MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[sleepface11]

Michael Hernandez made no secret of his fascination with death, gore, mutilation...and told kids about his desire to kill..

he was popular and outgoing....with a career goal...."serial killer"...and he killed his little friend simply because he could, wanted to see what it "felt like"

~~~

As for Allyssa and Elizabeth....I have not heard that she was "jealous" of her or anything....just that she wanted to see what it "felt like" to kill someone

Like Michael she may have picked a smaller, weaker victim....easier that way

Also..there is nothing to say that poor Elizabeth had such a stable upbringing...after all her own dad was doing time in prison just like Allyssa's (no, I am not saying that to put down poor Elizabeth, it certainly wasn't her fault)

I do feel that Allyssa had no real "reason" other than her own twisted mind/sociopath mind and heart to do this

Yes, and Mary Bell also killed for the same reason as AB, and was later released. There may have been no real reason behind her actions, but i do think she had some deep problems..either way she is in for life i bet.

 

[Bibliophile]

Hi all --

I've been doing some reading and researching and I've found some very troubling info on stuff we've touched on in the past. Because of the amount of info, I will post it in several different posts. Its all sort of "background" on how this relates to AB and Elizabeth's murder.

Some of the Facebook and other pics of AB have always been troubling to me - particularly the one where she has the clown-like makeup and the index finger pointed to her temple. And then the necklace that she wore ... I started digging and found some disturbing trends.

As mentioned in an early thread, there is a type of music called "horror core." Its a sub-genre of hip-hop that enjoys a lot of popularity with some teens. Its music described as "horror" - but I personally don't find that appropriately descriptive. I think of "horror" as a scary book or movie. This music goes beyond that.

Currently, the most popular horrorcore band is a duo called Insane Clown Posse. Followers or fans of the band Insane Clown Posse (ICP) are called Juggalos (males) and Juggalettes (females).

There have been several journalists across the nation who have done investigative pieces on the relationship of ICP to teen and young adult violent crime. However, just as I found one article, it would become dated by more cases to add to the total.

Many of these cases also have some sort of connection to a MySpace or Facebook page. Of course, most teens have a presence on one or the other, but it may be of note that the fans of ICP use it to demonstrate their loyalty and ideas or communicate w/ others who are like-minded.

Now before you jump to conclusions, I don't have virgin ears. I've raised three teenagers and after hearing some of their disgusting "rap" threatened to take away their stereos until their 35th birthday. However - ICP is something apart and waaay different than anything my teens wanted to listen to, as bad as I thought that was.

I am not suggesting that ICP caused any murders --- but I do think it is probable that for a vulnerable group, too much exposure to ICP could send a marginal kid over the edge.

Details to follow --

 

[Bibliophile]

Here begins a sampling. You can do a websearch for more information on these cases.

In February 2006, Jacob Robida, of New Bedford, Mass., a self-described “Juggalo,” attacked patrons at a Massachusetts gay bar, murdered a police officer, shot a female companion, and ultimately shot and killed himself after fleeing to Arkansas. According to Wikipedia, “Robida maintained a MySpace.com profile … which showed his main interests to be Nazism and the rap group Insane Clown Posse. He called himself a Juggalo, a term coined by Insane Clown Posse to mean “a follower of the Dark Carnival,” and made many references to the Juggalo subculture on his page.”

Cop Killer Jacob D. Robida Dies ---- Springfield, MO - Jacob D. Robida, 18 , who gained his 15 minutes of fame by attacking people in a nightclub with a firearm and hatchet and subsequently killing an Arkansas police officer, died today in a Springfield, Missouri hospital.
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/02/05/robida/index.html

On Feb. 28, 2007, police in Lafayette, Col., found the body of Linda Damm, 52, in the back of her Subaru in the garage of her home in that town. Damm had been stabbed 18 times, and police later arrested her daughter, Tess Damm, then 15, and her boyfriend, Bryan Grove, 17, and two of their friends in connection with the homicide. Both Tess Damm and her boyfriend identified themselves as Juggalos, (Daily Camera of Boulder, Col). Tess Damm later pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 23 years in prison, according to the Camera. Grove also pleaded guilty and got 40 years.

Hazleton, PA - four young men who identified themselves as Juggalos were charged with beating another Juggalo to death, the Standard Speaker newspaper reports.

Curtis Foose, 25, Jeffrey Gombert, 19, and Andrew Tutko, 19, all of Hazleton, and Shane Roof, 21, of Palmerton, Pa., all are charged in the murder of Anthony Locascio, 21, who was bludgeoned to death in a wooded area. All five were fans of Insane Clown Posse according to their Myspace.

Farmville, VA - Emma Niederbrock, 16, was slain along with her mother, university professor Debra Kelley, 53, her father, Presbyterian minister Mark Niederbrock, 50, and her friend, Melanie Wells, 18, of Inwood, W.Va. They were found bludgeoned to death in Kelley and Emma Niederbrock's home Sept. 18. Richard “Sam” McCroskey, 20, of Castro Valley, Calif., has been charged in Mark Niederbrock's death, and authorities expect to charge him in the other murders. McCroskey had recorded songs, and posted them online, under the name Syko Sam, in which he bragged about the thrill of killing.
http://www.examiner.com/x-25759-Richmond-Evangelical-Examiner~y2009m11d17-Violence-of-a-new-occult

Defense to Seek Venue Change in Farmville Slayings - "...
McCroskey had visited after meeting Emma Niederbrock online. He and Emma Niederbrock and Wells shared an interest in "horrorcore" music. Authorities have said they believe each victim was attacked with a ball-peen hammer and a wood-splitting maul."
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/crime/article/FARM16_20100115-220805/317971/

"Two men were arrested Tuesday by Salt Lake County sheriff's deputies after investigators say they attacked a teenager with a medieval battle ax. The key to catching the men was their apparent affiliation with Juggalos. The men, both 21, were booked into the Salt Lake County Jail for investigation of aggravated assault. The two were at the home of a 17-year-old Kearns boy at about 4:30 a.m.
One of the men was jealous of the victim text messaging a girl, according to jail documents. He also believed he contracted a sexually transmitted disease from the girl, which she in turn got from the victim, jail documents state. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700247105,00.html

And a recent adult example -

"“What I did was against my moral nature,” Ek said during the court proceeding. “I will never know whether I intended to destroy the screen of the DVD player to silence that awful deep and demonic rhythm of the [music] when the horrible event went down.”
http://www.scindependent.com/articles/2010/01/14/local/doc4b4f59c31db1a286654743.txt

 

[Bibliophile]

After my reading and research, I will agree with FBI's Trombitas when he said ICPs music is "a sign, it’s a reinforcer, it’s an accelerant.”

Horrorcore’ music fans linked to violence
(mentions of various murders committed by young people) " Montgomery County prosecutors approved aggravated murder charges on Oct. 21 against self-described horrorcore fan Cody Wayne Henderson, 19, of Madison Twp., in the early-morning stabbing death of his stepfather, Charles S. Zan II of Miamisburg. Zan, a 45-year-old state prison guard, was stabbed more than 40 times in his bed . On Myspace, Henderson calls himself a “Juggalo 4 life,” and his former girlfriend describes herself as a “Juggalette.” Juggalos are fans of one of horrorcore’s leading band, Detroit’s Insane Clown Posse.... Scientific studies have had mixed findings on whether listening to violent music leads to violent behavior. But “individuals who are on the pathway to violence often surround themselves with violent music and literature,” said Special Agent Harry Trombitas of the FBI’s Columbus office. “These (musical) groups themselves are not causative, but they’re often enhancers.” To listen to the lyrics of the Insane Clown Posse is to wallow in a foul pit of murder, misogyny and necrophilia, to play the role of Dresden in an attack of F-bombs."
http://www.middletownjournal.com/news/crime/horrorcore-music-fans-linked-to-violence-378737.html

Pocono Record Writer
April 25, 2009

"When they came under, I was sitting in the dark cover,
he sat next to me and I went and stabbed this mother(expletive),
right into his neck and I stabbed him in the head,
we checked but he started running, his (expletive) *advertiser censored* wasn't dead."

STROUDSBURG — These lines from an accused killer's poem were read aloud by a state police investigator in court Friday as murder victim Michael Goucher's family and friends, filling the courtroom, sat listening in horrified silence. Many wore buttons showing a picture of Goucher in his U.S. Army uniform.

Goucher was reported missing after being last seen Feb. 3. He was found dead Feb. 11 in a wooded area near Stoney Run Lane, where his car was parked, in Price Township. He had been stabbed multiple times in the head, face, throat, neck and body and covered with snow.

More here - http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090425/NEWS/904250348/-1/LIVING100105

 

[Bibliophile]

" ... One reason parents don't recognize the seriousness of the fascination is that Juggalo gang gear is sold in stores that cater to teens. Items bearing the Hatchetman silhouette — a Juggalo symbol — evil clown T-shirts and posters, ICP CDs or tickets to the Gathering — the Juggalo summer concert in Illinois — may have been purchased for teens by parents. Some of the gang's paraphernalia can be found at Hot Topic, Spencer's Gifts and Rockin' Willy's in the Stroud Mall. Trinkets may seem innocent, but convey membership in a group police consider a gang. Juggalos have been identified locally as drug users, and now two have been accused of murder. Nationally, other murders committed by Juggalos have borne a striking resemblance to the vicious lyrics in ICP music."
http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090527/NEWS/905270324/0/LIVING100105

Juggelo Murder Knife Themes for MySpace, etc. http://www.coolchaser.com/themes/keywords/murder+knife/3

 

[Bibliophile]

Below are some of the lyrics to ICPs songs and information about the band. I will post this with a caveat -

if you are easily upset or are close to the families, you may want to skip this post.
​

In light of what we know occurred, I found the lyrics extremely disturbing.

The "Dark Carnival" is supposedly the whole meaning behind the music of Insane Clown Posse (ICP). The talk about "Picker Forest"
which was an undeveloped plot of land in Oak Park, Michigan, where Joe Bruce (ICP) and his brother hung out while they were kids. This is where Joe believes he first experienced the power of the "Dark Carnival. " Six albums supposedly deliver the message of the "Dark Carnival" and are called "Joker's Cards." Juggalettes and Juggalos are believers in the Dark Carnival and are dedicated to at least one of the Psychopathic Record's artists.

Excerpts of Lyrics -

Just a small sampling, but its enough.

Walk into the Darkness
"walk into the darkness, a place for those who choose to give a f*ck less, wicked dark and heartless."
"I'm going to hell, and I'm knowing it well, and I've got no problem showing it and going to jail."


(note the song "Piggy Pie" talks about "going for the neck" and glorifies being in court and jail.)


In My Room
Sometimes I kiss her and I start shakin,she slips me the tongue and it taste like bacon.
Uh oh somethings wrong baby's upset
She told me she was spotted by the neigbors kid
She cant come back now cause they know our secret
Unless I can make them keep it.
If I do she may come to life now in their yard with a shotgun and knife
Cut the screen
Went in and found the kid
Blew a bowl of spaghetti in the side of his head,the daddy was next runnin down the hall,I shredded his throat and he was
Quick to fall,tossed the mossberg and gripped the knife,started stabin the **** out of his wife,
Went home a bloody mess with a job well done.
Wash up and wait for my baby to come

The doorbell rings I gotta get 'em inside
In my best little girl voice I'm like,
"Hi, come on in! I'm putting on my bikini!"
And when the door shuts, that's when I let them see me
"Hi there"
I stab them in the neck first, cuz it hurts
Hit 'em where the blood squirts
Carve his whole face off, and make him eat it
Chain him up by his foot in the basement bleeding


To Catch a Predator
(chorus #1)
I'm probably gonna to burn for this
Ain't no lesson to learn from this
There's nothing I'ma earn for this
But it sure is fun! I said it sure is fun!

I'm probably gonna to burn for this
Ain't no lesson to learn from this
There's nothing I'ma earn
But it sure is fun! I said its sure is fun!

and if those weren't bad enough -

[Violent J]
Little Miss Muffet, oh, she never had a clue
Of the psychopathic wicked clown is finna do
Creeping through the backyards underneath the moon
Only three blocks away, the joker looney toon

[Violent J]
Listen to the loon, listen to the pain
Listen to the one they call the Violent J Insane
Watch me as I duck and I dash through the night
I can see the shadows of the moon in my butcher knife

[Violent J]
Pretty little world has created this monster
See me living with a dead body in a dumpster
Laughing in your castle but I can't crush your moat
But then I take a boat and cut your f-cking throat


Sleep Walkers
Something happens to me when I’m sleeping in the night
Wake up in my backyard with a shovel and a knife
Filling up a hole again I’ve dug up 32
I know all my dreams of murder probably all are true
I choke ’em (choke ’em)
Kill ’em (kill ’em)
Stab ’em (stab ’em)
Right
Choke ’em (choke ’em)
Kill ’em (kill ’em)
And sleep right through the night
Choke ’em (choke ’em)
Kill ’em (kill ’em)
Stab ’em (stab ’em)
Right
Choke ’em (choke ’em)
Kill ’em (kill ’em)
And sleep right through the night
I walk around my neighborhood in my slippers and my sweats
Snoring loud and mumbling steady squeezin necks


The Thrill of the Kill

I try to tell my therapist and counselor aswell
But they just say Uh huh until the time limit bell
I told a couple homies and they urged me on to it
If I ever had a f-ckin' chance of fightin' this I blew it
...
But when the high comes crashing down where will I be found
I'll be underground (burning away)
And when the high comes crashing down where will I be found
I'll be underground (burning away)
I guess all I'd say is that...
Well why apologize I plead for no forgiveness
I'm goin' straight to hell and I deserve their business
Its useless don't know why I have this illness in me
This killness in me I always knew that to hell they'd send me
Every day was a nightmare only all very real
But nothing compares to enjoyment of the thrill of the kill
(You sick f-ck) Thrill of the kill
(You sick f-ck) Thrill of the kill
(You sick f-ck) Thrill of the kill
(**** you sick f-ck) Thrill of the kill, kill, kill
(You sick f-ck) Thrill of the kill


From Mr. Happy
I whistle, I sing I'll pet your poodle (C'mon)
I'll twist and squeeze your neck like a wet noodle
Cuz I'm so happy I'll stab your *advertiser censored*
and lay down next to you dead in the grass and sing
Oh, it feels so good everytime I murder I get happy

Happy, happy, happy
Its found happy, happy, happy
Its found happy, happy, happiest
I'm happy, happy, happiest
(When I) Murder, murder, murder you
I murder, murder, murder you
I murder, murder, murder you
I murder, murder, murder you

 

[LogicalMinds]

Thanks for that info....there was also the "horror core DJ" who was a murderer...he met a girl online and she went out to see him and he killed her

they were big into that

I do think that Allyssa was a disturbed sociopath...she liked to hurt other people/kids, she liked "gore" and darkness

I have always felt that necklace was a Jugaloo hatchet

that music if you can call it that is very disturbing..google them and see their "festival"....very disturbing IMHO

However I don't think that band "made" her or these other kids/sociopaths do stuff...just that they had that "darkness' in them and were drawn to this

 

[Bibliophile]

However I don't think that band "made" her or these other kids/sociopaths do stuff...just that they had that "darkness' in them and were drawn to this

I agree to an extent. I think all the of the perpetrators mentioned in the previous posts, including Alyssa were some incredibly messed up people who were drawn to this sort of music (if you can call this music). I also agree w/ the FBI that this is an accelerant.

Would they have done the crimes without this music egging them on? I don't think anyone can really answer this question.

I think this music validates their dark thoughts and tendencies. It desensitizes them to murder and makes it cool to kill.

I am against censorship but should this group ever come to my area to perform, you can be assured I would be helping to lead an educational campaign in the media and schools regarding their lyrics, content and message.

 

[LogicalMinds]

I agree to an extent. I think all the of the perpetrators mentioned in the previous posts, including Alyssa were some incredibly messed up people who were drawn to this sort of music (if you can call this music). I also agree w/ the FBI that this is an accelerant.

Would they have done the crimes without this music egging them on? I don't think anyone can really answer this question.

I think this music validates their dark thoughts and tendencies. It desensitizes them to murder and makes it cool to kill.

I am against censorship but should this group ever come to my area to perform, you can be assured I would be helping to lead an educational campaign in the media and schools regarding their lyrics, content and message.

Very true...

I personally think the "real" sociopaths would kill/hurt people without the music...but it may well accelerate or "validate" their dark side? It also brings other emotionally needy kids into their "circle" where they are vulnerable

I am thinking of the gal who began writing to this horrorcore "dj" online...a "fan" of his...he asked her to come out for some festival/concert or whatever and she flew out and he killed her...again for no reason, he "felt like it"

I worry about the "sheep" in the flock of Jugaloos who are exposing themselves to some sick wolves JMO

I really hope all of her classmates and "friends" are in counseling and it would be a good idea if their families knew to be on the lookout for this sort of stuff.

 

[LadyBug99]

snipped...

I think this music validates their dark thoughts and tendencies. It desensitizes them to murder and makes it cool to kill.
.

Do you also feel the same way about rap music, war movies, horror movies and video games?

IMO I don't think any of the things listed above can influence a person to commit murder...including ICP.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Do you also feel the same way about rap music, war movies, horror movies and video games?

IMO I don't think any of the things listed above can influence a person to commit murder...including ICP.

I agree...but I do think that "dark" people and sociopaths would be drawn to this...and "innocent" and confused kids could get mixed up with them there

I personally find Allysa very scary....I don't see how you can "fix" someone who has no feelings and no sensitivity...

we are basically "bugs" to her...as we might swat a fly or kill a bug she could kill a living loving person...a sweet little girl like Elizabeth

I feel sad for the messed up young gal who hopefully went off to meet her "crush", the horrorcore dj who killed her just cause he "felt like it"...much as he might slap down a mosquito

 

[Bibliophile]

Do you also feel the same way about rap music, war movies, horror movies and video games?

No. As I mentioned in a previous post on this subject, I am not one who is particularly vocal, critical or anal about youth media. While there are some things I do not like about some rap lyrics, I think horror-core music is in a class all to itself. Its a whole new ballgame.

IMO I don't think any of the things listed above can influence a person to commit murder...including ICP.

I don't think there is any media through casual exposure that will cause a normal, well-adjusted teen to go out and do something they normally would not do.

I do believe that continual, repeated exposure to extreme violence and *advertiser censored* is extremely unhealthy for young people no matter how wonderfully adjusted they are. And that's not merely my opinion, there are beau-coup scientific studies to back that up.

That said, I also believe that ICP and horror-core is in a different class than the things you have mentioned and potentially much more damaging.

To be clear - Alyssa Bustamante is responsible for her actions. But we as concerned citizens, parents and grandparents need to open our eyes to this extremely horrific and violent media that is encouraging the killing of other human beings and desensitizing the act of murder. Those who are psychologically vulnerable to it are in our schools, playgrounds and right outside our doorstep.

 

[Bibliophile]

Very true...

I personally think the "real" sociopaths would kill/hurt people without the music...but it may well accelerate or "validate" their dark side? It also brings other emotionally needy kids into their "circle" where they are vulnerable

I am thinking of the gal who began writing to this horrorcore "dj" online...a "fan" of his...he asked her to come out for some festival/concert or whatever and she flew out and he killed her...again for no reason, he "felt like it"

I worry about the "sheep" in the flock of Jugaloos who are exposing themselves to some sick wolves JMO

Exactly.

This isn't just a gory scene in a movie or video game, but an endless amount of lyrics, an entire genre, that glorifies the act of killing in almost ever song. Its victory anthems for psychopaths.

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

On-topic with the discussion of whether Alyssa should be tried as a child or adult. The only thing that I can think is this..

If an adult man had engaged in intercourse with Alyssa the law would consider her a child incapable of making such a decision and would charge the male with statutory rape. But, I'm supposed to believe at the same age she's adult enough to know not to kill a person and therefore should be tried as an adult. I take serious issue with this. Just something that makes me go "Hmmmmmmm".

I do hope she can get the help she so desperately needs. I hope both families of these young ladies get the help they all need. It must be horribly painful for all involved.

 

[Bibliophile]

On-topic with the discussion of whether Alyssa should be tried as a child or adult. The only thing that I can think is this..

If an adult man had engaged in intercourse with Alyssa the law would consider her a child incapable of making such a decision and would charge the male with statutory rape. But, I'm supposed to believe at the same age she's adult enough to know not to kill a person and therefore should be tried as an adult. I take serious issue with this. Just something that makes me go "Hmmmmmmm".

I do hope she can get the help she so desperately needs. I hope both families of these young ladies get the help they all need. It must be horribly painful for all involved.

I understand what you're saying because I thought of it myself but they simply aren't the same. The statutory rape laws are less about a declaration on culpability of the younger person but more about the protection of them. Specifically, protection from being taken advantage of by the wiles of an older, more sophisticated person. You could say that the law is more of a clarification of culpability in light of the fact it takes two to commit the act.

 

[LogicalMinds]

I guess that is why there is no "statuatory" murder charges

I know I may sound "harsh" but I actually am in favor of treating juveniles
as juveniles in MOST cases....but not a planned senseless murder for "fun" and kicks

Supreme court is looking into 2 kids sentenced to life in prison in Florida for habitual crimes....the one is in there for robberies....and I think life is too harsh for that for a teen...

robbery is something that can be socio-economically explained....a robber can still have a heart...(witness the fact that many felons/hard criminals/professional theives, drug dealers etc will beat up a child molester behind bars)

I can even understand a case like where a kid takes a car and joyrides, has a wreck and kills others.....they could be rehabilitated

or a kid is doing drugs and a friend dies...they didn't mean for this to happen, they are addicted...they could be rehabilitated

or whatever....you know in some strange way I can even have some sympathy for a mixed up kid who strikes out and kills in anger or rage or jealousy...maybe maybe they can be rehabilitated

but what is very scary to me is when a kid in a "nice" home plans and premediates and digs graves and kills a sweet little girl "just to see what it feels like"....

I find that very very frightning......I think society needs to be protected from such a predator...and yes, Allysa acted as a "predator" in the truest sense of the word. All the literature and research shows that true sociopaths are hard or even impossible to "rehabilitate"...and if they make a mistake more people could die.

 

[LadyBug99]

No. As I mentioned in a previous post on this subject, I am not one who is particularly vocal, critical or anal about youth media. While there are some things I do not like about some rap lyrics, I think horror-core music is in a class all to itself. Its a whole new ballgame.

I don't think there is any media through casual exposure that will cause a normal, well-adjusted teen to go out and do something they normally would not do.

I do believe that continual, repeated exposure to extreme violence and *advertiser censored* is extremely unhealthy for young people no matter how wonderfully adjusted they are. And that's not merely my opinion, there are beau-coup scientific studies to back that up.

That said, I also believe that ICP and horror-core is in a different class than the things you have mentioned and potentially much more damaging.

To be clear - Alyssa Bustamante is responsible for her actions. But we as concerned citizens, parents and grandparents need to open our eyes to this extremely horrific and violent media that is encouraging the killing of other human beings and desensitizing the act of murder. Those who are psychologically vulnerable to it are in our schools, playgrounds and right outside our doorstep.

Thank you for your thoughts on the topic. My opinion is that AB is obviously very troubled and I don't think the music she listened to would encourage her to kill. IMO ICP and other horrorcore artist's lyrics are not saying anything that I have not seen in a movie or heard/read about when following any horrifying news story. The truth is people are raped, murdered, molested etc. every day in this country and every other country around the world. These lyrics are no different than a book that gives you a detailed account of any crime that is committed....

 

[AndresEscobar]

I guess that is why there is no "statuatory" murder charges

All murder charges are "statutory". Every jurisdiction in the US has codified things that are "illegal" into statutes.

 

[eyes4crime]

Bumping for Elizabeth.

Fellow WSer cecybeans posted the following on one of the Caylee Anthony threads (KC & Family Psyche Profile #10, post #54), and kindly agreed to let me re-post it here. I thought it was relevant to our attempts to figure out what brought AB to this point. Food for thought at least:

"I'm certainly no expert, but I've been fascinated with the field and how it is beginning to dovetail into neurophysiology the more we learn.

I have no idea what causes sociopathy, whether it is genetics or environment or a little of both. But an analogy comes to mind that I always use when contemplating what it must be like.

When children are very tiny, they look at the world very instrumentally, as if everything in it is an extension of themselves and exists simply to satisfy their own wants and needs. This is natural survival instinct for a being that is helpless to satisfy their own requirements and depends on others for sustenance and safety. Eventually they begin to separate sensations into awareness of other discrete entities, first their caretakers and then other people. Children begin to develop empathy for others around 4 or 5, I believe, although that is probably an average. When they do that, they are not in the self-absorbed prison in which all feeling is about themselves and they then have the latitude to and the joy of contemplating their own feelings or what others may feel. This development allows us all to become effective parents, sibling, friends and members of society if we are able to assign the same value for others' as we do for our own feelings, needs and wants.

However, many adults have difficulty transferring that feeling of empathy to others, even if they are not sociopaths. A dysfunctional domestic environment can kind of burn out the nerve endings and make people numb to normal feeling. Addictions can mitigate the ability to consider others' needs as equal to our own. There are a lot of things both physical and environmental that can disturb that equilibrium or warp it.

Since sociopaths' brain activity is started to be studied with fMRI's and other tools, it is becoming clear to scientists that they process information differently, even if the cause is undetermined. Maybe this will help us understand the differences between them and ourselves and even the different degrees of functioning among sociopaths and other personality disorders.

Sociopaths appear to exhibit the most severe dysfunction in terms of inability develop emotionally and become empathetic to their environment; they are always stuck in the prison of themselves and their own needs and wants. It makes them potentially dangerous to others, but there is something profoundly pitiful about them, as if they are strangers in a strange land, unable to be normal and forever cursed with imitating life instead of experiencing it fully.

We used to call the mentally ill evil and warehouse them, we used to house the mentally disabled the same way. We have come a long way in understanding the psyche, but we have a long ways to go. I think the double-edged sword with sociopaths is that they are often loved by their family, and that can make people blind to what they are capable of doing. But the fact they are loved by others, and appear to be such a common phenomenon, may make it easier to study the condition with compassion, understand it better, and perhaps someday create an effective treatment, or at the least, come up with better strategies to help them and us contain their toxic sides.

It does not change the evil that they can do, and we must always be on guard for that. Imooooooo."

Thank you for bringing this great post over for all of us to read. I think it is a brilliant post, full of information and compassion for trying to understand that which makes no sense to us. moo

Evil has never been a useful nor decent description for the mentally ill, and evil to describe the psychopath is just as vague and disheartening. Pedophiles and psychopaths have many family standing by them in times of trouble - they are loved, indicating there are other factors at play besides evil. Doesn't really matter if one processes information differently, what matters is that we know it happens and begin to research it - for all mankind. Excellent post!

 

[petra]

After trying to catch up with the past several dozens threads--
I just want to add that I am thinking of Elizabeth and her family this morning. This is beyond heartbreaking.