MO MO - Jessica Runions, 21, Kansas City, 8 Sept 2016 #2

[Jabarn]

Well, darn. Sorry about that. I can completely understand the rationale though. Feels like there's a road block at every turn with this case :banghead:

Trying to understand why the documents associated with this case are being sealed. My hope is there is key evidence that needs to be protected. Is that enough grounds?

 

[Vail]

Trying to understand why the documents associated with this case are being sealed. My hope is there is key evidence that needs to be protected. Is that enough grounds?

I'm speculating but typically it is to protect a witness or keep key evidence from the media that could compromise them from finding the perp. Because KY is such a pariah it may also be to avoid change of venue (though any smart defense lawyer is going to ask for one anyway.) I think it is a combination of things here, especially if they think he had help and that person is not in custody, and because there could be information in this case that pertains to Kara's investigation also.

 

[Scout87]

Trying to understand why the documents associated with this case are being sealed. My hope is there is key evidence that needs to be protected. Is that enough grounds?

Yes, I'd say it's enough grounds. It's been surmised that a juvenile may have been arrested with KY or have been involved in transporting him in some way. In most cases I've seen with that aspect, they only seal a portion of the records but it is possible this is the reason. I'd personally say that this case was sealed for the safety of those who may have come forward to the police as witnesses as well as a means of persuading people to talk. There's still enough possibility at this point that this dirtbag may walk on the arson charges. I doubt it will happen as the circumstantial evidence is so strong combined with whatever hard evidence like DNA or trace evidence LE may have. But I've said it here before, we see way more than a jury will about KY's past and character, and you just never can tell what a jury will do. I'd also be very nervous to talk to police if I knew my name wouldn't be protected. Also, cases are sealed due to media speculation and I think this one was sealed in part for that as well. The mainstream news in the KC area jumped on this case like fleas on a dog, but they were shut up just about as fast as they started. Once that search warrant went out to the media, it seemed to be shut down. I assume that LE and the courts were eager to put a lid on any kind of media circus. Reading this back myself, I realize I tend to ramble, sorry about that

 

[Jabarn]

Thanks, Scout and Vail. I was trying to understand the reason behind the sealed documents and that does help. As far as the legality, I am not sure though, unless there is a minor involved, but couldn't parts be retracted if that were the case? What are your thoughts on sealing documents to stop a media circus? Is that justifiable? I am trying to understand because that is one of the reasons given for why an outside search group with lots of expertise can't be called in. I ramble too, Scout, but I have all questions. Sorry!

 

[Scout87]

I'm speculating but typically it is to protect a witness or keep key evidence from the media that could compromise them from finding the perp. Because KY is such a pariah it may also be to avoid change of venue (though any smart defense lawyer is going to ask for one anyway.) I think it is a combination of things here, especially if they think he had help and that person is not in custody, and because there could be information in this case that pertains to Kara's investigation also.

I hadn't considered info pertaining to Kara in this case...good thinking. I've been thinking they may have to change venues regardless here though...At least to somewhere like St.Louis, maybe not quite as far but not around the KC Metro area. Regardless of this case being sealed KY is already pretty notorious in these parts because of Kara and his other activities don't help his reputation either. It will be hard to find an untainted jury for him. Then again, if a defense attorney were to be as wily as their defendant, they may see this all as well as any media speculation as an avenue for a mistrial or the only means to get a not guilty from a jury. This is what the defense for Jodi Arias seemed to go with on what seemed to be an almost daily basis.

 

[Vail]

Well, his drug case was also sealed until he was indicted, with parts still sealed that likely include medical information. I think Scout has it right here, there is indication he had help and that person is under 18 (I don't think we can say much more than that for now). If his ex, who has an active order of protection on him, supplied witness statements, they would also have to seal it for that reason.

 

[Scout87]

Thanks, Scout and Vail. I was trying to understand the reason behind the sealed documents and that does help. As far as the legality, I am not sure though, unless there is a minor involved, but couldn't parts be retracted if that were the case? What are your thoughts on sealing documents to stop a media circus? Is that justifiable? I am trying to understand because that is one of the reasons given for why an outside search group with lots of expertise can't be called in. I ramble too, Scout, but I have all questions. Sorry!

That's what I was trying to find when I responded to your first question about the sealing. I think if a minor were involved, those parts pertaining to him/her would just be sealed for protection of the minor. I did dig up this article on the freeway shootings case in Arizona from the beginning of the year. Prosecutors wanted to seal the case due to media speculation and possible contamination of the jury pool due to that http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...--10-phoenix-freeway-shootings-case/79470418/

 

[Jabarn]

Well, his drug case was also sealed until he was indicted, with parts still sealed that likely include medical information. I think Scout has it right here, there is indication he had help and that person is under 18 (I don't think we can say much more than that for now). If his ex, who has an active order of protection on him, supplied witness statements, they would also have to seal it for that reason.

This provides a ray of hope justice is moving forward and Jessica's family won't have to wait years like Kara's. Also, thanks to you and Scout, Vail. It is so frustrating to me- I can't even imagine what the families are going through.

 

[Scout87]

This provides a ray of hope justice is moving forward and Jessica's family won't have to wait years like Kara's. Also, thanks to you and Scout, Vail. It is so frustrating to me- I can't even imagine what the families are going through.

Ok, I found this link from the Federal Judicial Center: http://www2.fjc.gov/sites/default/files/2012/Sealing_Guide.pdf If you don't mind a little reading, I feel this is a good source that gives a good run down on various amendments involved in court proceedings, the public right of access and common law, and reasons why a case may be sealed. There's also some info here on records that may be confidential (go to 8.02 Definitions) https://www.courts.mo.gov/courts/Cl...88b749ed381eeac08625769d006dede7?OpenDocument After reading all that, I'd say this may have more to do with the potential involvement of a juvenille or the protection of key witnesses. As far as I have seen, cases like this are rarely sealed this early due to the media, though I'm sure that reason could have been a motivating factor as well. Mental health records are also often sealed, and we've discussed here several times about KY's mental history and diagnoses. That may play a part as well, though I'd say probably not as large as the rest.

 

[Scout87]

Thank you - though I feel like I'm mostly just grasping at straws, throwing whatever I find out there and hoping something will lead us somewhere. Seeing the forest for the trees is a little difficult with this case. This is as you said consuming, I can't remember the last time I felt so invested in case. Maybe not since Caylee Anthony. The more I look at pictures of that cave area, the more it interests me, and I'm drawn to the cemetery area you have mentioned as well. Both look pretty easily accessible. It looks like it wouldn't take much to get back into the park/cave area very late after dark without anyone noticing. I didn't realize until looking closer today that it's actually at William Klein nature park, it has camping areas, a pond and trails, and wooded areas with historic ruins and the cave on site with tours. That may have been something that would have turned KY off from that area, because it is set up for the public and open year round. The chimney areas in particular draw my eye, but maybe just because of the historical aspect. I'd still say that given it's proximity to where KY was living, it needs to be searched. http://cavespringpark.com/current-river-cavern/ http://cavespring.org/

By the time I figured this out, it was too late to edit my post so I'm doing this way. The first link I added in the above post (http://cavespringpark.com/current-river-cavern) is not related to Cave Spring/William Klein Park located at Gregory Boulevard in KCMO near the grandfather's house. That one is in Van Buren, MO almost 4 hours away. :facepalm: Sorry about that everyone

 

[folieadeuxnola]

I have been at a few of the Sunday searches and we searched all through the Kernoodle Lake area on one of them. Freshly mowed paths around most of it, almost as if law enforcement had been there too.

Rayf can you say the other area searches you have participated in?

It is great to see you volunteer the time to aid in the search for Jessica applaud you for your efforts :loveyou:

 

[Elle*Bee]

I just turned on the TV to find an episode of "Vanished with Beth Holloway" from 2011 featuring Kara Kopetsky. Watching Beth interview Kara's parents is heart wrenching. I hope both Jessica and Kara find justice.

 

[Jabarn]

Ok, I found this link from the Federal Judicial Center: http://www2.fjc.gov/sites/default/files/2012/Sealing_Guide.pdf If you don't mind a little reading, I feel this is a good source that gives a good run down on various amendments involved in court proceedings, the public right of access and common law, and reasons why a case may be sealed. There's also some info here on records that may be confidential (go to 8.02 Definitions) https://www.courts.mo.gov/courts/Cl...88b749ed381eeac08625769d006dede7?OpenDocument After reading all that, I'd say this may have more to do with the potential involvement of a juvenille or the protection of key witnesses. As far as I have seen, cases like this are rarely sealed this early due to the media, though I'm sure that reason could have been a motivating factor as well. Mental health records are also often sealed, and we've discussed here several times about KY's mental history and diagnoses. That may play a part as well, though I'd say probably not as large as the rest.

Thank you so much. With the case files being sealed, it presents a two way street. Evidence (is there any?) is protected. I get there may be a juvenile involved. On the other hand, if there is no evidence to protect, it forfeits the right for the public and those searching to hold the investigation accountable.

 

[Scout87]

Thank you so much. With the case files being sealed, it presents a two way street. Evidence (is there any?) is protected. I get there may be a juvenile involved. On the other hand, if there is no evidence to protect, it forfeits the right for the public and those searching to hold the investigation accountable.

My thoughts exactly. I started thinking earlier that this is essentially two cases - one for the arson, the other a missing persons investigation that may very well lead to kidnapping charges at the least, or at the most a murder 1 charge/capital punishment case. Prosecution may choose to move on those later charges sooner than we know even if JR is not found, if a guilty comes through on the arson and if enough concrete evidence can be accumulated. It would be risky, and I think shouldn't be done unless the evidence is absolutely without a shadow of a doubt there. But then again, a jury can be provided with several options in deciding guilt even if the charge is capital murder. Anyway, my point is maybe the sealing happened not because of any of the reasons we discussed. Perhaps one was sealed simply to protect the integrity of the other. I really still feel that media has something to with it too. Media speculation this early on before a murder charge is even brought by prosecutors is dangerous as it knocks the door wide open for a defense attorney to move for a mistrial due to potential jury tainting, media tampering, etc. Even with a murder a charge, it's risky. Remember, innocent until proven guilty, even if evidence is like a big red flashing sign beating you over the head. Even if found guilty of murder due to overwhelming evidence, KY would have every right to appeal for a mistrial on those grounds and say he wasn't afforded a fair trial, and then the trial process could start all over again for him, the prosecutor, the family (also why I think a change of venue will have to happen). Still, as you said, it is a double edged sword as it forfeits the public's right of access afforded by the First Amendment. We just have to trust that all parties involved at legal and governmental levels are doing their due diligence to ensure justice is served to the fullest extent of the law. I respect 100% the public's right to access (I want to know what's going on!), but there are times that the media just turns into a three ring circus and interferes with the due process of the law.

 

[Scout87]

I just turned on the TV to find an episode of "Vanished with Beth Holloway" from 2011 featuring Kara Kopetsky. Watching Beth interview Kara's parents is heart wrenching. I hope both Jessica and Kara find justice.

I saw that also. Kara's parents have been so consistently courageous and outspoken in their attempts to find their daughter over the years. The news video with Jessica's mother a few nights ago was heart breaking as well. I have no personal connection to this case, but it makes me emotional just thinking how desperate she is to have her girl home, and how brave and unwavering she has been through everything. I admire the strength of both of these mother's. They both deserve answers and I don't think KY is willing to give them that. Whatever his psychological makeup, he is a monster. Selfish, self-serving...He has inflicted so much pain and suffering on so many people. I don't understand how a person can have that much anger and hate in them. As we keep asking questions and trying to find answers here, let's please also pray for these families that they can find peace and some kind of closure in the coming months as this case unfolds.

 

[Scout87]

Just occurred to me also after thinking over that link I posted earlier on case sealing...The search warrants included addresses of the homes searched, which further leads me to believe that the warrants may have played a part in the sealing of the case. Plus media coverage seemed to have been pretty much shut out directly after the warrants were released to the public. LE would have seen how fast media jumped on those warrants, and reporters were out in front of the grandfather's house for a long time the day the warrant was executed. It seemed like they were outside while the house was being searched, and they stayed out there until the grandfather returned, and then also stayed after that, so more than an hour or two. There's footage from several parts of the day while LE was inside the home searching. They were like vultures just waiting for any little bit of info. I realize that KY's grandpa willingly showed the media the warrant receipt, but he may have just done so because he thought they'd go away if he gave them some info...If I remember the video right, he was standing on the walkway outside his home when showing the receipt to a reporter, so it was like he'd barely been able to get home and get his key in the door before they were in his space wanting answers. The prospect of Kylr in jail for what he's there for, the possibility Kylr committed murder, on top of the warrant, all the press, ransacked house from the warrant...That would be stressful for anyone. And some people just have a hard time saying no when confronted like that on top of everything else going on. Maybe he asked LE to step in and put a stop to all that, then with everyone else who might have come forward wanting to be protected, they decided to just seal the case. Easier to just seal an entire case than it is to seal individual records when the majority of the records are going to be sealed anyway for witness safety and to keep the media out. Thoughts?

 

[Argus]

New here...and although I've read many of your thoughtful comments I'm still a little "fuzzy" on some details:

1. Where was KY's work located when he turned up that Friday morning and they sent him home for being in bad shape?
2. What time did he get there?
3. Do you know how he got there? Drove JR's car? Got a ride?

I'm located on the Kansas side of the KC Metro area and was wondering if any thought had been given to searching this side of State Line. Going off a previous post it was suggested to expand search area to 30 minutes to an hour of party location. With our highway system and in the wee hours of the morning when traffic is slow it would be very easy to cross the state line in that time frame. I ask about this because grandfather AY responded to a reporter when asked if KY was working at a tattoo parlor he said "no" he worked on the Kansas side doing something with car bumpers. KY strikes me as the type of guy who would be finding sporadic work at "off the grid" auto shops or salvage yards which would be in more less traveled areas/light industrial areas and might be worth checking out. Has this thought already been discounted?

 

[folieadeuxnola]

:bump: in the search for Jessica :bump:

 

[Jabarn]

New here...and although I've read many of your thoughtful comments I'm still a little "fuzzy" on some details:

1. Where was KY's work located when he turned up that Friday morning and they sent him home for being in bad shape?
2. What time did he get there?
3. Do you know how he got there? Drove JR's car? Got a ride?

I'm located on the Kansas side of the KC Metro area and was wondering if any thought had been given to searching this side of State Line. Going off a previous post it was suggested to expand search area to 30 minutes to an hour of party location. With our highway system and in the wee hours of the morning when traffic is slow it would be very easy to cross the state line in that time frame. I ask about this because grandfather AY responded to a reporter when asked if KY was working at a tattoo parlor he said "no" he worked on the Kansas side doing something with car bumpers. KY strikes me as the type of guy who would be finding sporadic work at "off the grid" auto shops or salvage yards which would be in more less traveled areas/light industrial areas and might be worth checking out. Has this thought already been discounted?

I hope nothing has been discounted; after Jessica was last seen, there was enough time to go anywhere outside the location of the get together, and from where KY was living with his grandpa, and from the burn site. That is a huge amount of territory. I am not convinced he had it in him to travel too far away from familiar territory, but who knows but him? What would be the easiest thing to do? Dumpster? What are the landfills in the area?

 

[Vail]

I hope nothing has been discounted; after Jessica was last seen, there was enough time to go anywhere outside the location of the get together, and from where KY was living with his grandpa, and from the burn site. That is a huge amount of territory. I am not convinced he had it in him to travel too far away from familiar territory, but who knows but him? What would be the easiest thing to do? Dumpster? What are the landfills in the area?

Dumpster isn't his style and is too risky. KY seems like the type that needs to be in control of the entire process. If he dumped her anywhere with an ephemeral destination it was into one of the many rivers he had to choose from IMO.