoned them? Problem is my husband wanted me to go parties there and smile like nothing was wrong. I could not do it.

The odd thing was in my case, these two sociopaths married each other for a double whammy!

Thank goodness I created a whole other circle of friends and social contacts through my involvement in another club where we are again very much welcomed. Our social life is more active than ever and our newer friends are very special.

I hope none of you have to experience it in your lives. It is like bullies in school who grow up and continue the cycle for once a bully, always a bully whether it be in the workplace or a social group. AB seems to fit the classic mold. They are clever liars and natural leaders. Usually very charismatic and can manipulate others, such as AB taunting her brothers to touch the electric fence. Truly dangerous and in AB's case deadly

 

[human]

I'm not sure what is "OT" here because I feel that discussions of understanding the sociopath and psychopath are relevant trying to figure out how AB came to be. IMHO

 

[Kimster]

I'm not sure what is "OT" here because I feel that discussions of understanding the sociopath and psychopath are relevant trying to figure out how AB came to be. IMHO

Hoppy clarified this for me cuz I'm a private forum mod and sometimes I get confused too.

If we discuss AB in the post, it is on topic. If we discuss sociopaths and psychopathic behavior in general, we need to go to the Jury Room. Hope that helps.

ETA: I opened a thread for general discussion: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[W8nC]

Okay, yeah I was wondering what the deal was earlier. We were discussing child rearing, and punishing children, IN GENERAL, and had not specifically related it to AB's upbringing. I guess that's why Hoppy shut us down, right?

 

[Kimster]

Okay, yeah I was wondering what the deal was earlier. We were discussing child rearing, and punishing children, IN GENERAL, and had not specifically related it to AB's upbringing. I guess that's why Hoppy shut us down, right?

Yes. On the public forum, we need to stay on topic as there are many posters and guests coming here for information about the case. That is why we have our private forums for general discussions.

 

[Kateyes]

kkmiami - your post was great - tells all who read it what it is like to try to interact with a sociopath- it will always be on their terms, and under their control - always. And you are so right - anyone who realizes how the sociopath has gained control and tries to put so me balance into the situation quickly becomes the object of their rath. And even while expressing anger toward you, the sociopath has an innate way of making themselves look like the wronged party.

I had a BIL who was a sociopath, and my husband's ex-wfe in my life at different times, and everyday I felt put through the wringer. I do believe this discussion is releveant because AB , IMHO, is certainly a sociopath. The friends who continue to support her so vigorously because AB has not allowed them to see the real AB, IMO.

My biggest frustration with the sociopaths who were in my life is that I looked like the mean nasty Biotch while they were seen as such wonderful people - it is maddening that no one sees them for what they are until personal experience makes it crystal clear.
Sadly, AB's grandparents, noteably her grandmother, should have recognized the sociopathic behavior, IMO. She was either incredibly naive, or looked the other way, or a combination of both.

 

[Kateyes]

I just had an epiphany as to why AB's grandmother seemingly looked the other way, IMO. I know from my experience, and from watching my sister,and my husband trying to deal with sociopathic behavior , that it is easy to get frustrated and to come to the conclusion that nothing you do can improve the situation. Maybe AB's GM did see things, but decided not to "see" what she felt she couldn't change. JMO

 

[W8nC]

kkmiami - your post was great - tells all who read it what it is like to try to interact with a sociopath- it will always be on their terms, and under their control - always. And you are so right - anyone who realizes how the sociopath has gained control and tries to put so me balance into the situation quickly becomes the object of their rath. And even while expressing anger toward you, the sociopath has an innate way of making themselves look like the wronged party.

I had a BIL who was a sociopath, and my husband's ex-wfe in my life at different times, and everyday I felt put through the wringer. I do believe this discussion is releveant because AB , IMHO, is certainly a sociopath. The friends who continue to support her so vigorously because AB has not allowed them to see the real AB, IMO.

My biggest frustration with the sociopaths who were in my life is that I looked like the mean nasty Biotch while they were seen as such wonderful people - it is maddening that no one sees them for what they are until personal experience makes it crystal clear.
Sadly, AB's grandparents, noteably her grandmother, should have recognized the sociopathic behavior, IMO. She was either incredibly naive, or looked the other way, or a combination of both.

Do we know grandma's background? We know she ran a day care, but had she done anything else in her life, as a job/career, was she educated? What I'm getting at is, would she necessarily have recognized sociopathic behavior? Or would she maybe have been like Elley Mae's mother....

I agree with your last sentence, "didn't want to see" I have seen this first hand with younger sister, my mother would never admit that she was a loser, and user. She would talk like she was the shining star and her life was just perfect and anything that went wrong was not her fault. I feel that most ppl can't accept that a "blood" relative is capable of things that would shine a bad light on the "family".

Remember, AB was born to grandma's oldest child, MB, when she was only 15. Grandma had custody of her by the time she was what, 7 or thereabouts? So grandma was, no doubt, very involved in AB's life from the beginning, right? AB may have been just about like another daughter to her, IMO.

I'm a grandma, and had custody of one of my grand daughters for a year. Luckily, her parents got their act together and are now doing a good job raising her. That's been about 8 years ago, but I am still way closer to her than I am to my other grandkids. We developed a special bond in that year together.

AB's grandma may have been too close to see all her flaws, may only be guilty of loving her too much to believe she could be that seriously messed up. Or maybe it WAS the Mormon influence, that she wasn't willing to admit it was a problem too big for prayer and family to solve....just a theory.

 

[AndresEscobar]

I am very anxoius as to what the hearing tomorrow will cover. I hope we get something from it. I keep going back and forth that it is going to be a huge nothing to thinking something big could be revealed.

I wish I was local to the area so I could attend and show support for Elizabeth and her family. Thank you to all you JC WSer's who are going and reporting the info to us. Your efforts are very much appreciated.

Basically, tomorrow you'll find out the course the defense will take based on their pleading. So, lots of stuff for discussion here.

 

[AndresEscobar]

I heard back from the court and was told to leave my phone behind.

Honestly, it ticks me off. She is certified an adult and has an attorney (PD). Other inmates do not get this type of "security" and I don't feel like Alyssa should be getting any "special" treatment.

Ultimately, it's the judges decision. It probably has something to do with the high publicity of the case more than any "special" treatment for AB.

 

[Prof]

Basically, tomorrow you'll find out the course the defense will take based on their pleading. So, lots of stuff for discussion here.

And I personally hope you will help with this "stuff"
How many different ways could they plead?

I am also wondering why there is no record of a ruling on the motion for immediate hospitalization?

 

[impianoteach]

We obviously have a difference of opinion and different levels of compassion when it comes to the desire to rehabilitate over incarcerate and that is ok, I am trying not to turn this in to a flame fest but just for your information she may NOT be put away the rest of her life:

See: Graham v. Florida and Sullivan v. Florida these cases are currently before the Supreme Court and deal with whether its in violation of the 8th amendment for someone under the age of 18 can be sentenced to LWOP.

That being the case I prefer people like AB, as young as they are, get rehabilitated instead of locked up and forgotten, thats just who I am and I tend to have compassion for people like her and do not get any pleasure at the thought of locking her up and throwing away the key.

TY AE.

I haven't read ahead so if this has already been discussed, my apologies. I hate to argue with a lawyer but I do believe the aforemention Supreme Court Case only involves crimes that do not include murder.

 

[JLMcKenna83]

I haven't read ahead so if this has already been discussed, my apologies. I hate to argue with a lawyer but I do believe the aforemention Supreme Court Case only involves crimes that do not include murder.

We've beat this to death... it is ONLY NON-LETHAL crimes. We've had several other lawyers explain it to us that way... Good observation!

 

[MDATCA]

This morning is going by slow Trying to be patient.

 

[Jodibug]

This morning is going by slow Trying to be patient.

Yeah, I'm ready. I have my purse all cleaned out (it needed that!) I have to leave my phone, camera and IPod at work (it also has a camera). I've got my notebook to take notes, and my pink ribbons to show support for Elizabeth.

I am actually all caught up at work.... for the moment.... hopefully it will stay that way until I leave and won't be too bad when I get back.

 

[droptoplesabre]

Yeah, I'm ready. I have my purse all cleaned out (it needed that!) I have to leave my phone, camera and IPod at work (it also has a camera). I've got my notebook to take notes, and my pink ribbons to show support for Elizabeth.

I am actually all caught up at work.... for the moment.... hopefully it will stay that way until I leave and won't be too bad when I get back.

if your luck is anything like mine, you'll come back and be swamped!!!!!! :whipper: