MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #8

[bigflaw]

Sorry to say, that prob would have been for the best after the fact.

We know this girl was suicidal. But coupled with sociopathy, it's not that far flung. Could have been symbolic (end of life)... if it's true.

 

[crimecurious]

We know this girl was suicidal. But coupled with sociopathy, it's not that far flung. Could have been symbolic (end of life)... if it's true.

We'll prob never know....

 

[gliving]

How deep would a grave have to be to not be detected by the infrared helicopters?

And how long would it take to refill the grave? I would think at least a half an hour.

 

[Kimster]

How deep would a grave have to be to not be detected by the infrared helicopters?

And how long would it take to refill the grave? I would think at least a half an hour.

I was wondering about the depth of the grave also! Because in the Wix case, they used sonar to test the ground since they believe the girls were buried. I wondered if they used sonar in this case while searching. Do they use sonar as normal protocol? And how far down can the sonar go? (I was wondering if maybe the sonar didn't work in the Wix case cuz they are buried deep?)

 

[Kimster]

I don't think the grave would take long to fill in if there was a pile of dirt on the side.

Another question I have is why didn't the ground look disturbed when they searched? I would think you could easily see a freshly filled-in grave?

 

[vjlaw]

2 things I've been trying to find out if anyone can help....

1) info on AB's bio Mom. I know her last known address... but the house is now for sale and appears empty. I guess the reason for curiosity is I've been wondering what AB's early years were like.

2) An exact location of where EO was found. I guess there was a map on a local news channel, but it's not on their website.

I've been wondering about the bio-mom as well. If AB is going through evaluations that include home environment and mental state, did they find the bio-mom to input that early childhood? Did they do those evaluations at the Prenger Center?

 

[snowshuze]

I don't think the grave would take long to fill in if there was a pile of dirt on the side.

Another question I have is why didn't the ground look disturbed when they searched? I would think you could easily see a freshly filled-in grave?

I would think the rain and leaves falling would cover things up very quickly.

 

[gliving]

Kimster, maybe the grave was covered with leaves and branches. They said it was very well hidden.

And the silk scarf? Unusual item for a teen.

 

[gliving]

I've been wondering about the bio-mom as well. If AB is going through evaluations that include home environment and mental state, did they find the bio-mom to input that early childhood? Did they do those evaluations at the Prenger Center?

I think her parental rights were severed when KB got custody, but I not sure how that works. Perhaps KB had guardianship for a temporary time until biomom got her act together. I wonder if she would still be contacted.

 

[crimecurious]

I think it was EO's scarf...

And as for the terrain.. I so understand the difficulty searching.. it's rough!!!

 

[Bibliophile]

How deep would a grave have to be to not be detected by the infrared helicopters?

Infrared detects electromagnetic or thermal radiation. Death would make a human body blend more with the surrounding objects, therefore it could be laying in the open and not be found by those means.

 

[Jules71]

I think DD16 is Hoppy's daughter.

DD = Darling daughter
DS = Darling son
DH = Darling husband

16= her age

 

[Csquare]

Hoppy please accept my condolences also on the death of your dd's classmates.

There would be plenty of things to help conceal a grave in the woods that would make it very hard to detect or even see the ground had been disturbed.
Just wondering if AB was tasked with keeping an eye on the 6yo and EO was over there often playing therefore having to watch them both. AB dug 2 graves, one for each girl, so she would no longer be responsible for watching them.
I am still convinced AB also had RAD. As I have said before a RAD child is very sneaky, coniving, and also sweet and innocent.

 

[lawlady84]

Haha I found a great little Xanga blog RP had back in 2006. He apparently was not very popular, and gave his phonenumber out on the internet so he didn't have to sit home alone saturday nights anymore.

...not that I can make fun of that at this point. *looks at calendar*

If you have RPs facebook, the username at the top (www.facebook.com/______) is his username on a bunch of other sites. Fantastic.

 

[KBL100]

I don't think the grave would take long to fill in if there was a pile of dirt on the side.

Another question I have is why didn't the ground look disturbed when they searched? I would think you could easily see a freshly filled-in grave?

Didn't I read that the grave was supposedly dug about a week before? Had it been raining that week? What I'm getting at is that the pile of dirt that would have been there I would think would not be "loose" dirt. I'm thinking it would be more compacted? from the rain that week or the previous rains. I would think she might have needed a shovel or something. Can someone verify the weather in that week before?

I too wonder how the fresh grave was overlooked. If you dig a grave and put something in it....you have more dirt than will go back into the now not empty grave.

 

[Csquare]

Didn't I read that the grave was supposedly dug about a week before? Had it been raining that week? What I'm getting at is that the pile of dirt that would have been there I would think would not be "loose" dirt. I'm thinking it would be more compacted? from the rain that week or the previous rains. I would think she might have needed a shovel or something. Can someone verify the weather in that week before?

I too wonder how the fresh grave was overlooked. If you dig a grave and put something in it....you have more dirt than will go back into the now not empty grave.

It is my understand that the grave was dug the Fri prior. The woods were pretty dense so that gives you all kinds of cover to use. I am not sure what the weather was like on around the 16th of Oct. I am not even sure how deep the grave was.

 

[fhc]

Didn't I read that the grave was supposedly dug about a week before? Had it been raining that week? What I'm getting at is that the pile of dirt that would have been there I would think would not be "loose" dirt. I'm thinking it would be more compacted? from the rain that week or the previous rains. I would think she might have needed a shovel or something. Can someone verify the weather in that week before?

I too wonder how the fresh grave was overlooked. If you dig a grave and put something in it....you have more dirt than will go back into the now not empty grave.

Trying to catch up. 2 graves were dug a week before the crime by AB?

 

[Csquare]

That is our understanding from what has been reported.

 

[hoppyfrog]

Do you know if there is a place where I can find all of the Websleuth acronyms?? As a newbie here and long time lurker, I can pick up on most of them based on the content of the post but there are a few that still throw me. (When I Google DD16 I get something on Heavy Duty Diesel Engines!)

<giggle about your googling>

I actually don't know about a central location where there is a list of WS acronyms, but here are a few I can recall:

TOS= terms of service
LE=law enforcement
LEO=law enforcement officer
=piece of chit
SO=sex offender
RSO=registered sex offender
FB=facebook
MS=myspace

and then the typical

tia=thanks in advance
hth=hope this helps
iirc=if I recall correctly
iow=in other words
OP=other poster

Someone else (thank you) already mentioned the DD, DS, and DH. THen you can go beyond that to DSIL, DMIL, etc for other relatives.

If I think of more, I'll post them.

Hoppy

 

[danni]

How deep would a grave have to be to not be detected by the infrared helicopters?

A question along the same lines but with a different tactic.
How deep would the grave have to be for cadaver dogs to miss the grave/body?