GUILTY MT - Sherry Arnold, 43, Sidney, 7 Jan 2012 - #3

[Noway]

Would the snow shovel dig through frozen ground? TIA

eta
or near-frozen (cold temps hit area since Jan. 7, IIRC)

 

[Eoanthropus Dawsoni]

Would the snow shovel dig through frozen ground? TIA

eta
or near-frozen (cold temps hit area since Jan. 7, IIRC)

The ground is frozen for at least a foot, probably two. In a normal winter it would frozen to at least five feet. Several weeks ago I needed to dig a small hole in the yard. I had to use a pick to break up the ground. My shovels would not even put a dent into the dirt.

This time of year the cemeteries do not even do burials. They wait until spring.

 

[MsFacetious]

Would the snow shovel dig through frozen ground? TIA

eta
or near-frozen (cold temps hit area since Jan. 7, IIRC)

It would just be a regular shovel... the snow shovel would be used to shovel snow. Most people don't carry those in their cars.

If you do get stuck odds are it isn't going to be in a bunch of snow. When I got stuck it was literally in less than in inch of snow.
Freaking differential on the truck... I will never pull off the side of the road again. EVER.

No shovel would dig through the frozen ground. Which is why I don't think it matters if they had a shovel.
Though if they did, I think it was for nefarious purposes and not for preparedness.
I don't believe this was so premeditated that they had a plan to dig through the frozen ground.

They could have concealed her... moving debri or even a bit of dirt with a spade... but that's it.
She isn't "buried" unless they had/found a grave dug already. :twocents:

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20562743,00.html

It appears to me that she was in the field from the road(looking at pic) as if she was running to get away.

I agree... there's no way she was running in the field to begin with.
So them accidentally hitting her and thinking she was dead... apparently wouldn't work.

If you accidentally hit someone and they run away... you certainly wouldn't chase them down.
Very weird... I hadn't pictured it that way with the field and everything.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Interesting that they seem to know the exact time she was kidnapped.... 6:40 AM. Wonder if they have a security video showing this crime.
My guess is that Spell confessed... being only 22 he could have been really scared and wanted to ease his conscience.

You're right, earlier reports seemed to mostly give a time range:

Arnold, 43, disappeared sometime between 6:30 and 6:45 a.m. on Saturday morning, according to police who will not specify how this timeframe was determined.

But when the citation was issued on the 17th LE specifically said 6:40 am:

January 17th: The original citation issued to Waters and Spell from the Sidney Police Department is released. The citation sets the time of the alleged kidnapping at 6:40 a.m. at 900 East Holly Street, which is located along the truck route Arnold may have been jogging.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Would the snow shovel dig through frozen ground? TIA

eta
or near-frozen (cold temps hit area since Jan. 7, IIRC)

A snow shovel wouldn't but a good, heavy spade might. Particularly if all they did was lift the turf.

I keep a spade in my vehicle because it can be used to move snow. A shovel is better at moving snow but cannot chop ice the way a spade can.

ETA: one reason to choose a location near a treeline is that in the lee side of a treeline, the ground temps can be dramatically higher than they are even as little as 25 feet away.

 

[Elley Mae]

You're right, earlier reports seemed to mostly give a time range:



But when the citation was issued on the 17th LE specifically said 6:40 am:

Makes me think that there may be a security or surveillance camera there in the area.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

A snow shovel wouldn't but a good, heavy spade might. Particularly if all they did was lift the turf.

I keep a spade in my vehicle because it can be used to move snow. A shovel is better at moving snow but cannot chop ice the way a spade can.

ETA: one reason to choose a location near a treeline is that in the lee side of a treeline, the ground temps can be dramatically higher than they are even as little as 25 feet away.

...and MSM is reporting that Sherry might have been buried in a shallow grave.

If she were buried on the lee side of a treeline would that provide it with enough protection to prevent significant wind erosion of the grave site even when it warms up and the ground is not frozen?

 

[Noway]

Makes me think that there may be a security or surveillance camera there in the area.

I would think the post office does. And to some extent the larger businesses like Sidney Sugars.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

It would just be a regular shovel... the snow shovel would be used to shovel snow. Most people don't carry those in their cars.

If you do get stuck odds are it isn't going to be in a bunch of snow. When I got stuck it was literally in less than in inch of snow.
Freaking differential on the truck... I will never pull off the side of the road again. EVER.

No shovel would dig through the frozen ground. Which is why I don't think it matters if they had a shovel.
Though if they did, I think it was for nefarious purposes and not for preparedness.
I don't believe this was so premeditated that they had a plan to dig through the frozen ground.

They could have concealed her... moving debri or even a bit of dirt with a spade... but that's it.
She isn't "buried" unless they had/found a grave dug already. :twocents:




I agree... there's no way she was running in the field to begin with.
So them accidentally hitting her and thinking she was dead... apparently wouldn't work.

If you accidentally hit someone and they run away... you certainly wouldn't chase them down.
Very weird... I hadn't pictured it that way with the field and everything.

Think it through though. You and I would want to make sure they were okay.

A criminal who doesn't want anyone to know they hit someone would want to silence anyone who witnessed the accident, which at the very least includes the person they hit.

Sadly though, I just don't think it was an accident.

 

[Noway]

snipped for space and content

...
No shovel would dig through the frozen ground. Which is why I don't think it matters if they had a shovel. ...

They could have concealed her... moving debri or even a bit of dirt with a spade... but that's it.

She isn't "buried" unless they had/found a grave dug already. :twocents:

...

BBM
I agree.

Early on I had wondered whether Sidney had snow on the ground when Sherry went missing. We had none in our area ... very little in the mountains around us then too.

But I still think they would have inclined to leave her in a remote place where they could get in/out fast ... not taking the time to bury her.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I have the rap sheet for Waters from mugshots.com, but I thought I'd seen a more detailed one somewhere. Does anyone know off hand where that is or if they've seen it too, because if not I'm going to look through the threads because I can't find it via google and when I do a Florida Vinelink offender search on him I get nada.

 

[Noway]

I have the rap sheet for Waters from mugshots.com, but I thought I'd seen a more detailed one somewhere. Does anyone know off hand where that is or if they've seen it too, because if not I'm going to look through the threads because I can't find it via google and when I do a Florida Vinelink offender search on him I get nada.

Websleuths Lester Waters 2007 Mug

This is KellyConQueso's post 196 on page 8 in Thread 2 (for reference).

Websleuths Lester Waters 2009 Mug

This is KCQ's post 244 on page 10 in Thread 2.
This is the link KCQ gave as source: http://www.dc.state.fl.us/appcommon/searchall.asp


And you can find list of cases at this link. You may have to type in his name if it times out.

 

[CBTampa]

I have the rap sheet for Waters from mugshots.com, but I thought I'd seen a more detailed one somewhere. Does anyone know off hand where that is or if they've seen it too, because if not I'm going to look through the threads because I can't find it via google and when I do a Florida Vinelink offender search on him I get nada.

When I went on the clerks site, I had to just type in Waters and then go to the L's. It wouldn't come up otherwise.

 

[Noway]

I don't know if anything was found in other states under the other names he used (Chapman and West).

Mug

 

[Noway]

I do tend to overdo it on the bookmarking.

 

[GrainneDhu]

...and MSM is reporting that Sherry might have been buried in a shallow grave.

If she were buried on the lee side of a treeline would that provide it with enough protection to prevent significant wind erosion of the grave site even when it warms up and the ground is not frozen?

Oh yeah. There's all sorts of plants that grow well only in the lee side of a treeline because they cannot tolerate the wind or swings of temperature outside that little micro-environment.

To me, the biggest problem is that if her body is not located by mid-spring, the new growth of plant life will conceal her body too well to be located.

The best search would be with HRD dogs but there's just too much territory, too many potential places to check.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I don't know if anything was found in other states under the other names he used (Chapman and West).

Mug

I can't find a darn thing on those names, and for some reason what I did find on someone who more than likely was Waters on one of those search sites is no longer there. Weird, weird, weird.

BTW, is that the only list of priors you've seen on W? I thought there were more of them, but I can't seem to find it, so I'm wondering if I'm mistaken. TIA.

 

[CBTampa]

I would think just because he has an allias that any charges with a final disposition would be filed in his legal name. It sounds like he has used these allias and then filed charges under his true idenity.

What I found was in the Clerks' Office. Florida being the Sunshine state that it is, it is all public record.

I can't believe that there has been no updates on this case from the authorites. Just rehashing everything we already know.

Although, some folks think that the male body that they just found is very odd, if it not connected to the Arnold case.

 

[4UIhelp]

a question to ponder.....is the time line of kidnapping (at dark) to the time the sun(dawn/daylight) came up.......I dont think these guys wanted to drive fast(fear of being stopped) nor be seen during daylite hours hideing her.......so how much time did they have from there estimated time of kidnapping....not much darkness by 7:40 its pretty light out......could have been north up hwy 16 to culbertson(montana side)or to alexander into williston.....In my opinion, anywhere with in a hour drive(without speeding) from sidney is an area to zone ..... and I hope everyone includeing past culbertson is looking there land over, 1acre or 10,000 check...the family needs her home......

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I would think just because he has an allias that any charges with a final disposition would be filed in his legal name. It sounds like he has used these allias and then filed charges under his true idenity.

What I found was in the Clerks' Office. Florida being the Sunshine state that it is, it is all public record.

I can't believe that there has been no updates on this case from the authorites. Just rehashing everything we already know.

Although, some folks think that the male body that they just found is very odd, if it not connected to the Arnold case.

So far the only sites I've found are those that can look up court information for one particular county, and FL has a bunch of them.

I'm only interested in finding it because I'd just like to make sure that court records for Waters don't indicate that he has been in other parts of FL.

TIA