MO - Furious Friends Demand Answers After 3 Men Found Dead at Kansas City Home Days After Watching Football Game, January 2024 #3

[Interested_But_Confused]

I’m not a lawyer, but I think JW might face criminal charges if he provided the drugs.

I guess. Though in this case JW had only recently moved back to the area, and his friends (at least one of them) appear to have a long history of drug-taking. I'd be a bit surprised if they relied on JW to provide their drugs when they'd presumably had their own suppliers when he wasn't there.

 

[Forest_Wood]

At this point I think the worst JW could be accused of in this case is going into denial, and not reporting what had happened if he did know his friends were out in the garden. There was no attempt to hide the bodies or anything of that nature.

To me his story of not knowing they were out there is very believable. In all probability all four men took the drug, and JW was simply the one who was lucky and survived. I don't see there being anything more nefarious than that.

The one thing I keep questioning in my mind is if it was in their cocaine supply, why didn't they use their coke earlier? Wouldn't they want it earlier to "enjoy" the evening? Would they have to take both cocaine and fentanyl at the same time or could they have taken the fentanyl later to come down before heading home?

 

[10ofRods]

<modsnip - this drug has not been indicated in this case and is off topic>

Would someone here put that into perspective.
What would Level 10 fentanyl look like in terms of size? And Level 30?
Does it smell? Is there a colour to it? Is there a taste to it?

I believe the report said that 10 mg can be fatal and that the men had the equivalent of 30 mg. It's a system of measurement that analyzes the amount of fentanyl per volume of blood.

For comparison, the procedure I recently had (using fentanyl in a hospital setting) used .05 mg intravenously. So .05 mg for my whole body to use - and they had way more than that in their blood.
I may have had more than that over the hour of the procedure (I don't remember much about it, of course - which was the point). I've actually had fentanyl on two other occasions (along with sedation). Always .05 mg (5 mcg) as the initial dose.

Fentanyl molecule looks like the below image (image freely available from Wikipedia Commons). It is not visible to the naked eye. As synthesized, it's typically a white powder. Here's a good article on fentanyl overdose:

Fentanyl and Opioid Awareness | Riley County Official Website

Resources, tools, and information to help raise awareness about the dangers of illicit drug use.

www.rileycountyks.gov

In which 2 mg is enough to be fatal in first time users. Again, regular medical dosage for adults in surgery is .05 mg (way less than 2 mg. 100 times less? My math ability isn't at its peak right now. The minute amounts of fentanyl when cut with other drugs are NOT detectable by taste or smell (just as you can't tell whether you're taking plain Tylenol or Tylenol with codeine by taste or smell - while most of us who've chewed our tylenol know the taste of acetaminophen). We're talking such small chemical amounts (with fentanyl) that it's virtually undetectable (and is ground up very fine for distribution - either by itself as a white powder that is mostly odorless OR, more commonly, with some kind of other carrier - inert or not).

I can't remember what blood volume was mentioned in the toxicology report for these victims.

 

[Forest_Wood]

Thawing or not thawing the body - there are ways of determining ToD in frozen bodies. Time to freeze and time to thaw are not particularly important to those calculations.

I wrote a long post about it, but to summarize:

Different parts of the body freeze more quickly. Deeper organs freeze last. Brain will show visible signs (upon tomography) of hypothermia and then freezing. There are charts and calculators that medical examiners use to compare all this data (first subtracting, of course, the time it took for the body to entirely freeze). Weather data is used as well.

Then, there are enzymes produced by dead cells (which will be dying at different rates in a human body - most likely fingertips first). Usually, samples are taken from 4-5 different organ systems. Decomp still happens, even in deeply frozen bodies (like the Iceman found in Italy). It's just way slower. There are ways to learn just how long it took (bloating, for example, may still happen in parts of the body at temperatures like the ones we have in this case). The gases in the bloating will be frozen in place as the body freezes. Upon thawing, samples are taken that give a good picture of the process of death.

None of this depends on the body size of the individual. It's all biochemistry of death.

IMO.

So does that mean that they CAN pinpoint the TOD in these individuals?

 

[10ofRods]

The one thing I keep questioning in my mind is if it was in their cocaine supply, why didn't they use their coke earlier? Wouldn't they want it earlier to "enjoy" the evening? Would they have to take both cocaine and fentanyl at the same time or could they have taken the fentanyl later to come down before heading home?

Do keep in mind that 5th guy was, apparently, a drug dealer - at least as reported in MSM, he has a record. And yes, they could have used fentanyl separately. I've known people to add in opiates to a night of doing coke, because they realize they are never going to "come down" and sleep (and they may have work the next day plus they don't want their families to know they're wired, so they use an opiate to "down" themselves).

Those details will be interesting to know/find out. It was the fentanyl that killed them, IMO. 10 mg is 5x what the novice user can overdose with. (See my earlier post and that link). In that article it states that 2 mg would look approximately like 5-7 grains of salt. If a person is used to snorting coke, that would seem like "nothing."

I need to find the article that gives the toxicology data (I can't find it anywhere this morning).

 

[DFWNF]

“As a brother, I’m looking at everything,” Price told Chris Cuomo on Monday, adding that Johnson was “found on a lawn chair on the back porch, rather than all three laying flat, which paints a picture we didn’t have from the very beginning

Kansas City Chiefs Fan Found Frozen to Death was Seated in Lawn Chair, Brother Says

One of the deceased Kansas City Chiefs fans discovered in the backyard of an HIV scientist’s residence was found in a seated position on a back porch chair, not lying flat, according to statements from the brother of one of the victims. News Nation reports that Jonathan Price expressed...

www.crimeonline.com

Thank you BeachSky. I saw an earlier statement that 1 was frozen to the dirt. I appreciate your reply.

 

[10ofRods]

So that mean that they CAN pinpoint the TOD in these individuals?

IMO, yes. There are a bunch of more esoteric methods that can be used than the ones I described - but comparing the time of cell death within the central organs would be the overall method.

Frozen bodies (like the 5300 year old body of Otzi the Iceman) reveal a ton of preserved information. And it is the techniques developed in forensic anthropology for study of Otzi that have been crucial in learning all of this. We know, for example, what his last meal was (and how long before death he ate it - itself an important bit of evidence for establishing time of death). Again, it isn't hard to calculate how long it takes a body to freeze at X temperature. Stomach contents freeze later than fingers, etc. All of this can be estimated to a level that nears precision.

The frozen bodies of the Denisovans are still yielding valuable data about how they lived - and died.

I should also mention that a frozen body would preserve evidence of whether they smoked or inhaled a drug. IMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I am not lumping all addicts into one box. Please re-read my comment. By "addict's schedule", I mean the schedule around their addiction, what is important to them and what isn't when they are actively using. That next chance to use is the most important thing, and things like making dinner, getting to work on time, picking up ones pets or even CHILDREN, can fall by the wayside because you are so focused on getting what you need into your system.

But that's a generalization. It does not present that way for everyone and we cannot presume to know what it was like for the individuals in this case.

 

[branmuffin]

So does that mean that they CAN pinpoint the TOD in these individuals?

I did find this medical report referring to the post mortem microbiome of murdered children who had been frozen after death.

https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/138306/jfo13419.pdf?sequence=1

 

[ElizB]

I guess. Though in this case JW had only recently moved back to the area, and his friends (at least one of them) appear to have a long history of drug-taking. I'd be a bit surprised if they relied on JW to provide their drugs when they'd presumably had their own suppliers when he wasn't there.

BBM, do we know when he moved back to Kansas City? I know he recently moved into the house he was renting, but it could have been a local move.

PICTURED: Kansas City Chiefs fan whose three friends died in backyard

“According to an interview that Willis gave to the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative's website in 2022, he is the senior principal scientist at the IAVI Neutralizing Antibody Center in Kansas City.”

We have no idea who provided the drugs. It’ll come out eventually.

 

[sprightly]

Some people (not here, but elsewhere on the internet) seem to desperately want this to be a story full of intrigue and dastardly deeds instead of ... a tragic and sadly common everyday occurrence. This is turning out to be exactly what it looked like from the start: pretty basic all-American guys -- not whatever scary image your mind conjures up when you hear "addicts" and probably not even addicts at all -- partying after a football game and unwittingly consuming a lethal amount of fentanyl. Whatever JW did or didn't do, he didn't tie them down and cram fentanyl-laced cocaine into their nostrils one by one and then drag them outside and force one into a lawn chair.

I guess his going to rehab could be a ploy, but I also feel like waking up to three of my friends dead would be a massive wakeup call. I hope he gets the help he needs, both for addiction and for his mental health.

 

[arielilane]

I would be surprised if there are any charges brought against JW the previous renter. Unless of course there is evidence he forced or provided the drugs (cut the drugs himself), causing the demise of the three young men. Done with malice.

This is a terrible tragedy and unfortunately it is all too common nowadays that lives are lost because of drugs. What makes this one different is there are three men who died together in a chemist’s yard, and the renter's story is strange. But, the end result is the same... death.

It’s an unfortunate sad true story for their families, and for all involved. It is all too common that young lives are lost because of drugs. It is so scary because you think your kids are safe, away from drugs, once they start working, having a family, etc. No! Not always. There is the stress of life, and some may choose drugs, and then there is the risk of the drug being cut with something- most of the time, it is? Right? Idk.

A mistake can cost a person their life, and these men unfortunately may have (not saying they did) used poor judgment that night.

Choose your friends carefully? Your life depends on it.

I dont take the subject lightly so forgive me if it reads that way.

My thoughts only.

 

[fsngruv]

If you are a user and prefer to buy only fentanyl how does a layperson who plans on using it know whether or not what they have is okay to use or dangerous?

I really don't know. My friend traveled from pain pills, to heroin, to fentanyl and sadly passed shortly after, we presume. He was on heroin for a very long time before moving to fentanyl. So, I seriously doubt a lay person could use it and know what they have is okay. I don't even think common users would know that, it's just a risk they are taking. My friend would go after the strong stuff. He joked one time about hearing about an OD and wanting to go find the stuff the person who OD used. Sad stuff.

 

[Anna-lytical]

When it comes to hard drugs like cocaine and opioids everyone who takes them know they are strictly regulated. They know there is an extreme risk in taking street drugs but they do it anyway. I think the drug use of the deceased individuals was buried by family members who offered them up as hard working men who would never do anything to compromise their families' wellbeing yet that's exactly what they did. Everyone who took drugs that fateful day took them voluntarily. Which is why in many ways I think trying to find the source of the drugs in this particular case is a mugs game. Does it lessen the crime if it turns out to be one of the deceased? Does it make it more of a crime if the one who provided it survived? That's a moral dilemma not a legal one, in my opinion.

Hi everyone - Long time reader, first time poster. I've been so interested in this case and like so many thought that fentanyl was the probable CoD from the beginning. I was at first baffled by the speculation and accusations thrown out against JW, but as the poster above mentions- family members are often in denial or may want to cover up to protect their loved one's memory. It is very probable that one of the three deceased brought the drugs and used them together after JW had passed out or gone to bed from excessive drinking. Or- JW may or may not have partook in the drugs as well and survived by obtaining less of the F in his dose or by remaining inside. We don't know what he has gone to rehab for but it is a positive step toward health regardless of the initial motive.

Unfortunately, I've lost a few family members to alcoholism and one to an opiate/fentanyl OD. Some family members don't want to believe their loved one is an addict, some addicts hide their problems with substances well (for a while) and with any addiction - you want more and more of the substance - thereby one day killing yourself - sometimes quickly and sometimes slowly. Addicts aren't thinking rationally; they are physically addicted to the substance and mentally obsessed with getting that next high.

The deceased may have been recreational users of illegal drugs or may have struggled with addiction. At the end of the day, their choices did end their lives. And I pass no judgment - it is just very sad.

 

[MyBelle]

Do keep in mind that 5th guy was, apparently, a drug dealer - at least as reported in MSM, he has a record. And yes, they could have used fentanyl separately. I've known people to add in opiates to a night of doing coke, because they realize they are never going to "come down" and sleep (and they may have work the next day plus they don't want their families to know they're wired, so they use an opiate to "down" themselves).

Those details will be interesting to know/find out. It was the fentanyl that killed them, IMO. 10 mg is 5x what the novice user can overdose with. (See my earlier post and that link). In that article it states that 2 mg would look approximately like 5-7 grains of salt. If a person is used to snorting coke, that would seem like "nothing."

I need to find the article that gives the toxicology data (I can't find it anywhere this morning).

BBM. The 5th guy also came toward the end of the game or after it was over, didn't he?

The other four men watched the game, and all had been drinking heavily for hours. Does cocaine help with alertness in any way? Those three guys had to drive home, and DUI is still very illegal.

JMO

 

[stormymama]

I agree the supplier could indeed be charged. But until LE tell us JW was the supplier I am viewing him as a man who lost three friends and who himself could have died from the same drugs but for the grace of God.

We can't really treat JW as POI because police haven't done so as yet.

Agreed. I would say JW’s actions and explanations of his actions after the get-together are less suspicious and more unreliable. After all, he was under the influence of …something. JMO

 

[10ofRods]

I’ve been wondering the same thing.

They injected into me via IV, so yes. I'm sure it's in solution when used for that purpose.

I believe all opiates can be made into injectables. Heroin users have been doing it for more than a century.

IMO. Morphine, ditto.

 

[NovaBeans]

I'm still not clear on why dealers would put fentanyl in any other drug - is it to make the other drug more potent thereby having to use less of the more expensive drug?

I had the same question and from what I found, it's to make it more addictive. Relatively speaking, cocaine isn't as addictive and is less lucrative so by adding fentanyl you can get them hooked on opioids which is more profitable.

 

[NCWatcher]

The one thing I keep questioning in my mind is if it was in their cocaine supply, why didn't they use their coke earlier? Wouldn't they want it earlier to "enjoy" the evening? Would they have to take both cocaine and fentanyl at the same time or could they have taken the fentanyl later to come down before heading home?

It's possible the 5th person coming over was a surprise or maybe he stayed longer than expected. Maybe they waited until he left to use the drugs (assuming what was used was cocaine laced with fentanyl.) Maybe someone thought there wasn't enough to share with Person #5, or maybe Person #5 really doesn't use anymore (his record reported in the MSM was from years ago, I believe), or maybe there was some reason to mistrust Person #5. I believe he came to the gathering around 7pm and left around midnight. So the idea he was the supplier wouldn't explain why the drugs would have been used late at night. I doubt he'd have waited until he read leaving at midnight to pull the drugs out....
MOO

 

[10ofRods]

BBM. The 5th guy also came toward the end of the game or after it was over, didn't he?

The other four men watched the game, and all had been drinking heavily for hours. Does cocaine help with alertness in any way? Those three guys had to drive home, and DUI is still very illegal.

JMO

They ALL came after the game was over, according to everything I'm reading. The 3 friends arrived just after the game was over (time for celebration!) Then the fifth guy came over somewhat later.

Cocaine *does* help with alertness/acuity. My first study of the drug was among surgical residents and surgeons at a major hospital (and I have interviewed other doctors who specialize in the treatment of cocaine-addicted doctors). Indeed, many of these doctors continued to use under supervision of other doctors (cocaine is, after all, a prescribable drug). It's schedule II.

I don't think the four men watched the game together (they may have watched segments of it that were recorded, of course). I've known many people at parties where they did a bump right before going out the door to drive, actually.

If your theory is right, then the men probably didn't know their coke was laced with fentanyl (in which case it is indeed question about who brought it, when it began to be used, etc - maybe they did several lines of coke at around midnight - and it was laced with tiny amounts of fentanyl - either through cross-contamination by drug dealers packaging and weighing or for some other purpose).

So many weird things to think about - but fentanyl is definitely a major death-dealer in the US.