MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #4

[PeriodicalCuriosity]

Hmmm...seems like I read on AB's twitter that they had just gotten new kittens a few months ago. Wonder how those kittens are doing?

She seemed excited about them--in a sweet or just regular kid way.

 

[nursebeeme]

just want to state an opinion... the person that killed Elizabeth will have every part of her background pulled apart for the whys and what ifs. One rotten apple does not make the whole bushel bad. Meaning whatever she was into (goth, scene, emo, cutting, death, etc) will be viewed within the context of her...her choices...her motivations not looking at the groups that she chose to associate with. Gestalt. The whole will be the sum of the parts.

moo.

 

[MDATCA]

Hello all, and I would just like to welcome myself. I have helped with the Victoria Stafford case as well as currently discussing on the Morgan Harrington case, but have looked over many forums in the past couple of days.

Many of you have very legit points, and very intelligent conclusions, however, I am a little offended at AB's appearance that keeps being brought forward in some responses on this board.
I would like to clarify a couple of things, she is NOT goth, not even a little bit. The style you are seeing is either classified as Emo or Scene. This is the trend everywhere right now, and has been for years now- but in no way was this girl a goth. I get coined goth all of the time. I am now in my twenties with two post-secondary diplomas and certifications in various courses. I own my own business and have never had a run in with the LE or with anyone else for that matter. I am your "stereotypical" goth; black hair, pale skin, dark makeup at times (not black lipstick, but red), typical "black" fashion. I listen to a variety of music, including yes, Marilyn Manson, a lot of underground industrial bands, but even bands from the Cure, Dead can Dance, to AHA or Johnny Cash. I recently saw Manson in concert and can't say that anyone at his concert was disrespectful in the least. I think a lot of the people on this board can be ignorant to the fact that they lump "goth" people into something that is negative. I am not negative. I hold a very successful life, and even though I had a bad childhood, it ultimately comes down to the choice that you yourself can make, and ONLY you.

These comments of ritual killings (like the WM3 which I believe are innocent boys), rarely happen, but I am not going to disagree that a lot of these killings end up being men or women dressed in "dark" fashions. A lot of "troubled" teenagers seek this route to emanate how they feel on the inside, but like a lot of us, we do it because we like it. It's no different than you always buying that "red shirt" because you love red! We are drawn to dark shades, and eclectic jewelry (well I am anyway) because that is what appeals to me. Do I call myself goth? No. I call myself being me.

Honestly, it's a culture, much like teenage girls going to a popular dance bar and dressing in slinky one-shouldered tops and skinny jeans with heels... Only we may frequent a different type of club that listens to a different beat- but we are both still dancing, it's just the matter in which it's done.

I also would like to mention that I was a cutter at an age where I didn't even know there was a term for it. I hid it from everybody, I wore long sleeves and pants in the summer, no one ever found out. I can say from experience that some people do it for attention, but I can also say that there are many who do not. It makes the person feel like they are getting the pain out, much like an arguing person punching someone in the face would (again, only in a different medium).

So my whole idea is, that no matter how this girl dressed or what medical condition she may or may not have, all of this boils down to the lack of parenting of this girl. Luckily my parents were always by my side, and hence me turning out successfully. I cannot say that this girl had a good life at all, and sometimes people are too weak to turn their lives around like I chose to do. Most serial killers had horrible childhoods- do the math here and stop pointing fingers at AB's attire.

Thank you

I agree with the whole dressing/lifestyle statement you make. As I said earlier evil comes in all shapes, sizes, colors and clothing. I do not agree that it is lack of parenting. Saying that is making the same kind of assumptions that offend you. As I said earlier you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. We do not know what her guardians were or weren't doing in those regards. Also parents hands are tied when a child reaches a certain age. Where I live it is 13 when they can refuse treatment and there is nothing as a parent you can do about it. So until more comes out about that I think it is best that we place the blame squarely on the person who chose to commit the crime. I can't believe they would blissfully go on with their lives thinking that a person in their house would do something like this. That is foolish thinking because they wouldn't know if they or onother child in the household would have been the victim. I hardly think they took turns sitting up all night watching to make sure it wasn't them so they cold continue raising a would be killer in their house.

 

[Capri]

Hello all, and I would just like to welcome myself. I have helped with the Victoria Stafford case as well as currently discussing on the Morgan Harrington case, but have looked over many forums in the past couple of days.

Many of you have very legit points, and very intelligent conclusions, however, I am a little offended at AB's appearance that keeps being brought forward in some responses on this board.
I would like to clarify a couple of things, she is NOT goth, not even a little bit. The style you are seeing is either classified as Emo or Scene. This is the trend everywhere right now, and has been for years now- but in no way was this girl a goth. I get coined goth all of the time. I am now in my twenties with two post-secondary diplomas and certifications in various courses. I own my own business and have never had a run in with the LE or with anyone else for that matter. I am your "stereotypical" goth; black hair, pale skin, dark makeup at times (not black lipstick, but red), typical "black" fashion. I listen to a variety of music, including yes, Marilyn Manson, a lot of underground industrial bands, but even bands from the Cure, Dead can Dance, to AHA or Johnny Cash. I recently saw Manson in concert and can't say that anyone at his concert was disrespectful in the least. I think a lot of the people on this board can be ignorant to the fact that they lump "goth" people into something that is negative. I am not negative. I hold a very successful life, and even though I had a bad childhood, it ultimately comes down to the choice that you yourself can make, and ONLY you.

These comments of ritual killings (like the WM3 which I believe are innocent boys), rarely happen, but I am not going to disagree that a lot of these killings end up being men or women dressed in "dark" fashions. A lot of "troubled" teenagers seek this route to emanate how they feel on the inside, but like a lot of us, we do it because we like it. It's no different than you always buying that "red shirt" because you love red! We are drawn to dark shades, and eclectic jewelry (well I am anyway) because that is what appeals to me. Do I call myself goth? No. I call myself being me.

Honestly, it's a culture, much like teenage girls going to a popular dance bar and dressing in slinky one-shouldered tops and skinny jeans with heels... Only we may frequent a different type of club that listens to a different beat- but we are both still dancing, it's just the matter in which it's done.

I also would like to mention that I was a cutter at an age where I didn't even know there was a term for it. I hid it from everybody, I wore long sleeves and pants in the summer, no one ever found out. I can say from experience that some people do it for attention, but I can also say that there are many who do not. It makes the person feel like they are getting the pain out, much like an arguing person punching someone in the face would (again, only in a different medium).

So my whole idea is, that no matter how this girl dressed or what medical condition she may or may not have, all of this boils down to the lack of parenting of this girl. Luckily my parents were always by my side, and hence me turning out successfully. I cannot say that this girl had a good life at all, and sometimes people are too weak to turn their lives around like I chose to do. Most serial killers had horrible childhoods- do the math here and stop pointing fingers at AB's attire.

Thank you

I'll be honest, you can call yourself "just being me", or "goth" or any other term. But you haven't allegedly murdered someone. People who are arrested on murder charges are inevitably going to come under scrutiny, and for good reason. So, as long as you're a nice law-abiding citizen and don't hurt anybody, we're all good, no matter what you call yourself.

 

[PeriodicalCuriosity]

you raise a really good question. I guess it depends on whether it was personal or just a crime of opportunity. It will be interesting to see as the case unfolds.

It seems more and more like a crime of opportunity, which, what the hell do I know, but as this story unfolds, well, it haunts me--disturbs me. Poor little Elizabeth...

 

[Mendara]

But like I said, Mendara, she is not what is considered to be goth. She would be Emo or Scene. Nothing about this girl is goth, that I can tell you. However, it still seems to be irrelevant. This incident occurred because this girl's parents were not in the picture to raise a proper daughter. JMO.

Do we know that about her parents yet? I bet she wasn't goth at all, but I think a lot of factors contributed to her behavior. I wonder if there were others involved - you know a dare or a group thing.

 

[lishac23]

Hello everyone, I'm new to Websleuths (already addicted) and I am totally amazed at everyone's "sleuthing" skills.

When I first saw that a 15 year old was arrested for this crime, my mind quickly remembered the Eric Smith case (13 year old boy that murdered his 4 year old neighbor). Mostly because of the community "outrage" and the overall need to know why or how a 15 year old could commit such a crime. As in the Smith case, the why was never answered and there was no rhyme or reason for the crime and I am afraid the same will ring true in this case.
For whatever reason (nature or nurture) there are people in this world who have no conscious and are incapable of any human empathy.

 

[Capri]

The more I hear/read the more questions I have.

If in fact the grave was dug last week and planned out was it all with Elizabeth in mind? Or do you think if Elizabeth wasn't there it could have been whoever was available?

Was it planned down to everything or did AB have a partial plan and desire and the oppurtunity happen and she jumped on it?

QUOTE]

I was JUST wondering the same exact thing!

Nothing confirmed of a pre-dug grave, at this point, so we don't know.

 

[Prof]

I just read that the death of the teacher was not related- that he had been terminally ill and had just reached the point where he couldn't take it anymore.

Also, I want to know where the suspect's family is now? If they live just a few houses away from the victim, did they stay? Can you even imagine being that close to the evil? Have they shown any sympathy to or ahd any contact with Elizabeth's family since this tragedy? I'm sure no one has these answers, but have any of you wondered the same thing?

PS. I'm a long time lurker here ever since Caylee Anthony...

I don't know... I cannot remember where I read about the suspect's family leaving the area right away.. I am still stuck on the relationship between the two deaths in one week in JC, MO. (I suppose it is because I think this perp was reaching out ahead of time)

Here is a link to an article on Currie's funeral.

http://www.newstribune.com/articles/2009/10/29/news_local/063local11currie09.txt

Reportedly (by a NT subscriber in another site)the paid subscription full article states that the Sheriff in the EO case was the last to visit Currie....(I did not subscribe to verify, but maybe I should)

Here is a link to a picture of the front page of the paper There's a picture of Elizabeth's funeral procession and the article on the teacher on front page.
http://epaper.wehco.com/Daily/skins/JeffersonCity/

Sheriff Greg White used to be a resource officer for the perp's school. Here is an interesting article from July of this year on the Sheriff's ideas on school violence :|

http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=331460


"When asked if Jefferson City could handle a Columbine? Cole County Sheriff Greg White answered, 'I think we're still building a preparedness structure.'"

"A former school resource officer, White was one of five expert panelists in a no-holds-barred discussion of school shootings."

“'If a human being desires to damage other people, they're going to do it,'" said White.

The Sheriff was a school resource officer at JCHS for 13 years, but not when the perp attended...also interesting that the Sheriff is also a preacher
http://www.wordandway.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=231&Itemid=95

 

[tlcya]

It seems more and more like a crime of opportunity, which, what the hell do I know, but as this story unfolds, well, it haunts me--disturbs me. Poor little Elizabeth...

As if you snatched the words right out of my mouth, I could not have described it better myself. It haunts me . . .

 

[Capri]

http://www.bnd.com/336/story/981938.html#

"A phone number registered to the house where the warrant was served was disconnected, and there was no answer at the door Monday."

 

[MCDRAW]

But like I said, Mendara, she is not what is considered to be goth. She would be Emo or Scene. Nothing about this girl is goth, that I can tell you. However, it still seems to be irrelevant. This incident occurred because this girl's parents were not in the picture to raise a proper daughter. JMO.

It goes way beyound that. I'm sure it would have been better for her had she had parents in the picture. But lots of people have had terrible home lives and have not become killers. And many have had great lives that have become killers. It's deeper than what she wears, what she listens to, who she is friends with, or what kind of home life she had. She made a choice. Why she made the choice she did, no one may ever know.

 

[tlcya]

But lots of people have had terrible home lives and have not become killers. And many have had great lives that have become killers. It's deeper than what she wears, what she listens to, who she is friends with, or what kind of home life she had. She made a choice.

Logically I think we all know that, but as humans, mothers, fathers, parents we wish there were some easy culprit to lay blame on. You are absolutely right. I am a survivor of sexual abuse. That experience could have led me down the path of alchoholism, drug addiction, prostitution, child abuser, who knows where. It didn't. It formed and shaped who I am though, inarguably.

Bottom line, you are the sum of not just your life's experiences, but how you choose to process them.

 

[gliving]

Reportedly (by a NT subscriber in another site)the paid subscription full article states that the Sheriff in the EO case was the last to visit Currie....(I did not subscribe to verify, but maybe I should)

It is unusual that the Sheriff was the last person to visit Currie. Then again, they were friends and Currie was ill. If Currie was aware of anything, do you think we will ever hear? I doubt it. He can't testify in court since he took his own life. Which makes one wonder even more what he knew.

 

[Turtles]

someone has a SICK, and TWISTED mind and they too need help!

If "that" comment was posted by that individual she still needs help to write something that out of line.

Please let me state for the record that the "Turtles" on that site and I are not in any way shape or form related.

 

[danni]

Please let me state for the record that the "Turtles" on that site and I are not in any way shape or form related.

Obviously, them "turtles" are nuttier than squirrel crap!

 

[Bibliophile]

So my whole idea is, that no matter how this girl dressed or what medical condition she may or may not have, all of this boils down to the lack of parenting of this girl.

I'm going to respectfully disagree and offer you another perspective to consider.

There are many factors which may determine behavior. In the absence of severe abuse and neglect, I don't think the parents have as much to do with outcomes, good and bad, as we might like to believe. I think the "blame the parents" mentality has been way over used and thus has sadly taken away from personal responsibility and integrity.

That said, it is more than evident that many of the current trends and fads have a dark, morose element. I think when a vulnerable individual is immersed in this sort of atmosphere they can be affected by it in ways that you or I may not. While most may know that certain lyrics, expressions, etc. are metaphorical and "artsy" - those that have faulty cognition may interpret it very differently.

As I've posted before, with the information I have, I think AB is mentally ill. I think she would have been no matter what. The one thing I ponder is whether or not she was one of those vulnerable individuals where the subculture helped push her to murder.

 

[Capri]

It goes way beyound that. I'm sure it would have been better for her had she had parents in the picture. But lots of people have had terrible home lives and have not become killers. And many have had great lives that have become killers. It's deeper than what she wears, what she listens to, who she is friends with, or what kind of home life she had. She made a choice. Why she made the choice she did, no one may ever know.

Well said!

 

[chicagofa13]

Great sleuthing everyone. I don't have time for reading every bit of the thread and have even less time for posting, but I try to stop in and see what is new each day.

IMO this girl deserves LWOP and nothing less. Please don't let some candy-*advertiser censored** bleeding heart judge get ahold of this one. She's an adult.

 

[crimecurious]

Here's a link to dear old "Dad"...
Type in AB's last name and first initial C
https://web.mo.gov/doc/offSearchWeb/