MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[Bibliophile]

Remember as of Friday early afternoon, October 23 LE made statements to the press who reported: "No foul play is suspected in the young girl's disappearance, so an Amber Alert has not been issued."

The criteria for the issuance of an Amber Alert as recommended by the Dept of Justice was deliberately designed to discourage overuse. Its very specific. LE has to have a reasonable belief that the child has been abducted and have descriptive information about the abductor (among other things). In other words, someone has to see the child being taken.

And in all of the press conferences (posted previously) LE held up until Friday 3 pm did not indicate any inkling of knowing anything, and promised to be forthcoming

This is pretty much standard in any investigation though. Dealing with the press has become very scripted. They don't use the word "suspect" anymore until after an arrest and overall release as little info as possible. This helps to safeguard the investigation against criticism as well as protects the state's case.

IMO LE had zero inkling of what really happened to Elizabeth until evidence was handed to them on Friday

My information is that certain people did have a very, strong inkling. A time line of who was where doing what on that Friday would be interesting.

 

[Bibliophile]

pff, smoked me on some fresh cases there . I'll have to look this one up. Though, since it's second circuit, it isn't binding authority to a Missouri court.

Not binding but very relevant - especially in demonstrating the limitations of Shepard.

Anyway, my basic point is, from my experience, i think there will be an insanity plea suggested and from that the plea agreement will come.

Given the chances of success with that plea, the defense should expect limited leverage from that suggestion. They'll get a bit more leverage if the change of venue is in Boone County (adjacent to Cole) because of the demographics but outside of Boone, their only hope would be the Kansas City or St.Louis metro area. Those two places are far enough away that they may not be "convenient to the parties" per Missouri rules. They may bring jurors into Cole, but again, the luck of the draw is not in their favor.

Someone earlier suggested that a deal would involve her going into the dual jurisdiction program with the Division of Youth Services. That too is problematic given that DYS is under no obligation to accept her and she will no doubt be very near the point of aging out of the program.

 

[kkmiami]

:truce:

Honestly, kkmiami, I'm not disagreeing with you. If it had been me, I'd have been tougher on her, too. Only saying maybe these folks were somewhat overwhelmed. GM was running a business, which she apparently closed a couple months before this happened, and GF traveled in his job and was out of town, from what I understand, 4-5 days a week most weeks. I don't even know if he was at home when the murder occurred. There were 3 other kids to look after, as well.

I TOTALLY AGREE that the knife thing was bad, disturbing, and something I'd have jumped on with both feet, had I seen it and thought for even one second that my kid had anything to do with it...photo or video...and soooo sorry that sounded so nit-picky in my previous post.

No, I don't actually know the GPs. As I said, I met the GF once. My nephew, Alyssa, and some other kids had gone to a local Christiam Church to see a couple of bands play, and the To Write Love on Her Arms presentation. I went to pick up my nephew. It was pouring rain here and Alyssa's GF was coming to pick her up, but wasn't there yet, so we waited with her, drove her to the other parking area to look for him, etc. When he got there, we exchanged a few sentences, and as I said, he seemed nice, but really tired.

It's possible, given her intelligence and her ability to keep others from knowing her secrets, that she convinced her counsellors, and her grandparents, that she was "fine", no more demons in her head, etc. I agree, "if she was my kid", I'd have watched her a LOT closer, just saying I don't think her GPs were bad people, and I'm not ready to condemn them for severe negligence as I was not living in those circumstances and don't feel like I can be judgemental of them without knowing all the details. I know I, and you, would have been more vigilant, but we don't know for sure what their security measures were, or how well Alyssa may have been able to get past them. She may have been under video surveillance, but found ways out anyway. She may have only done MS and FB, etc, when at friends houses. She may have been too shrewd for her GPs to keep complete track of her. We just don't know.

Peace? :toast:

Thank you for the thoughtful response. All points on both sides are valid.

 

[AndresEscobar]

Given the chances of success with that plea, the defense should expect limited leverage from that suggestion. They'll get a bit more leverage if the change of venue is in Boone County (adjacent to Cole) because of the demographics but outside of Boone, their only hope would be the Kansas City or St.Louis metro area. Those two places are far enough away that they may not be "convenient to the parties" per Missouri rules. They may bring jurors into Cole, but again, the luck of the draw is not in their favor.

(respectfully snipped)

I'm going to go a head and disagree with the convenience problem you're bringing up here. Both St Louis and Kansas City are under 170 miles away. That's plenty convenient.

The thing you have to realize is that this isn't EO v. AB. This is the State against AB. And, the state obviously doesn't have a problem getting to St. Louis or KC. And, AB is ward of the state.

To speak from personal experience, I've won venue changes of over 200 miles. Most states have the "convenient to the parties" requirement.

 

[eeyorelrn]

:banghead:

All of this lawyer talk, while VERY helpful in understanding the legal issues facing the Prosecution and Defence, is making me absolutely...

:crazy:



:yow:

And I thought medical terminology was difficult....


But seriously, as confusing as it is to me, it does bring to the forefront how difficult a case this is going to be for EVERYONE involved. SOOO many bridges to cross in this journey....

 

[Prof]

The criteria for the issuance of an Amber Alert as recommended by the Dept of Justice was deliberately designed to discourage overuse. Its very specific. LE has to have a reasonable belief that the child has been abducted and have descriptive information about the abductor (among other things). In other words, someone has to see the child being taken.

I am not sure why there was thought to be a need for a definition of an Amber alert, when my point was the timeline, that Friday morning (two days after EO went missing, and the morning before she was found in te afternoon), LE made statements to the press who reported: "No foul play is suspected in the young girl's disappearance..."

This is pretty much standard in any investigation though. Dealing with the press has become very scripted. They don't use the word "suspect" anymore until after an arrest and overall release as little info as possible. This helps to safeguard the investigation against criticism as well as protects the state's case.

Thanks, this is true, and these definitions might be helpful for someone however, as late as 10 AM Friday morning Sheriff White's press conference was focused on RSOs in the area, and that roughly 13 minute interview did not give any inkling of a direction or a "POI." (and IMO did not seem "scripted")(http://video.krcg.com/global/video/...mat=flv&clipId1=4238405&at1=News&rnd=88651691

As far as avoiding criticism, LE could have qualified their statements in some way as IMO everyone in the country was yelling "how could no foul play be suspected" when a 9 year old girl has been missing for 48 hours? (ie "there is no evidence of foul play under the criteria of the Amber Alert, but there is no evidence to suggest that this did not involve foul play, either; and perhaps even admit that it is not likely she is out playing in the woods)

In fact, in the above 10 am Friday presser, White repeated and highlighted the word "if" when he commented on if foul play or anyone else was involved.

Again, as far as scripting and safeguarding against criticism, I would suggest LE avoid giving personal anecdotes in a press conference (such as the andecdote about White running into a friend and offering that friend without prompt that White was doing okay, and the friend not knowing what White was talking about, as White was trying to make a point about lack of local awareness in this case.) Interesting tell on his focus.

My information is that certain people did have a very, strong inkling. A time line of who was where doing what on that Friday would be interesting.

Yes, I am hoping there is an end result where the LE part of the investigation will be released to the public. While it might be nice to have "your information" and access to "certain people," respectfully I do not

I am only going from the little "facts" that I have seen while reserving judgement. To state that I don't believe LE had any inkling, is not really a criticism toward LE; IMO often leads are gifted rather than excavated. I do think how it all unfolded may have an effect on the way the trial or the plea will unfold. This is only my own inkling, and of course I can be wrongheaded in all of my opinions and inklings

As far as all the quotes from ILC posted here on this thread, I'd like to point out that while "ILC" obviously had some insider information, it seems ILC also had an agenda.

 

[LadyRider]

Correct me if I am wrong, but on Thursday LEOs turned many people away from the search, they scaled way down. I know from past experience - less is more.

 

[Prof]

Yes, especially with the phone pinging in the woods behind Alyssa's house. Still, I think they may have thought she fell in the pond or something similar. It's the murder by teen girl that threw them for a loop.

"Elizabeth's family told ABC that suspect called Elizabeth to invite her back"

LE knew this the night she went missing by way of phone records. They positioned the infrared helicopters and massive search party directly to the woods.

Thanks Gliving
BBM This video report was from 10/28 I believe-- 5 days after the arrest, so I am not sure we know when the family told ABC this information -- The only way Elizabeth's family could know this is if LE told them this, a text message sent? If LE did have this information on Wednesday, it makes me wonder why AB was not heavily questioned Wednesday and Thursday; how could she have missed school on Thursday, unexcused as reported in the courtroom?

I would like to know when the family told ABC this

If you look back at the posts here on the 28th of October, this rumor of AB calling Elizabeth back was also discussed after seeing a local comment to another news story Found Deceased MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martins Thread #4 - Page 5 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Prof]

Correct me if I am wrong, but on Thursday LEOs turned many people away from the search, they scaled way down. I know from past experience - less is more.

Yes, I remember that locals were frustrated by this scaling back, and White discusses the search in the 10 am Friday presser; he states that IF someone else is involved that someone may be watching the news coverage. I suppose it is possible that LE had an inkling that AB was somehow involved and even watched her ditch school on Thursday hoping for a lead, or perhaps LE wanted to question her but could not find her (as I think ILC suggested)

IDK but IMO finding a text message on Wednesday from AB asking Elizabeth to come back would seem enough evidence for some heavy questioning on Wednesday or Thursday; as I stated previously reports of AB asking Elizabeth to come back did not seem to leak until 5 days after the arrest.

 

[vjlaw]

Yes, I remember that locals were frustrated by this scaling back, and White discusses the search in the 10 am Friday presser; he states that IF someone else is involved that someone may be watching the news coverage. I suppose it is possible that LE had an inkling that AB was somehow involved and even watched her ditch school on Thursday hoping for a lead, or perhaps LE wanted to question her but could not find her (as I think ILC suggested)

IDK but IMO finding a text message on Wednesday from AB asking Elizabeth to come back would seem enough evidence for some heavy questioning on Wednesday or Thursday; as I stated previously reports of AB asking Elizabeth to come back did not seem to leak until 5 days after the arrest.

Wasn't AB bemoaning the fact that she didn't have her cell phone? We don't know if the "call" back was even by cell. She could have just ran down the drive or road when EO was heading home and called to her. Just a thought.

 

[LadyBug99]

Wasn't AB bemoaning the fact that she didn't have her cell phone? We don't know if the "call" back was even by cell. She could have just ran down the drive or road when EO was heading home and called to her. Just a thought.

The day that EO went missing AB wrote the following on twiiter - I miss my cell phone :,[

I think it was AB calling out to her. IMO

 

[Jodibug]

Correct me if I am wrong, but on Thursday LEOs turned many people away from the search, they scaled way down. I know from past experience - less is more.

Thursday is the day that I searched. Without going back to check my notes, I believe I was in the woods from about 8am - 1pm. Not sure what time they started turning people away, but it would have been in the afternoon, possibly late afternoon.

I know I waited about the command post for 60-90 mins before my search team went out, because there were soooo many volunteers that it took them a long time to run the background checks to approve people and then assemble the teams.

By the time they started turning people away, I am sure they had several hundred searchers already.

Also.... it would have been getting dark by 6pm or so (before 5pm now).... only so much you can do at that time of day.

 

[gliving]

Prof, Friday 10AM the sheriff says, "What we're endeavoring to do is find a young lady very much alive," said White. "And reunite her with her family. We still have hope."

Which is puzzling if they knew then that AB killed Elizabeth. Consider that perhaps AB confessed she hid Elizabeth in the woods but omitted the part about also murdering her. I could see the sheriff holding onto hope of recovering a very cold and wet, but alive Elizabeth. It would have been less than 48 hours since her disappearance and the chance of finding her alive was still a possibility in his mind.

It wouldn't be until AB led LE to her hiding spot that all hope was dashed.

Friday morning: "in contrast to yesterday, which was a "mass saturation search", White said today's search will be more pin-pointed and directed.

White also said the department has some phone records back from AT&T from Elizabeth's cell phone and investigators are going through those."

Which lead me to believe they knew about the last phone call Thursday or Friday.

MOO

 

[KBL100]

Well it is my opinion that LWOP for 15 year old child is cruel and unusual as per the US Constitution.

It is MY OPINION that death to a 9 year old by the hands of a 15 year old is even more cruel and unusual.

 

[LadyRider]

If LEOs had a inkling of AB or someone in the family do you think the delay in speaking with them could have been with getting the proper people in place, e.g. juv officer, attorney, grandparents? And if not they surely had reason to just watching the house and the actions of all living at residence. Because also ILC stated that him and/or his friend could not even get out of the driveway.

 

[Prof]

The day that EO went missing AB wrote the following on twiiter - I miss my cell phone :,[

I think it was AB calling out to her. IMO

How would anyone know if it was just a shout out and not a phone call?

 

[LogicalMinds]

Jodibug...bless you for going out there to look for Elizabeth

for you..and other locals...how are the kids doing at school now?? Missing Elizabeth??
still in shock?? I know there were "counselors" sent out there...but is there ongoing help for these kids?? what about the "friends" of Allyssa?? I think they need help too

and I hope those brothers and little sister are getting intensive counseling...

this is simply such a horrible story....kids must feel so frightened...if your little friends big sister might kill a kid just for kicks and giggles..."to see what it feels like"
that is scary...to the kids...to the parents...to everyone JMO

 

[Bibliophile]

Thanks, this is true, and these definitions might be helpful for someone however, as late as 10 AM Friday morning Sheriff White's press conference was focused on RSOs in the area, and that roughly 13 minute interview did not give any inkling of a direction or a "POI." (and IMO did not seem "scripted")

By scripted, I am referring to the standard LE speak when giving interviews about ongoing investigations. I agree that White could have done a better job with his explanations.

In fact, in the above 10 am Friday presser, White repeated and highlighted the word "if" when he commented on if foul play or anyone else was involved.

White became the spokesperson by default because it was under his jurisdiction. Technically, he ran the investigation. It doesn't mean he was the best person or the most qualified person or that he gave an accurate representation and consensus of all LE involved - it simply was what it was.

FBI and MSHP investigators were on scene form almost the beginning - but keep in mind they're not in charge. I was told that there were investigators whose had an interest in AB early on - and frankly it only makes sense: Limited, low risk area, limited possible perpetrators. In the case of a child killing and the absence of an RSO next door you focus on the family and acquaintances last known to be with the victim. 15 yr old at the house where EO was last seen with a history of psych problems?? She'd be number one on the list with experienced detectives.

The sheriff was concluding a press conference as the case was being solved, which IMO is a bit telling. Through no real fault of his own he didn't have a lot of experience with investigating child murder. But come to think of it wouldn't it be nice if no one did?

IMO and to be honest, we really have little to complain about. All and all this case was solved much more quickly than most. AB was dead by the time LE was called so its not like anything could have been done to change it. At least there was a fast resolution for the family and they were able to appropriately place her to rest. Sadly that's something that many families never get.

 

[Bibliophile]

The thing you have to realize is that this isn't EO v. AB.

You know I know this.

And you're right; the convenience issues would not exclude the more metropolitan areas.

In a round about way what I am trying to say is that there are only a handful of counties in the entire state that may give the defense a bit more leverage with suggesting an insanity plea. Demographically, there are many counties (at least 75-80) where she would have been better off staying in Cole. Anything south of Cole is the Bible Belt and the majority of the entire state is rural/agricultural/conservative.

 

[AndresEscobar]

You know I know this.

And you're right; the convenience issues would not exclude the more metropolitan areas.

In a round about way what I am trying to say is that there are only a handful of counties in the entire state that may give the defense a bit more leverage with suggesting an insanity plea. Demographically, there are many counties (at least 75-80) where she would have been better off staying in Cole. Anything south of Cole is the Bible Belt and the majority of the entire state is rural/agricultural/conservative.

of course I do. I'm just making sure everyone else following our discourse is aware. Things tend to get repeated in these here threads. . .

Anyway, I agree that St Louis and KC areas are the best. After than, the leverage only exists in the cost of going to trial. Which is still substantial. I wouldn't want to commit a crime in rural Missouri.

That said, I still don't see this going to trial.