My doubts about the case

[BlueCrab]

Who is Doug Smith and David Iniouy?

TisHerself,

Doug Stine was Burke Ramsey's best friend. They lived 5 blocks from one another.

Nathan Inouye was Doug Stine's live-in caregiver while the parents, Glen and Susan Stine, worked at Colorado University.

JMO

 

[TisHerself]

Burke Ramsey was two weeks shy of his tenth birthday when JonBenet died. In Colorado no one under the age of 10 can be charged with any crime.

I have studied the JonBenet case for years, ever since she died, and I have never learned anything about the case to convince me that Burke didn't take her life, albeit unintentionally. I continue to believe that her death resulted from a sexual game she and Burke were playing that went too far. I believe that when he inserted the paint handle into her vagina to "explore," (causing the slight injury described in the autopsy) she cried out (possibly) and tried to get up. Afraid she'd tell on him, in a knee-jerk reaction, Burke yanked the cord, which was already around her neck as part of the game, and immediately struck her with the Maglite. In his panic, he jerked the cord again and again.

Michael Baden said on a CTV special about the case that Burke needs to be looked at.

Cyril Wecht said there was nothing done to JonBenet that someone Burke's age at the time couldn't have done.

I say BDI is the only theory that fits.

imo

That is about the sickest thing I have ever heard A 6yr old and a 9 yr old playing that kind of sick sex game. As the mother of 4 grown children 3 sons 1 daughter I cannot even imagine such a thing. So you will forgive me if I just can't buy that. If Burke was sexually abusing JonBenet then they have one sick kid there. Where in God's name would he even come up with that stuff? And if he was they better have been getting him some kind of therapy, or heaven help any female who comes into his life.:doh:

 

[KATKAT19691]

I agree with Ivy, Burke could be a very sick little boy. How is it any harder to believe that he did it and not so hard to believe that her mother did it. I think it was Burke and that his parents are covering for him as sad as it is. There are a lot of sick kids out there. With all the evidence, Burke is the only one the fits everything. I think he was sexually abusing his sis for a long time and parents were not aware. It does happen and it happens a lot. I don't know what happened that night but I do know Burke was involved. Dr. Baden was correct in saying he should be looked at.
Kat

 

[sissi]

That is about the sickest thing I have ever heard A 6yr old and a 9 yr old playing that kind of sick sex game. As the mother of 4 grown children 3 sons 1 daughter I cannot even imagine such a thing. So you will forgive me if I just can't buy that. If Burke was sexually abusing JonBenet then they have one sick kid there. Where in God's name would he even come up with that stuff? And if he was they better have been getting him some kind of therapy, or heaven help any female who comes into his life.:doh:

I would find it extremely unlikely for a nine year old to being doing such a thing, especially a child who has neither been abused nor exhibited any symptoms of mental illness before or after the crime.
Does anyone recall Shapiro finding a piece of the broken paint brush on the lawn,as well as some matching rope ,others found a baseball bat that was in an area where the children didn't play. This indicates ,IMO,a few things dropped by the intruder as he left,not Burke.

 

[TisHerself]

Sorry I just don't buy that a 9yr old was sexually abusing his sister for a long time. I agree with Sissi a child that age is not going to commit those kind of sexual acts unless he has been abused that way himself. Nor do I believe he was doing that for a long time and her parents never knew I think that's absurd. Further more if these accusations are not true there is a young man out there trying to live his life who has to listen to this stuff about himself.

 

[KATKAT19691]

Sorry I just don't buy that a 9yr old was sexually abusing his sister for a long time. I agree with Sissi a child that age is not going to commit those kind of sexual acts unless he has been abused that way himself. Nor do I believe he was doing that for a long time and her parents never knew I think that's absurd. Further more if these accusations are not true there is a young man out there trying to live his life who has to listen to this stuff about himself.

Who to say he had not been abused by someone. You know the older brother could have been involved on the abuse also.
Kat
JMO

 

[KATKAT19691]

Sorry I just don't buy that a 9yr old was sexually abusing his sister for a long time. I agree with Sissi a child that age is not going to commit those kind of sexual acts unless he has been abused that way himself. Nor do I believe he was doing that for a long time and her parents never knew I think that's absurd. Further more if these accusations are not true there is a young man out there trying to live his life who has to listen to this stuff about himself.

Go to this link to read her full story. There are lost of sick people out there, here is a passage. "
"It was a sunny afternoon, and my parents were at a church function when my 13-year-old brother called me into his bedroom to show me some magazine pictures. "This is how a man and woman have babies," he told me, pointing to a photo of a naked man and woman having sex. My eyes grew wide as he turned the pages. I'd never seen *advertiser censored* before. "You want to try it, just for fun?" he asked, as he stuffed the Penthouse magazine under his mattress. "You're too young to have a baby anyway," he assured me. I followed innocently as he led me to a twin bed stored in the basement. Instructing me to undress, he did the same. Then he fondled me. I was only seven. ":twocents:


This is the link to that story and many more like them. Sorry to bring you into the real world.I will find some other sites for you to reference.
I Was Sexually Abused - Women

Kat

 

[Ivy]

http://www.dodgeglobe.com/stories/092299/nat_boy.shtml

9-year-old boy admits leading gang rape of 8-year-old sister

ST. PAUL, Minn. (AP) -- A 9-year-old boy has admitted to instigating and participating in the gang rape of his 8-year-old sister, police said Tuesday.

The boy persuaded his sister to enter an abandoned house and ''to some degree directed the activities of the others,'' the St. Paul Police Department said.

Seven boys -- ages 6 to 13 -- are suspected in the attack. Police questioned three Monday at an elementary school and the other four Tuesday.

The victim and her attackers were ''playmates,'' police said.

Police said four of the boys raped the girl, including her brother.

''It's a bad situation,'' police spokesman Michael Jordan said. ''It's a terrible impact certainly on this little girl and possibly some of the boys.''

No arrests have been made. A photo lineup was planned for Wednesday for the victim to identify her attackers.

The attack occurred on Sept. 7 or 8, but wasn't reported to police until last week by the victim's mother.

Originally, the girl had told police that one of her brothers heard her cries and tried to help, but at least two of the suspects stopped him. That brother then left to get an older brother, who was able to rescue her, she told police.

After questioning seven boys who were in the vacant house at the time of the attack, police determined that her brother had been involved and had told her not to tell her mother what happened.

And another case:

http://www.channel3000.com/news/2235457/detail.html

Fond Du Lac Boy, 9, Accused Of Assaulting Young Girls
Alleged Assaults Take Place In Homes, Cars, Fort

FOND DU LAC, Wis. -- A 9-year-old boy accused of sexually assaulting three girls of ages 5 to 9 may also have had sexual contact with four others, police say.

Police Capt. Bill Macowski said Thursday that after the initial investigation, officers received information that the boy may have had sexual contact with four more girls, of ages 4 to 7.

A Fond du Lac police report says the boy told investigators he was disgusted by his behavior, but couldn't seem to stop. He also blamed the girls for the sexual contact.

The boy has been referred to juvenile authorities on three counts of first-degree sexual assault of a child.

Police first received a report of the boy sexually assaulting a 9-year-old girl last March. But after receiving conflicting information, investigators closed the case.

Then on May 14, police received another complaint about sexual contact between the boy and a 5-year-old and 8-year-old girl.

The report says the sexual contact happened at the children's homes, in a fort they built, in cars in the parking lot of their apartment building and near garbage bins.

"These kids all play around each other and I think it just needs to be handled before other incidents happens and then it becomes a bigger issue," neighbor Erica Ojeda said.

 

[sissi]

http://www.dodgeglobe.com/stories/092299/nat_boy.shtml

9-year-old boy admits leading gang rape of 8-year-old sister

ST. PAUL, Minn. (AP) -- A 9-year-old boy has admitted to instigating and participating in the gang rape of his 8-year-old sister, police said Tuesday.

The boy persuaded his sister to enter an abandoned house and ''to some degree directed the activities of the others,'' the St. Paul Police Department said.

Seven boys -- ages 6 to 13 -- are suspected in the attack. Police questioned three Monday at an elementary school and the other four Tuesday.

The victim and her attackers were ''playmates,'' police said.

Police said four of the boys raped the girl, including her brother.

''It's a bad situation,'' police spokesman Michael Jordan said. ''It's a terrible impact certainly on this little girl and possibly some of the boys.''

No arrests have been made. A photo lineup was planned for Wednesday for the victim to identify her attackers.

The attack occurred on Sept. 7 or 8, but wasn't reported to police until last week by the victim's mother.

Originally, the girl had told police that one of her brothers heard her cries and tried to help, but at least two of the suspects stopped him. That brother then left to get an older brother, who was able to rescue her, she told police.

After questioning seven boys who were in the vacant house at the time of the attack, police determined that her brother had been involved and had told her not to tell her mother what happened.

And another case:

http://www.channel3000.com/news/2235457/detail.html

Fond Du Lac Boy, 9, Accused Of Assaulting Young Girls
Alleged Assaults Take Place In Homes, Cars, Fort

FOND DU LAC, Wis. -- A 9-year-old boy accused of sexually assaulting three girls of ages 5 to 9 may also have had sexual contact with four others, police say.

Police Capt. Bill Macowski said Thursday that after the initial investigation, officers received information that the boy may have had sexual contact with four more girls, of ages 4 to 7.

A Fond du Lac police report says the boy told investigators he was disgusted by his behavior, but couldn't seem to stop. He also blamed the girls for the sexual contact.

The boy has been referred to juvenile authorities on three counts of first-degree sexual assault of a child.

Police first received a report of the boy sexually assaulting a 9-year-old girl last March. But after receiving conflicting information, investigators closed the case.

Then on May 14, police received another complaint about sexual contact between the boy and a 5-year-old and 8-year-old girl.

The report says the sexual contact happened at the children's homes, in a fort they built, in cars in the parking lot of their apartment building and near garbage bins.

"These kids all play around each other and I think it just needs to be handled before other incidents happens and then it becomes a bigger issue," neighbor Erica Ojeda said.

Yep! And there are internet serial killers but I don't expect you are one.
These incidents are rare (thank God) and newsworthy, and I can't presume to understand the reasons for them occurring, but "in others homes" in "abandoned houses" suggests there was a lack of supervision. There are times Patsy hired babysitters ,but at no time has she ever been accused of leaving her children without adult supervision. I like you Ivy,but I must strongly disagree with the suggestion that a nine year old was responsible for this horrific murder.

 

[Ivy]

Thanks. I like you too, sissi, but that doesn't change the fact that Burke could have done it. He cannot be excluded just because he was only 9 when JonBenet died. He was in the house when JonBenet died. According to experts such as Wecht and Baden, he was physically capable of doing everything that was done to her. His parents lied about his being asleep during the 911 call. Why? Not only that, but on the 911 tape, John is heard to shout at Burke, "We're not talking to you!" (Why would he do that?) Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl of pineapple. Burke's red Swiss Army knife was found near JonBenet's body. In an interview with the police psychologist, Burke said, "the killer took a knife..." even though the police hadn't told anyone, including Burke or his parents about finding the knife near the body. The sexual injuries found on JonBenet's body were very minimal, not indicative of an adult perp. I could go on, but you get the idea.

imo

 

[sissi]

IMO the sexual injuries were not "gentle" injuries, she bled and had a tear in her hymen. IMO the injuries were caused by the paintbrush within minutes of her dying,(my reasoning on this is based on the lack of acute inflammation which indicates there was no time for the body to react to the injury) The case for chronic molestation accounting for chronic inflammation is still undecided by the best of the experts ,so I will not try to influence anyone's thinking on this. However I hold to my opinion that it was caused by something much more benign than molestation.
I would look to the adults, in whose care she was , before suggesting her brother, if I believed she had been molested. This would put another twist on the crime, IMO, it would suggest she had to be murdered before leaving for Charlevois and out of the control of her molestor. If someone gained entry into that house on Christmas night, can we be secure that they didn't visit her on other nights? This crime has too many possibilities IMO, however Burke as the perp isn't one.

edit to add..Merv said..was she taken, did they strangle her?

 

[TisHerself]

"We are not talking to you" Could have meant anything, to say that it meant he did it is a far stretch. The sexual abuse was anything but gentle I also IMHO believe it was close to death. I also do not believe that Burke did it nor do I think for one second he was sexually abusing her. Could someone answer me about the duct tape that was on her mouth and hands they said that it was not found in the home. Do they know where it came from?

 

[BlueCrab]

"We are not talking to you" Could have meant anything, to say that it meant he did it is a far stretch. The sexual abuse was anything but gentle I also IMHO believe it was close to death. I also do not believe that Burke did it nor do I think for one second he was sexually abusing her. Could someone answer me about the duct tape that was on her mouth and hands they said that it was not found in the home. Do they know where it came from?

Tis,

The "We're not talking to you!" comment by John, aimed at Burke, as picked up in the enhanced 911 tape, was loud and harsh. John's comment helps prove the Ramseys were up and about long before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 A.M., and it helps prove the Ramseys were lying about Burke being asleep in bed. Why were the Ramseys lying and covering for Burke?

The Shurtape brand of black duct tape was found on JonBenet's mouth only -- not on her hands. Her hands were tied at the wrists by 1/4" white nylon cord manufactured by Stansport. The roll from which the tape was taken was never found, as was the rest of the white nylon cord, which sold in 50' and 100' rolls. No matching tape or cord was found elsewhere in the house.

The missing tape and cord strongly suggest a fifth person was in the house that night and took the items with him when he left the house. Other crime scene items are also missing.

JMO

 

[Ivy]

Yes, BC, the missing tape and cord could mean a fifth person (I suppose you mean Doug Stine) was in the house that night, and that he took them when he high-tailed it out of there.

But John, Patsy or Burke could have simply walked out with the tape and cord. None of the Ramseys was searched before leaving the house. John could have disposed of the items when he went on one of his walks later.

Also, Pam Paugh could have removed the items when she did her famous sweep of the house. If she removed the tape and cord, she may not have known it, since they could have been hidden inside something. Only a partial inventory of what Pam removed was recorded by police.

 

[BlueCrab]

Yes, BC, the missing tape and cord could mean a fifth person (I suppose you mean Doug Stine) was in the house that night, and that he took them when he high-tailed it out of there.

But John, Patsy or Burke could have simply walked out with the tape and cord. None of the Ramseys was searched before leaving the house. John could have disposed of the items when he went on one of his walks later.

Also, Pam Paugh could have removed the items when she did her famous sweep of the house. If she removed the tape and cord, she may not have known it, since they could have been hidden inside something. Only a partial inventory of what Pam removed was recorded by police.

Ivy,

I agree with everything you say in your above post, but please remember that nowhere in the house was there found a piece of black tape or a piece of white cord that matched what was found on JonBenet. It suggests the tape and cord were brought into the house that night, which in turn suggests premeditation.

JMO

 

[Ivy]

BC, Auntie Pam could have removed incriminating evidence, such as (but not limited to) a picture that had the same kind of cord and/or tape on the back for hanging. Anyway, not every nook and cranny in the house was searched, and neither was John's golf bag, as far as I've ever heard.

Speaking of the golf bag, why was John reported to have told someone to make sure to tell Pam to get his golf bag when she did her sweep of the house? Was he thinking of golfing so soon after his little daughter was murdered?

imo

 

[twizzler333]

I find that odd too to ask for the golf bag but looking at it from my own father's perspective, he would ask for it too he said (even though I cannot imagine thinking of anything like golf at a time like that but men apparently are different- according to Dad). He says that someone would steal a good expensive set of clubs in a skinny minute. Of course this is coming from a golf addict and a man who treats them better than he does anything else in the world! LOL. He actually puts them in his closet in his room so they will be near him and nobody can take them! Maybe John was a nut like that too! Who knows? But I do find that strange if it is indeed true. That would be the LAST thing I would be thinking about, but I am a mother!

 

[BlueCrab]

There is no confirmation that I know of that John had asked Pam nor anyone else to get his golf bag from the house. I recall something about a rumor re' an overheard whisper, but that's all. If I'm wrong, I'd appreciate the source being noted. Thanks.

JMO

 

[Ivy]

From Steve Thomas's book, page 48

John was overhead to ask somebody quietly, "Did you get my golf bag?" When I learned of that statement, it seemed totally out of order. There had been two golf bags in the house, but he had not specified which one he wanted. ]Neither bag was collected by police."

There are those who don't believe anything Thomas says. I don't believe in his PDI theory, but I also don't believe he's a liar, or that he fabricated the John-wanted-his-golf-bag story. In his book he didn't name the person who heard John say it, but ST and whoever told him about it, know that person's identity.

imo

 

[BlueCrab]

From Steve Thomas's book, page 48

John was overhead to ask somebody quietly, "Did you get my golf bag?" When I learned of that statement, it seemed totally out of order. There had been two golf bags in the house, but he had not specified which one he wanted. ]Neither bag was collected by police."

There are those who don't believe anything Thomas says. I don't believe in his PDI theory, but I also don't believe he's a liar, or that he fabricated the John-wanted-his-golf-bag story. In his book he didn't name the person who heard John say it, but ST and whoever told him about it, know that person's identity.

imo

Ivy,

Steve Thomas has little credibility in my book -- and he does indeed lie. For instance, he lied unashamedly about Patsy being the only one of 73 tested whose handwriting couldn't be eliminated as the writer of the ransom note. Many people still believe that whopper. Thomas' conclusion was directly opposite from what the CBI concluded about Patsy's handwriting -- yet he referenced the CBI as the source when he told that bare-faced lie. Although Steve Thomas was allowed to resign to save face, I'm confident he was told to resign or be fired because of that lie.

I doubt Thomas heard anything from anybody in regard to the alleged whisper from John Ramsey asking "someone" about his golf bags.

JMO