MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[ynotdivein]

Biblio, LadyBug, Logical, thanks for the discussion of ICP and the potential impact of their lyrics on developing and possibly already unbalanced minds. I used to think I was completely on the free speech side of this question--censoring lyrics? How Orwellian! But I do agree with Biblio that ICP is a "whole new ballgame."

Then again, we live in a brave new world, and as LadyBug implies we are all, old and young, immersed in more violence every day (through movies & news at least) than anytime in the last century. You could make a case that ICP simply helps desensitize their listeners to the onslaught. They encourage nothing, they simply reflect the world they live in.

And again, one could argue that many types of music could lead a sensitive listener to violent acts they would not otherwise contemplate. Anyone here ever listened to Sarah McLaughlan's "Fallen"? Over & over & over again? While you were feeling depressed? If you haven't, I don't recommend it. But I wouldn't recommend censoring Sarah McL, or only letting over-18s buy her CDs...

But then again--one can't compare SM to ICP, as she does not produce relentlessly depressing anthems to grovelling in one's own worthlessness. From what I've seen, ICP produces relentlessly aggressive anthems touting the wonders of brutality.

Aaaaaand... I'm back to "teach your children well." And watch them closely, no matter how much they resist it. AB needed more, or a different type of, attention than she got from the adults around her. Doesn't absolve her. She needs to stand responsible for her choices and her actions. I just don't know if/how much ICP should share the blame here...

(and @eyes4: will share your thoughts with cecy!)

 

[Bibliophile]

Biblio, LadyBug, Logical, thanks for the discussion of ICP and the potential impact of their lyrics on developing and possibly already unbalanced minds. I used to think I was completely on the free speech side of this question--censoring lyrics? How Orwellian! But I do agree with Biblio that ICP is a "whole new ballgame."

Then again, we live in a brave new world, and as LadyBug implies we are all, old and young, immersed in more violence every day (through movies & news at least) than anytime in the last century. You could make a case that ICP simply helps desensitize their listeners to the onslaught. They encourage nothing, they simply reflect the world they live in.

And again, one could argue that many types of music could lead a sensitive listener to violent acts they would not otherwise contemplate. Anyone here ever listened to Sarah McLaughlan's "Fallen"? Over & over & over again?

You just hit upon what I consider to be the most important point. Of all the different types of media, which are they most likely to watch/hear repeatedly?

Believe it or not, I used to think more like Lady Bug. I don't anymore.

The saturation level that music can attain way surpasses that of any other type of media.

Not only are there countless to studies which document the effects of media, never before has music been so portable. So not only do you have the timeless image of a teen sitting in her room listening to her favorite album over and over again; she's listening to it on the way to school, between classes, at lunch, on the way home, doing chores, etc., etc. and having that genre bolstered through online contacts.

Again (I somehow feel like I have to repeat this ) AB is completely responsible for her actions and needs to be put away for a very long time. All that said ---- I do think that ICP promotes and glorifies the act of murder with a music that has the opportunity to saturate and encourage a lot of very ill people.

 

[Bibliophile]

Bumping for Elizabeth.

Fellow WSer cecybeans posted the following on one of the Caylee Anthony threads (KC & Family Psyche Profile #10, post #54), and kindly agreed to let me re-post it here. I thought it was relevant to our attempts to figure out what brought AB to this point. Food for thought at least:

"I'm certainly no expert, but I've been fascinated with the field and how it is beginning to dovetail into neurophysiology the more we learn.

I have no idea what causes sociopathy, whether it is genetics or environment or a little of both. But an analogy comes to mind that I always use when contemplating what it must be like.

When children are very tiny, they look at the world very instrumentally, as if everything in it is an extension of themselves and exists simply to satisfy their own wants and needs. This is natural survival instinct for a being that is helpless to satisfy their own requirements and depends on others for sustenance and safety. Eventually they begin to separate sensations into awareness of other discrete entities, first their caretakers and then other people. Children begin to develop empathy for others around 4 or 5, I believe, although that is probably an average. When they do that, they are not in the self-absorbed prison in which all feeling is about themselves and they then have the latitude to and the joy of contemplating their own feelings or what others may feel. This development allows us all to become effective parents, sibling, friends and members of society if we are able to assign the same value for others' as we do for our own feelings, needs and wants.

However, many adults have difficulty transferring that feeling of empathy to others, even if they are not sociopaths. A dysfunctional domestic environment can kind of burn out the nerve endings and make people numb to normal feeling. Addictions can mitigate the ability to consider others' needs as equal to our own. There are a lot of things both physical and environmental that can disturb that equilibrium or warp it.

Since sociopaths' brain activity is started to be studied with fMRI's and other tools, it is becoming clear to scientists that they process information differently, even if the cause is undetermined. Maybe this will help us understand the differences between them and ourselves and even the different degrees of functioning among sociopaths and other personality disorders.

Sociopaths appear to exhibit the most severe dysfunction in terms of inability develop emotionally and become empathetic to their environment; they are always stuck in the prison of themselves and their own needs and wants. It makes them potentially dangerous to others, but there is something profoundly pitiful about them, as if they are strangers in a strange land, unable to be normal and forever cursed with imitating life instead of experiencing it fully.

We used to call the mentally ill evil and warehouse them, we used to house the mentally disabled the same way. We have come a long way in understanding the psyche, but we have a long ways to go. I think the double-edged sword with sociopaths is that they are often loved by their family, and that can make people blind to what they are capable of doing. But the fact they are loved by others, and appear to be such a common phenomenon, may make it easier to study the condition with compassion, understand it better, and perhaps someday create an effective treatment, or at the least, come up with better strategies to help them and us contain their toxic sides.

It does not change the evil that they can do, and we must always be on guard for that. Imooooooo."

I very much agree with this.

I know for me and some others, it is difficult to reconcile understanding and compassion for a brain/cognitive disorder with the temporary solution that goes along with accepting that we do not yet have the answer to this problem. As she says, "we must always be on guard" and therefore we have to protect society from these people who can do so much harm.

 

[W8nC]

This (ICP and it's influence on behavior) is a very interesting topic, and I thank everyone who posted information and/or opinions regarding it.

However.....

I asked this weekend....asked 2 of Alsyssa's friends, and they said she didn't listen to ICP, that she didn't like ICP at all. One friend is male, dated her for awhile but not anymore, ate lunch with her at school ever day, hung out with her outside school. The other friend is female, hung out with her a lot, including sleep overs.

The female friend was in the room when the picture was taken with the wild makeup that some have suggested looks like ICP clown makeup. It was Halloween. The necklace Alyssa is wearing in that photo IS the meat cleaver charm, but was borrowed from another friend, who snagged it out of a siblings jewelry box. At the time the photo was taken, none of the girls even knew that was an ICP icon. They just thought it was cool and crazy looking for Halloween. They took other pictures with other makeup and other costumes. These particular ones are what Alyssa chose to display on her MySpace.

No doubt, ICP has a strong influence on some young people. But I do not believe it has any bearing on this specific case.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Thanks for that "insider" info...very interesting

ICP as a seperate topic was interesting...I would be more worried about the "sheep" kids who might get hurt by the wolves

I think that the more we learn about Allyssa the less we know...which is why it is important to keep her locked up as she is not going to be "fixed" easily

The more I read about sociopaths the more I "see" that in other infamous murderers/accused murderers....Scott Peterson, Drew Peterson, Casey Anthony, OJ

one thing I will say for them....they may have had some "justified" reason (ie, divorce, losing money in divorce settlement)....they had more "connection" to their victims

Allysa's "choice" of poor little Elizabeth seems so random and cruel, just to murder that sweet little girl to "see what it felt like"

I hope they never let her out frankly...if they can "learn" something from her, fine...if not, oh well...keep her in there...she is one dangerous person IMHO

 

[AndresEscobar]

Re: ICP

I imagine I'm quite a bit younger than most of you focusing on these lyrics, so i have significantly more experience with music with explicit lyrics. ICP's lyrics are pretty goofy and generally either tongue in cheek or focusing on their warped version of populist posse justice. For instance, "To Catch a Predator" is fairly obviously about killing a child molester. You'd find a lot of similar opinions and statements, though maybe not in such detail, by simply reading these websleuths forums.

Also, these lyrics are nothing compared to a lot more popular rappers, such as eminem, 50 cent, lil wayne, etc.

 

[ynotdivein]

Well dangit, now you-all got me re-kerpuffled! :truce:

OK. ICP irrelevant to this case, on reasonable authority. Maybe there should be an ICP thread in the Parking Lot, just to let us continue the stimulating conversation?

And I will admit that I was sort of starting to adhere to a "THIS must explain AB's actions" kind of thinking. Having been on WS as long as I have, I should have known that there won't be any simple explanations for what has happened. :croc: Thanks to all!

(And Andres, some of us focusing on those lyrics aren't necessarily... well, isn't 30 the new 15 or something? lol)

 

[AndresEscobar]

Well dangit, now you-all got me re-kerpuffled! :truce:

OK. ICP irrelevant to this case, on reasonable authority. Maybe there should be an ICP thread in the Parking Lot, just to let us continue the stimulating conversation?

And I will admit that I was sort of starting to adhere to a "THIS must explain AB's actions" kind of thinking. Having been on WS as long as I have, I should have known that there won't be any simple explanations for what has happened. :croc: Thanks to all!

(And Andres, some of us focusing on those lyrics aren't necessarily... well, isn't 30 the new 15 or something? lol)

My main point about ICP is that they are a niche music group with lyrics that, while violent, are more like cartoon violence than the more realistic depictions of violence in the mainstream. Now, their fans are dedicated, but they seem to subscribe to a type of unconventional morals and beliefs that unite them. From what I've read about them, their lyrics aren't meant to encourage or glorify violence, but to teach about the consequences of immoral or bad behavior.

If you're looking for a better connection to violence associated with Juggalos, I think it has to do with the fact that ICP seems to attract people of lower socio-economic status. I think that has a larger bearing on whether they commit violent crimes rather than the music with which they fill their ipods.

As I said, ICP is underground. In the mainstream, performers like Jay Z, Eminem, Lil Wayne, and 50 cent all blow ICP out of the water when it comes to violence and sexuality in their music. They clean up their singles for the radio, but if you listen to a whole album you'd hear things that put in perspective how silly and cartoonish "Sleep walkers" sounds. Movies and video games too. If violence in media had an actual causal relationship with violent action, violent crime would be significantly higher than it is today.

Again, I have no problem with discussing ICP, but as I've said before: I think they suck and, for lack of a better word, their music is too goofy to be taken seriously in the context of a murder investigation.

 

[ynotdivein]

My main point about ICP is that they are a niche music group with lyrics that, while violent, are more like cartoon violence than the more realistic depictions of violence in the mainstream. Now, their fans are dedicated, but they seem to subscribe to a type of unconventional morals and beliefs that unite them. From what I've read about them, their lyrics aren't meant to encourage or glorify violence, but to teach about the consequences of immoral or bad behavior.

If you're looking for a better connection to violence associated with Juggalos, I think it has to do with the fact that ICP seems to attract people of lower socio-economic status. I think that has a larger bearing on whether they commit violent crimes rather than the music with which they fill their ipods.

As I said, ICP is underground. In the mainstream, performers like Jay Z, Eminem, Lil Wayne, and 50 cent all blow ICP out of the water when it comes to violence and sexuality in their music. They clean up their singles for the radio, but if you listen to a whole album you'd hear things that put in perspective how silly and cartoonish "Sleep walkers" sounds. Movies and video games too. If violence in media had an actual causal relationship with violent action, violent crime would be significantly higher than it is today.

Again, I have no problem with discussing ICP, but as I've said before: I think they suck and, for lack of a better word, their music is too goofy to be taken seriously in the context of a murder investigation.

Very well said. Just watched an episode of "Criminal Minds" before checking in here. Totally underscored what you're saying here... Thanks for provoking my thoughts!

 

[midmorocker]

If I remember correctly, AB's court documents showed that 01/28 is her birthdate. We should all send her a nice cake with a little jail cell drawn in icing on top. J/K

 

[W8nC]

If I remember correctly, AB's court documents showed that 01/28 is her birthdate. We should all send her a nice cake with a little jail cell drawn in icing on top. J/K

I had similar thoughts, lol. But no file in that cake!!

Okay so Alyssa is 16 now. Does that change anything regarding where she can be housed, or anything else?

 

[LadyBug99]

When is her next court date? Was it the beginning of Feb.? TIA

 

[hellinor]

When is her next court date? Was it the beginning of Feb.? TIA

Tuesday Feb 16 (I actually have it in my day planner because I keep wondering and needing to see it in there to keep me from visiting here every 15 mins....)

 

[websurfer]

A 15 year old isnt an adult neither emotionally, physically or mentally. They are a lot less mentally developed to the point, as an adult may, of understanding the consequences of their actions and therefore I believe the court is in error trying her as an adult but I would suspect as in most cases the judge and/or DA are elected officials and that being the case they need to appease those who vote for them on election day, so regardless of what is fair and legal they will likely be more prone to do what the voting community wants them to do rather than do what is right. Such is the legal system in our nation.

AB needs medical care not prison.

:twocents:
I have read of several children who murder.
they deserve what every person who murders deserve.

 

[LadyRider]

So what is this court date for?

 

[vjlaw]

So what is this court date for?

It's a counsel status hearing.

 

[Natal]

:twocents:
I have read of several children who murder.
they deserve what every person who murders deserve.

I have read of several children who have had sex.
Do they deserve to be treated like every other person who has sex?

I don't think it it is right to pick and choose what you think children are mature enough to be held accountable for. Either they are or they aren't, and certainly when it comes to sex society holds that they lack sufficient maturity. So, if they lack maturity to be held accountable for those decisions, they equally lack maturity to held fully accountable for any decision. The reaction of society has to be tempered with that in mind, they can't be treated the same as an adult would be.

 

[eyes4crime]

:twocents:
I have read of several children who murder.
they deserve what every person who murders deserve.

Killing off and shutting away children who don't fit in the so called 'norm' isn't a solution. Shouldn't we figure out why, research the cluster of behavior, and figure out what caused it? We did that with the mentally ill and we learned a great deal. moo

 

[mia g]

I was watching a documentry on A&E last night about huffing.... One of the desriptions of the on the boys they followed made me wonder if it wasnt a possibilty AB was huffing something. The boy died from huffing computer duster in aerosal can, and his parents were a police officer(investigator I beleive) and a nurse. Niether one knew anything about huffing. They said in hindsight and NOW that they know about huffing, their were many signs. They said their son was suddenly violent, when he had never been before..apparently their invetigation they found he had only been huffing for about two weeks, and friend told him it was just air, that made your voice change(kinda like inhaling a helium balloon) Anywho.. I wondered if on top of other drugs, if AB had been huffing recently? Apparently in some "huffers" it makes them suddenly violent and wanting to fight the world, one of the girls that survived huffing, even said, it made her "feel" beigger then anyone in the world. It showed pictures of her when she was high form huffing, and she looked like a complete zombie, she said looking back at the pictures of her curled in a ball w/ glassy eyes and head bobbling all over the place, she says she remembers that day and THOUGHT she was alert and carrying on a converstation with the interviewer.

In the documentry it was pointed out more kids die from huffing then any other drug.. many times the FIRST time they try it.. but the drug, is easy to obtain, and usually free becasue it is in the cleaning cabinets of most homes. With AB gma running a daycare, I cna only imagine the potent cleaning chemicals that could be found, and wasnt the step gpa a computer guy, would imagine he had computer duster around.. Just a thought to make ya go HUHmmmmmm.

 

[LadyRider]

I was watching a documentry on A&E last night about huffing.... One of the desriptions of the on the boys they followed made me wonder if it wasnt a possibilty AB was huffing something. The boy died from huffing computer duster in aerosal can, and his parents were a police officer(investigator I beleive) and a nurse. Niether one knew anything about huffing. They said in hindsight and NOW that they know about huffing, their were many signs. They said their son was suddenly violent, when he had never been before..apparently their invetigation they found he had only been huffing for about two weeks, and friend told him it was just air, that made your voice change(kinda like inhaling a helium balloon) Anywho.. I wondered if on top of other drugs, if AB had been huffing recently? Apparently in some "huffers" it makes them suddenly violent and wanting to fight the world, one of the girls that survived huffing, even said, it made her "feel" beigger then anyone in the world. It showed pictures of her when she was high form huffing, and she looked like a complete zombie, she said looking back at the pictures of her curled in a ball w/ glassy eyes and head bobbling all over the place, she says she remembers that day and THOUGHT she was alert and carrying on a converstation with the interviewer.

In the documentry it was pointed out more kids die from huffing then any other drug.. many times the FIRST time they try it.. but the drug, is easy to obtain, and usually free becasue it is in the cleaning cabinets of most homes. With AB gma running a daycare, I cna only imagine the potent cleaning chemicals that could be found, and wasnt the step gpa a computer guy, would imagine he had computer duster around.. Just a thought to make ya go HUHmmmmmm.

This is just so scary on so many levels.