MO MO - Jessica Runions, 21, Kansas City, 8 Sept 2016 #2

[GigTu]

If she died in the car, and was buried before the car was burned, could cadaver dogs still pick up the scent?

 

[Scout87]

If she died in the car, and was buried before the car was burned, could cadaver dogs still pick up the scent?

That's a really good question. I've read that cadaver dogs can detect when a dead body was only in a place for about ten minutes (based on testing that was done over time). And then there are some that some are trained to smell under water and some can detect a body up to 30 feet under ground. I'd say it wouldn't be out of the question for a dog to detect that a dead body was in the car before it was burned, but that's just speculation.

 

[NewMama]

So this is going to be really morbid but I'm naturally curious so I looked this up. Cremation is carried out at temps between 1400 and 1800 Fahrenheit, leaving bone fragments and skeletal remains. http://www.cremationresource.org/cremation/how-is-a-body-cremated.html The ignition temperature of gasoline (assuming that's what KY used to burn the car) is between 475 and 536 degrees Fahrenheit. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-ignition-temperatures-d_171.html So, based on that if a body was in that car when it was set on fire {shudder}, it's very likely that bone fragments would have been found.

Yes, I found this out the hard way. My oldest was 1 when my mother passed. When the funeral home delivered the urn I let my daughter hold it for a sec and she shook it. There was some rattling. I couldn't sleep for a week.


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[folieadeuxnola]

Went through a cremation a few months back, the remains were a gritty white powder not as fine as sand but close. Burning in a car with gasoline maybe a different outcome. Recall that the suv was partially burned in turn there maybe trace evidence i.e. Blood fluids etc left behind.

 

[Vail]

Just clarifying that I meant her deceased body was placed in the car at one point to transport it, or she was killed in it beforehand, not that she was in it when he burned it (LE has already said she was not in it).

I don't think cadaver dogs can pick up a scent once the scene has been burned, but maybe it depends on the dog?

 

[folieadeuxnola]

Just clarifying that I meant her deceased body was placed in the car at one point to transport it, or she was killed in it beforehand, not that she was in it when he burned it (LE has already said she was not in it).

I don't think cadaver dogs can pick up a scent once the scene has been burned, but maybe it depends on the dog?

No I do not believe JR was in the car that would have been made evident well early on. If I'm not mistaken cadaver dogs were brought out and searched the area close to the SUV do not believe anything was picked up.

 

[Lost mittens]

M


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[Scout87]

Just clarifying that I meant her deceased body was placed in the car at one point to transport it, or she was killed in it beforehand, not that she was in it when he burned it (LE has already said she was not in it). I don't think cadaver dogs can pick up a scent once the scene has been burned, but maybe it depends on the dog?

I don't think she was in the car either. I'm primarily interested in what a cadaver dog could find, say if KY buried her deep in the ground, or she's in water, or there was another burn location. In what circumstances would a cadaver dog be able to detect the scent of death...From this article: http://www.prsar.org/cadaver-dogs.html "the K9 needs to be trained in a large variety of size and scope of human remains (large to small, new to aged) that are burned, buried and/or submerged in water...Bodies that are buried, dis-articulated from predators, submerged in water, hidden in vehicles or structures have been located successfully by Cadaver / HRD dog teams...But Cadaver/HRD Teams do not work miracles, and there are times when odor is not present at the time the K9 was working the area even though remains were near." I cannot get the other site I was looking at to link for some reason, but it states that these dogs are trained to also detect the location at which a corpse or body parts may have been stored by tracking down residual scents, even if the body was not in the location for more than a few minutes they can still detect the residual scent of death. Other dogs are trained to detect the scent of narcotics or explosives and fire departments that suspect a fire was arson can use dogs to detect the use of an accelerant. Depending on how badly the car was burned and how long Jessica was inside, a dog may have been able to pick up the residual scent of death or beginnings of decomposition. As far as I know, LE only found that an accelerant was used and has said that no remains were found at the scene of the crime and that no residual scents were picked up. This says to me that Kylr probably disposed of the body between midnight when they left the party and 2 am when he started texting other people trying to pull together an alibi. This would also suggest that she may be closer to the location of the party, or somewhere closer to that area or halfway between there and the burn site and grandpa's home. I would also suggest that there was no blood spatter or other evidence typically found in a crime scene as cadaver dogs are trained to pick up on those things as well, and that KY may have burned the car simply because he ran out of time and didn't have any better ideas. He couldn't drive it any long distance after she was reported missing as a description of her car and license plate number would have been put out by LE.

 

[Vail]

https://www.facebook.com/events/714192912066321/ Upcoming search event posted on Facebook.

I looking at the similar Typhanie Johnson case, where LE are searching extensively with a lot of media coverage, I have to hope that KCPD have enough at this point to warrant their silence and lack of public appeal.

ETA if her family or JM reads here, I just want you to know we are doing everything in our limited means to help you find Jessica and get to the truth.:loveyou:

 

[Jabarn]

The last person known to have seen Jessica is sitting in jail for burning up her car. His mugshot shows flash burns that aged him. He is still sitting waiting for the next hearing. He is used to being in jail. He can hold out. The reason he burned her car had to be there was evidence he wanted to hide. Right?

 

[Vail]

I've been thinking about the path they drove after leaving the party. Do you think they took Blue River Rd. to be scenic, or went East to get on 49?

 

[Scout87]

The last person known to have seen Jessica is sitting in jail for burning up her car. His mugshot shows flash burns that aged him. He is still sitting waiting for the next hearing. He is used to being in jail. He can hold out. The reason he burned her car had to be there was evidence he wanted to hide. Right?

I think that it could be one of two things. He either ran out of time and got scared someone would see him driving the car after JR was reported missing (and also doesn't think very well on his feet) or there was evidence in the car that he thought needed to be destroyed. That could have been major evidence like blood or other body fluids, hair, whatever...but I'm starting to lean toward the idea that he at least feared there might have been something in the car that could link him to JR's disappearance...as if all the other circumstantial evidence wasn't enough :doh: The search warrant for the trailer in Edwards sought evidence of an accelerant. The use of an accelerant is what tells me that whatever was in that car he wanted gone and he wanted it gone fast. Most of what I've read says that most cars will burn in 45-60 minutes without the use of an accelerant. I'm curious as to what he used. I assume gasoline, but then I figure that he'd have to transport a gas can.

 

[Scout87]

I've been thinking about the path they drove after leaving the party. Do you think they took Blue River Rd. to be scenic, or went East to get on 49?

Assuming that they went straight from the party to the grandfather's house, it looks like they could have gone Harry Truman Drive to Raytown Road to get back to E 87th and Crescent Ave, or gone from Jackson Ave to Blue Ridge Boulevard to get onto I-470 going back to KCMO. OR, they could have gone in the opposite direction from the party to E Blue Ridge Blvd and followed it to turn onto Blue River Road. There's also several other options, they had many to choose from. I'm starting to think that they didn't go straight from the party back to KCMO though. I think they may have stopped somewhere along the way, or he convinced her to pull over somewhere.

 

[Ayashley]

So this is going to be really morbid but I'm naturally curious so I looked this up. Cremation is carried out at temps between 1400 and 1800 Fahrenheit, leaving bone fragments and skeletal remains. http://www.cremationresource.org/cremation/how-is-a-body-cremated.html The ignition temperature of gasoline (assuming that's what KY used to burn the car) is between 475 and 536 degrees Fahrenheit. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-ignition-temperatures-d_171.html So, based on that if a body was in that car when it was set on fire {shudder}, it's very likely that bone fragments would have been found.

I think that it could be one of two things. He either ran out of time and got scared someone would see him driving the car after JR was reported missing (and also doesn't think very well on his feet) or there was evidence in the car that he thought needed to be destroyed. That could have been major evidence like blood or other body fluids, hair, whatever...but I'm starting to lean toward the idea that he at least feared there might have been something in the car that could link him to JR's disappearance...as if all the other circumstantial evidence wasn't enough :doh: The search warrant for the trailer in Edwards sought evidence of an accelerant. The use of an accelerant is what tells me that whatever was in that car he wanted gone and he wanted it gone fast. Most of what I've read says that most cars will burn in 45-60 minutes without the use of an accelerant. I'm curious as to what he used. I assume gasoline, but then I figure that he'd have to transport a gas can.

Anyone know what accelerant you'd need to use to get a car fire up to the degree they'd need for bones to cremate?


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[Vail]

Anyone know what accelerant you'd need to use to get a car fire up to the degree they'd need for bones to cremate?


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http://www.interfire.org/res_file/aec_20ig.asp

 

[Scout87]

Anyone know what accelerant you'd need to use to get a car fire up to the degree they'd need for bones to cremate? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This link discusses vehicle fires. http://www.waltersforensic.com/articles/fire_investigation/vol3-no1.htm It states that in the beginning stages of an accidental fire temperatures can reach 400 degrees Fahrenheit while during the second stage, free burning, temperatures can rise to 1700 degrees or more. If an accelerant is added, temperatures will obviously rise faster. The link I posted on cremation earlier states that it occurs at temps between 1400 and 1800 degrees. It wouldn't have been convenient for KY to use a gas can, but he could have. Or maybe he lit a match and threw it in the fuel tank. If the tank was maybe half full or less, it would have provided enough air to create a significant fire very quickly.

 

[TabathaD]

Sorry, I missed the above post.

 

[Ayashley]

So quiet here all of a sudden !!


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[folieadeuxnola]

So quiet here all of a sudden !!


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A bit slower, guess just waiting for more details

:bump: for Jessica

 

[Scout87]

So quiet here all of a sudden !! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It'll probably pick up a bit more around the 31st with the next court date, though I really doubt anything new will come from that besides another date, maybe talk of jury selection or trial. Other than that, I think we're on our own to come up with ideas since the case is sealed. I wish there was more to go on.