GUILTY MO - Tyler Dasher, 1, Affton, 15 Nov 2011 - #2

[gitana1]

Make sure to watch the whole video. It's nearly 30 minutes long.
The bf, he's not lying. He is a straight shooter. moo

I agree. I don't see any indication of deception at all. No shifting eyes, no odd body language, no deceptive speech patterns, nothing. He may share traits of people posters know who are losers but I don't think he's a loser at all. Seems like a normal, baffled kid trying to understand.

He seemed to be aware of what somewhat normal parenting skills look like. He remembered things many men that age do not, like how Shelby parented the child compared with how his sisters parent their kids. How she handled teething, or messy eating, etc.

He is Hispanic and many, many Hispanic men are very involved in child rearing and love little kids, much more than say a young man at that age from another ethnic background. In other words, they do not mind having a kid around them, they enjoy helping girlfriends out with the baby. They don't mind the child sleeping over.

Think of casey anthony's one boyfriend who allowed Caylee to spend the night and sleep in his bed as opposed to Anthony Lazarro who was fond of Caylee but was opposed to having her spend the night and really just wanted to be a free young adult without a child around to worry about.

Hispanic men don't tend to be that way. In their culture, children are a part of daily life. There is no compartmentalization. In other words, kids don't stay with sitters. If there is a wedding or quinceanera, babies and small children attend. So young men from that demographic tend to be a bit more cognizant of the needs of babies, than others young men.

I think this young man is credible. He was aware of how Shelby acted with her son and found nothing disturbing about it. He enjoyed Tyler and saw no reason why Shelby would have wanted to get rid of him.

I think Shelby fooled a lot of people. I think she hid her true feelings about Tyler from her friends. But I think her mom may have had just a bit of an inkling more. I don't think grandma could have anticipated something like this, but she saw more of the reality of Shelby and Shelby's feelings. Thus, she came home and immediately fell to the ground in the driveway when she got the call that Tyler was missing. I think, in that moment, it came together for her and she knew that Shelby was likely involved.

I am curious though. He confirms that Grandma was in the house. Is it possible that she didn't hear him or Shelby assaulting him? What do you all think? I'm pondering this hard.

I really believe that Shelby killed Tyler after grandma left the house for work.

I agree.. I'm sure she's just trying to do something nice for another baby.. I don't think id want it.. Just saying

Yes, but it is not going to a particular baby. I wouldn't want it either. But it is going to a crisis center that desperately needs supplies. It is morbid and I would not want my baby in that crib. But no one is really going to know. The babies sure won't, poor things. Cribs are expensive. They can probably really use it, murder scene or not.

I think that Grandma probably heard the baby waking up as she was leaving for work. She knew he needed to be changed and given a bottle. I doubt that she would leave for work with a baby crying and a sleeping mother. So I think it is most likely that she went to Mom's room and asked her to please wake up and take care of Tyler. That may have been the trigger, imo. :rose:

Bingo. I think grandma might have had it out with Shelby on a few occasions about this. Poor grandma working her tail off while her lazy daughter has a lovely lie in and her precious grandson is left to be ignored, crying, in the crib.

Someone had to bring in the income in that house to maintain it. Whatever Shelby got from SSI and welfare surely was not enough. Yet, Shelby couldn't even get off her behind and care for her crying child while grandma got up at 6:30 to get to her job. I am betting there were a few rows in that house about such situations. Hence, Shelby wanting to get out of Afton as soon as possible.

It makes me think back. I remember my friend's mom telling her, when she became pregnant at 16, "You want to have and keep this baby? Fine, but you will get no help from me. You get a job. You figure out how to support him. You want to party? Hire your own babysitter. I won't be taking care of him. You want to continue living here and you will continue to do all your chores along with caring for your baby." One day, the mother came home and found that my friend had still not done the dishes. I had been with the friend all day and knew she had been very busy with the baby. Grandma didn't care and tore her a new one. At the time (at age 17), I thought grandma was so darn mean. I felt differently when I matured a bit.

Her daughter got government -funded housing for herself and her son. She got her GED. She got a full time job at the chamber of commerce. She cared for her son herself with no child support from dead beat and no food stamps or welfare monies.

She made mistakes. In retrospect, she was not the fantastic, mature mother she later was when she had children as an adult, with her husband. But, she didn't abuse her kid. She didn't beat her son to death.

Years later, I told her mom how much I respected her attitude and how she dealt with her daughter's teen pregnancy. She wouldn't put up with nonsense and it compelled her daughter to strive to do the right thing and to try to put her baby first and her own needs second.

 

[Melanie]

O.M.G. She killed and dumped her baby, texted her boyfriend and then calmly invited him over for breakfast. She set the entire thing up so there would be a witness to her distress.

What a cold-hearted *****.

If I'm to believe the boyfriend, and father (and I have no reason not to), SAD had a lot of support around her. The father seems quite responsible to take control of his disease, yet acknowledge that he would visit his son with his father or mother just in case he was to spiral. That says a lot.

The boyfriend, mother, and friends indicate they were all supportive in caring for Tyler. There's NO reason whatsoever that I can find that she killed this beautiful child. I don't care if he was teething, or that SAD "may" have been sleep deprived - millions of mothers manage to stay awake and cope with this stuff.

IMHO - I think we're looking at someone who is downright evil, and managed to hide it frome everyone around her.

How else can I explain that she texted her boyfriend from her computer and invited him over for breakfast (how convenient). That she mentioned Tyler is still sleeping at 10:30 (usually up at 6:30). Do I think Tyler was dead by then - yup. He was probably already dead in the bushes.

She put a lot of people in front of the bus. The mom, the dad, and set up the boyfriend for her "alibi".

Oh yah - she's evil alright.

MOO

Mel

 

[AlmostGone]

Boys should be raised that way! Maybe that's what's wrong with society! There would be a lot less child abuse going on.

I have a picture of masen wearing wings, maybe I'll put it up later.. He also plays with strollers at nursery in church.. It's funny but he's happy and so sweet..

 

[melissasmom]

It makes me think back. I remember my friend's mom telling her, when she became pregnant at 16, "You want to have and keep this baby? Fine, but you will get no help from me. You get a job. You figure out how to support him. You want to party? Hire your own babysitter. I won't be taking care of him. You want to continue living here and you will continue to do all your chores along with caring for your baby." One day, the mother came home and found that my friend had still not done the dishes. I had been with the friend all day and knew she had been very busy with the baby. Grandma didn't care and tore her a new one. At the time (at age 17), I thought grandma was so darn mean. I felt differently when I matured a bit.

Her daughter got government -funded housing for herself and her son. She got her GED. She got a full time job at the chamber of commerce. She cared for her son herself with no child support from dead beat and no food stamps or welfare monies.

She made mistakes. In retrospect, she was not the fantastic, mature mother she later was when she had children as an adult, with her husband. But, she didn't abuse her kid. She didn't beat her son to death.

Years later, I told her mom how much I respected her attitude and how she dealt with her daughter's teen pregnancy. She wouldn't put up with nonsense and it compelled her daughter to strive to do the right thing and to try to put her baby first and her own needs second.

Thanks for this post. When I think about these young mothers like this, I really DO think that some of what is going on where these girls are abusing or even killing their children, has somewhat to do with not having to take on the whole responsibility for their babies. Now, I do believe that these girls (such as CA, or Emma Barkers mother, also have mental issues, but that's a whole nother story)

I got pregnant with my daughter at age 17. My mother was SO angry. She basically told me to get out, she wasn't going to help me with my baby, I was going to have to deal with it myself. At first it wasn't bad because my boyfriend(father of my child) was 19 and working, so we got an apartment and he supported us while I tried to finish high school. It was kind of like playing house, so I felt ok.

Well, when I was about 8 mos. pregnant, my boyfriend got arrested and was sentenced to a long jail term (drugs, which I was naive enough to have no clue about, I thought when he was gone all night he was cheating on me, but thats also another story lol)

Anyways, it was REALLY rough. I DID have to go on welfare, I was still going to school and I was determined to graduate. The state paid my rent ($190 a month, it was the 80's), my utilities, and every two weeks I got a check for the remainder of my "grant". To this day I remember the amount, it was $37.50. That's what I had to live on.

It was SO hard. My mom wouldnt help me at all. After my daughter was born, I still went to school. The state paid for day care for her, so every day I would load her up in this rusty old pram I had bought at a garage sale then go to school. I obviously had no car. I had money for nothing. That $37.50 barely bought diapers for 2 weeks. I remember trying to go to the bathroom at school instead of at home so I could conserve toilet paper. I felt so bad, my baby had old clothes from garage sales, nothing new. And as for babysitting, well my mom refused, she just wouldn't do it. So definitley no going out with friends. I was so sad for my daughters first Christmas. I was only able to buy her ONE toy, a little bath ball tha cost $3.

Anyways, I'm totally ramblling on, sorry. My point is that I see all these young girls who have babies, and the get the baby showers, live with parents, they get their own car, go out and have fun, etc. and I just feel that they don't know how hard life REALLY is. so when the stressors happen, they can't deal with it. I am not saying people should not provide ANY support for young moms. Everyone needs help, especially new mothers. I just hate how I see young motherhood seemingly glorified the last few years, and it makes me sad, and angry.

Or maybe I'm just a bitter middle-aged woman. :blushing:

JMO

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

I'm just jumping off this post but my son has had a baby doll for about two years.. He will be three in march.. He has bottles and pretends to change the baby.. My feelings are that I want him to have a soft side with baby's like a girl.. Drives the hubby nuts but that's ok..

I did the same thing with my son. At 9 he has the sweetest and gentlest disposition with babies. Heck, we even bought him a play kitchen when he was younger. I want to raise a young man who will know it's not just "woman's work".

 

[AlmostGone]

I did the same thing with my son. At 9 he has the sweetest and gentlest disposition with babies. Heck, we even bought him a play kitchen when he was younger. I want to raise a young man who will know it's not just "woman's work".

Masen has one too.. He plays with it on the porch!

 

[gitana1]

I have a picture of masen wearing wings, maybe I'll put it up later.. He also plays with strollers at nursery in church.. It's funny but he's happy and so sweet..

I'll bet he'll be an incredible, loving father. He might also have it in him to be in medicine or emergency response, like a doctor, nurse, firefighter, EMT. Nurturers are good at those jobs!

Thanks for this post. When I think about these young mothers like this, I really DO think that some of what is going on where these girls are abusing or even killing their children, has somewhat to do with not having to take on the whole responsibility for their babies. Now, I do believe that these girls (such as CA, or Emma Barkers mother, also have mental issues, but that's a whole nother story)

I got pregnant with my daughter at age 17. My mother was SO angry. She basically told me to get out, she wasn't going to help me with my baby, I was going to have to deal with it myself. At first it wasn't bad because my boyfriend(father of my child) was 19 and working, so we got an apartment and he supported us while I tried to finish high school. It was kind of like playing house, so I felt ok.

Well, when I was about 8 mos. pregnant, my boyfriend got arrested and was sentenced to a long jail term (drugs, which I was naive enough to have no clue about, I thought when he was gone all night he was cheating on me, but thats also another story lol)

Anyways, it was REALLY rough. I DID have to go on welfare, I was still going to school and I was determined to graduate. The state paid my rent ($190 a month, it was the 80's), my utilities, and every two weeks I got a check for the remainder of my "grant". To this day I remember the amount, it was $37.50. That's what I had to live on.

It was SO hard. My mom wouldnt help me at all. After my daughter was born, I still went to school. The state paid for day care for her, so every day I would load her up in this rusty old pram I had bought at a garage sale then go to school. I obviously had no car. I had money for nothing. That $37.50 barely bought diapers for 2 weeks. I remember trying to go to the bathroom at school instead of at home so I could conserve toilet paper. I felt so bad, my baby had old clothes from garage sales, nothing new. And as for babysitting, well my mom refused, she just wouldn't do it. So definitley no going out with friends. I was so sad for my daughters first Christmas. I was only able to buy her ONE toy, a little bath ball tha cost $3.

Anyways, I'm totally ramblling on, sorry. My point is that I see all these young girls who have babies, and the get the baby showers, live with parents, they get their own car, go out and have fun, etc. and I just feel that they don't know how hard life REALLY is. so when the stressors happen, they can't deal with it. I am not saying people should not provide ANY support for young moms. Everyone needs help, especially new mothers. I just hate how I see young motherhood seemingly glorified the last few years, and it makes me sad, and angry.

Or maybe I'm just a bitter middle-aged woman. :blushing:

JMO

Darn it! That image of you buying the $3.00 bath ball for your baby made me tear up!!!! It made me feel sorry for the young you, actually, wanting so badly to do more but unable to.

And I agree. There should be some support. But we have come to a place where it's just okay to have babies one cannot care for and sit around while the grandparents take care of things.

I wish you had had a bit more support, though. Look at what a responsible mommy you were. You did whatever you had to for your little girl, with nothing. This beast had it all - tons of support from family and friends, babysitters galore, boyfriend who liked the little kid and didn't mind having him around, the luxury of being able to go to school and not be booted on the street and have to get a job, and most important, a precious, sweet little kid. And what does she do? Wow.

 

[melissasmom]

I'll bet he'll be an incredible, loving father. He might also have it in him to be in medicine or emergency response, like a doctor, nurse, firefighter, EMT. Nurturers are good at those jobs!



Darn it! That image of you buying the $3.00 bath ball for your baby made me tear up!!!! It made me feel sorry for the young you, actually, wanting so badly to do more but unable to.

And I agree. There should be some support. But we have come to a place where it's just okay to have babies one cannot care for and sit around while the grandparents take care of things.

I wish you had had a bit more support, though. Look at what a responsible mommy you were. You did whatever you had to for your little girl, with nothing. This beast had it all - tons of support from family and friends, babysitters galore, boyfriend who liked the little kid and didn't mind having him around, the luxury of being able to go to school and not be booted on the street and have to get a job, and most important, a precious, sweet little kid. And what does she do? Wow.

Awww, gitana1, you are so sweet! It was really hard, but I think everything I had to go through really did make me a stronger person. I learned to appreciate small things and not take anything for granted. And I did have support from my wonderful dad. If it wouldn't have been for him I don't think I would have gotten through my baby's first year, as I honestly had no clue how to take care of an infant. My dad was so awesome with babies, and he showed me what to do with her when she was colicky, how to take care of her when she was sick, stuff like that. He would come over a couple of times a week and those visits were my life saver.

I just don't understand this girl. Was it drugs? Is she just just evil? Is it complete spoiledness that you would beat your precious baby to DEATH because you want to SLEEP? Just so so so sad.

 

[AlmostGone]

I'll bet he'll be an incredible, loving father. He might also have it in him to be in medicine or emergency response, like a doctor, nurse, firefighter, EMT. Nurturers are good at those jobs!



Darn it! That image of you buying the $3.00 bath ball for your baby made me tear up!!!! It made me feel sorry for the young you, actually, wanting so badly to do more but unable to.

And I agree. There should be some support. But we have come to a place where it's just okay to have babies one cannot care for and sit around while the grandparents take care of things.

I wish you had had a bit more support, though. Look at what a responsible mommy you were. You did whatever you had to for your little girl, with nothing. This beast had it all - tons of support from family and friends, babysitters galore, boyfriend who liked the little kid and didn't mind having him around, the luxury of being able to go to school and not be booted on the street and have to get a job, and most important, a precious, sweet little kid. And what does she do? Wow.

Right now his thing is garbage trucks lol.. Yes garbage day you can find us waving to our garbage man..

I just really hope these young mommys have all the support they need...it's real sad

 

[AlmostGone]

As a kid I lived on a farm and had run of 7 acres.. It was the best place ever.. We had a pond, creek and apple trees and a few dogs.. You could play outside with no worries.. Cross streets without worry and say hello to strangers..

Today I try to teach my children stranger danger and I think it's so unfair..

 

[Flutterby80]

---you see LE with the doll at about 1:45 here:

11/16/2011 (KMOV - Tyler Dasher) Police holding dead boy's mother on murder charges - YouTube

---shelby w/ friends---at the recovery site---at the house w/ LE



--image of LE with the doll i grabbed off of a different clip..

Yes!!! Oh thank you thank you I'm NOT crazy! I was sure I'd seen that but hadn't been able to find footage anywhere. So why do you think he has it? If it was evidence, wouldn't it be bagged?

 

[MagnoliaMom]

I think that Grandma probably heard the baby waking up as she was leaving for work. She knew he needed to be changed and given a bottle. I doubt that she would leave for work with a baby crying and a sleeping mother. So I think it is most likely that she went to Mom's room and asked her to please wake up and take care of Tyler. That may have been the trigger, imo. :rose:

This is exactly what I think happened only the part BBM IMO was probably more severe.

No matter what occurred, I imagine the grandmother is heavily burdened with guilt at what she could have done differently. Bless her heart.

 

[Flutterby80]

As a kid I lived on a farm and had run of 7 acres.. It was the best place ever.. We had a pond, creek and apple trees and a few dogs.. You could play outside with no worries.. Cross streets without worry and say hello to strangers..

Today I try to teach my children stranger danger and I think it's so unfair..

ITA. Childhood should be a time when there is no fear, and here we are forced to purposely teach them to be afraid of strangers, afraid of drugs...it makes me so sad. There is a huge part of me that wishes I could pack my son off to some semi-remote spot where fear and stress didn't exist.

 

[LolaMoon08]

I wasn't trying to come down too hard on the boyfriend. I just felt it was really insensitive for him to speculate on what grandma seen, heard, etc... He wasn't there.

As much as I do feel bad for all these young people who knew Shelby and Tyler... I have to ask how much time did they really spend with Tyler themselves? Including the boyfriend? We don't even know how much time Shelby herself spent with Tyler. We all heard Casey's friends saying what a wonderful mother she was... but we also know that 99% of the time, Cindy and George had Caylee. Not Casey. None of Casey's friends spent any real time with Caylee at all. But they felt they could say she was a good mother based on a splinter of a second in time.

My point is, yes, I feel bad for the boyfriend. It has to be awful knowing that Shelby was with him the day she murdered her own child. He'll live with it for the rest of his life. Same with her friends. I just don't think any of them should comment on the grandmother because she is the one suffering the most. She is the one whose grandchild was murdered by her own daughter. And to know that your own grandson was murdered in your own home... agony! Especially if she was in the home at the time... which we don't even know.

Prayers to all of them and their community. It will take a long time to heal. They've all lost something. But nothing more than what the grandmother has lost.

 

[Abby Normal]

He is Hispanic and many, many Hispanic men are very involved in child rearing and love little kids, much more than say a young man at that age from another ethnic background. In other words, they do not mind having a kid around them, they enjoy helping girlfriends out with the baby. They don't mind the child sleeping over.

Think of casey anthony's one boyfriend who allowed Caylee to spend the night and sleep in his bed as opposed to Anthony Lazarro who was fond of Caylee but was opposed to having her spend the night and really just wanted to be a free young adult without a child around to worry about.

Hispanic men don't tend to be that way. In their culture, children are a part of daily life. There is no compartmentalization. In other words, kids don't stay with sitters. If there is a wedding or quinceanera, babies and small children attend. So young men from that demographic tend to be a bit more cognizant of the needs of babies, than others young men.

I think this young man is credible. He was aware of how Shelby acted with her son and found nothing disturbing about it. He enjoyed Tyler and saw no reason why Shelby would have wanted to get rid of him.

snipped for space

I was trying to think of a way to say just that without being all "rah rah rah, Latino men are superior" or something. I'm (very) mixed and multicultural, but the culture I grew up most immersed in was a Mexican American one, and I have 9 (yes 9) latino brothers. now I'm married into a Puerto Rican family. It's not uncommon to see 13 year old boys dancing with babies at a wedding, or feeding them at home... they aren't burdened with this idea that babies spoil freedom, or ruin your life. They are easily accepted into daily life, whatever that daily life may be.

We have had so many acquaintances take issue with the fact that we don't really ever think to have babysitters... our first one was 8 years into parenting. And we've done it maybe 10 times total since then. People object and assert that we NEED it, but neither me or my husband have that mentality because of our cultural upbringing. People think we are rude when we decline an invitation to a coworker's home for a meal or game night that is intended to be sans kids, while we see an invitation that is intended to be sans kids sort of... odd... I guess. Like, if we're going to get a babysitter we'd go to a grown up movie, a fancy restaurant, or to a good old fashioned jazz club- places you can't take kids.

I know we can't judge an individual by cultural norms, and I wouldn't dare anyhow, but I do think that cultural norms are relevant at the very least. And IMO this happening would be even more mind boggling to someone raised in a culture where kids aren't a burden... and that's what I'm personally seeing in him, questioning Christine and just wanting answers. He doesn't understand.

MOO, I hope it isn't read as offensive or propagating stereotypes. I understand that generalities aren't conclusive to the individual.

 

[Abby Normal]

As a kid I lived on a farm and had run of 7 acres.. It was the best place ever.. We had a pond, creek and apple trees and a few dogs.. You could play outside with no worries.. Cross streets without worry and say hello to strangers..

Today I try to teach my children stranger danger and I think it's so unfair..

Have you read about the whole Free Range child movement? There's a blog and a book... the author claims that statistically our children are safer from strangers today, but less safe from parents. I've only taken a nominal look, I'm not endorsing her thoughts. I'm really into intuitive parenting, and I try and find the balance that is both intelligent and cohesive to my instincts on the matter. I think her premise is intriguing though... she's really big on allowing the same freedom we all had.

 

[dribble]

I went back to watch the video of the boyfriend again. I didn't realize before that it was 20 minutes long! It keeps stopping for me after a few minutes. I was able to watch just a few minutes longer this time. I will admit his tears seem genuine.

My gut still tells me he was so afraid of the "blunt" comments that as a young, confused, heartbroken, scared young man he felt he needed to save himself and make sure people/cops knew/didn't think there was any drugs involved. That's pretty much what I got out of that clip.

I hope I'm wrong and this guy has the 100% right intentions. I really do. I so want to feel that way as at this point I'm so mad at SD I want everything to be on her!

Gosh, it's all just so confusing. I feel bad for every single person involved, especially the little fella.

 

[AlmostGone]

Have you read about the whole Free Range child movement? There's a blog and a book... the author claims that statistically our children are safer from strangers today, but less safe from parents. I've only taken a nominal look, I'm not endorsing her thoughts. I'm really into intuitive parenting, and I try and find the balance that is both intelligent and cohesive to my instincts on the matter. I think her premise is intriguing though... she's really big on allowing the same freedom we all had.

I have never read her book but sounds interesting..I may take a peek at the blog some time, thank you!

 

[katydid23]

Have you read about the whole Free Range child movement? There's a blog and a book... the author claims that statistically our children are safer from strangers today, but less safe from parents. I've only taken a nominal look, I'm not endorsing her thoughts. I'm really into intuitive parenting, and I try and find the balance that is both intelligent and cohesive to my instincts on the matter. I think her premise is intriguing though... she's really big on allowing the same freedom we all had.

I look back at my childhood freedom fondly as well. I grew up in Los Altos, Calif in the 50's and 60's. A safe and clean beautiful suburb with a creek flowing behind our houses and lots of open space. We rode our bikes around freely, visiting friends wherever and whenever, not going home until dusk.

I moved my family to a very similar suburb in Ventura County. Our kids rode their bikes around and walked to their elementary school, trick or treated without us lurking right behind them. But it is indeed not strangers that are the biggest danger. IMO, it is the threats that lure them into dark places--like drugs/alcohol/casual sex etc.

To me, the freedom that I am afraid to allow is the freedom to allow them to make their own friends and choose their own cliques to hang out with. That is where the hidden dangers lie.

There is another thread that was started here in this forum, about the 18 yr old in Thousand Oaks Calif that od'ed on heroin and cocaine. His friends have been arrested for involuntary manslaughter. Those are kids the next town over and my daughter knows all of them socially. She grew up with them all. I have had several of them over to the house for birthday parties and graduation parties over the past decade. Then I read in the paper that one boy that I have known and loved and respected, his family included, was arrested for selling heroin and cocaine. His family I have known from school and sports functions. They are very involved and responsible parents. Right now they are devastated.

 

[lauriej]

Yes!!! Oh thank you thank you I'm NOT crazy! I was sure I'd seen that but hadn't been able to find footage anywhere. So why do you think he has it? If it was evidence, wouldn't it be bagged?

--as to LE carrying the not in evidence "unbagged" doll.

--i can't take credit for the thought------it was posted a few pages back after you brought up the doll-------LE had it with them that night as they took shelby to the recovery site, and then back to the house-------they were quite possibly using it for her to "show" them what she had done to baby tyler.